New 100-volt 1860wh MSX's Arriving

[photorph]

2 hours ago, Flying W said:

This is very tempting, the capacity the 100v needed available from Jason!  

@photorph is this a one time order from ewheels or will there be others after this order is sold out? 

I'm not willing to deal with the back lash of buying another wheel a week or two before out 1st baby is born 

There should be more.  Demand for these has been fairly high. 

[Flying W]

3 hours ago, photorph said:

There should be more.  Demand for these has been fairly high. 

I think I found my next wheel 

[ZenRyder]

I have this on order from eWheels and am eagerly waiting for it to come in. Can we talk about what kind of range the MSX should get with the 100v 1845wh configuration? You mentioned that it will be similar to the Nikola 100v 1845wh. What range is that getting?  One of the advantages of having the higher range is that it is understood when running at higher speeds you're not going to get that maximum amount of range. Some say, "Who needs 80 miles of range, you can't ride that long." But at 30+ mph, you're not going to get that anyway. The question is related to how much more range can you get with these higher configurations?

eWheels website is not updated to show the more recent 100v and higher battery watt hour stats. I know it depends on the weight of the rider at average 20 mph speed and all that, but let's just compare to the general stats that are already out there.

Nikola 84v 1600wh - 70 miles

Nikola 84v 2100wh - ??

Nikola 100v 1845wh - ??

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-nikola-1600wh-battery-2000w-motor-3-wide-tire/

MSX 84v 1600wh - 80 miles

MSX 100v 1230wh - ??

MSX 100v 1845wh - ??

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-msuper-x-msx-1600wh-battery-2000w-motor/

Will the MSX with 100v 1845wh have more range than the 84v 1600wh assuming you are at the same average speed? Can someone with experience with these wheels, fill in some blanks for us here?

Thoughts?

 

[Gaz Bon]

2 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

MSX 84v 1600wh - 80 miles

🤣😂 if only 

[ZenRyder]

2 minutes ago, Gaz Bon said:

🤣😂 if only 

Well, this is a general stat with a 150 lb rider averaging 20 mph, right? Let's talk real numbers then. What are you getting with your MSX? Average speed, etc.

[meepmeepmayer]

Assume 20-25Wh/km (32-40Wh/mile) as a realistic estimate (~80kg/~180lbs rider) for working out the ranges of all battery sizes for these faster wheels where you average maybe 40kph/25mph.

So for 1845Wh that gives 74-92 km (45-57 miles) as a baseline estimate.

Of course you can blow through it much faster by going top speed, or double the range by going really slow. It all depends on how fast you ride.

[Jason McNeil]

31 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

eWheels website is not updated to show the more recent 100v and higher battery watt hour stats. I know it depends on the weight of the rider at average 20 mph speed and all that, but let's just compare to the general stats that are already out there.

Nikola 84v 1600wh - 70 miles

Nikola 84v 2100wh - ??

Nikola 100v 1845wh - ??

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-nikola-1600wh-battery-2000w-motor-3-wide-tire/

MSX 84v 1600wh - 80 miles

MSX 100v 1230wh - ??

MSX 100v 1845wh - ??

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-msuper-x-msx-1600wh-battery-2000w-motor/

Hmm, time to do a bit of range normalization on the those pages, typically a figure of 25Wh/mile is used a reference. Range estimates can be problematic, because if the figures on a >1600Wh assume that the Rider is operating at a higher speed than a lower powered Wheel, then this creates confusion among new Buyers, 'why does a 1600Wh Nikola only get 50 miles, when a KS 16S gets 33.6?' Even if the manufacturers range figures are reigned in, there's questions about why one's purported ranges are less. 

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Assume 20-25Wh/km (32-40Wh/mile) as a realistic estimate (~80kg/~180lbs rider) for working out the ranges of all battery sizes for these faster wheels where you average maybe 40kph/25mph.

So for 1845Wh that gives 74-92 km (45-57 miles) as a baseline estimate.

Of course you can blow through it much faster by going top speed, or double the range by going really slow. It all depends on how fast you ride.

I'm astonished at how body position greatly affects consumption, at least during steady state cruising.

If you need high range, just get a seat. I don't like seats, I won't do them, but testing seated versus standing the difference is somewhere between 1/2 to 1/2 (maybe 60% consumption when seated?).

Gosh, if you were to tuck forward when seated, wear tight clothing, no backpack, basically think Lycra time trial bicyclists, you'd just ride forever on a 1600.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, ZenRyder said:

I have this on order from eWheels and am eagerly waiting for it to come in. Can we talk about what kind of range the MSX should get with the 100v 1845wh configuration? You mentioned that it will be similar to the Nikola 100v 1845wh. What range is that getting?  One of the advantages of having the higher range is that it is understood when running at higher speeds you're not going to get that maximum amount of range. Some say, "Who needs 80 miles of range, you can't ride that long." But at 30+ mph, you're not going to get that anyway. The question is related to how much more range can you get with these higher configurations?

eWheels website is not updated to show the more recent 100v and higher battery watt hour stats. I know it depends on the weight of the rider at average 20 mph speed and all that, but let's just compare to the general stats that are already out there.

Nikola 84v 1600wh - 70 miles

Nikola 84v 2100wh - ??

Nikola 100v 1845wh - ??

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-nikola-1600wh-battery-2000w-motor-3-wide-tire/

MSX 84v 1600wh - 80 miles

MSX 100v 1230wh - ??

MSX 100v 1845wh - ??

https://www.ewheels.com/product/new-gotway-msuper-x-msx-1600wh-battery-2000w-motor/

Will the MSX with 100v 1845wh have more range than the 84v 1600wh assuming you are at the same average speed? Can someone with experience with these wheels, fill in some blanks for us here?

Thoughts?

 

I did a formal range test (the same route and speeds that I do on all wheels).

• 84-volt 1600wh Nikola achieved 50 usable (no restrictions) miles and 54-miles until kicked off the wheel
• 100-volt 1845wh Nikola achieved 60 usable miles and 64-miles until kicked off the wheel.

 

[ZenRyder]

9 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I did a formal range test (the same route and speeds that I do on all wheels).

• 84-volt 1600wh Nikola achieved 50 usable (no restrictions) miles and 54-miles until kicked off the wheel
• 100-volt 1845wh Nikola achieved 60 usable miles and 64-miles until kicked off the wheel.

 

Looks like @meepmeepmayer was pretty accurate with the 32wh per mile number for an average sized rider. You could get higher for the flyweight guys, but a regular rider looks like it's about 32wh per mile. @Marty Backe's numbers show just slightly worse at 31wh for the 100v 1834wh. 

Now, since the MSX has a larger wheel (19" vs 16" on the Nikola),  my understanding is that it will get more mileage with the same battery/voltage configuration. Do you have a video Marty with a range test on the MSX? If we calculate the number of wh per mile with the 100v 1200wh MSX configuration, then we can project the 100v 1845wh range.

[Marty Backe]

21 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

Looks like @meepmeepmayer was pretty accurate with the 32wh per mile number for an average sized rider. You could get higher for the flyweight guys, but a regular rider looks like it's about 32wh per mile. @Marty Backe's numbers show just slightly worse at 31wh for the 100v 1834wh. 

Now, since the MSX has a larger wheel (19" vs 16" on the Nikola),  my understanding is that it will get more mileage with the same battery/voltage configuration. Do you have a video Marty with a range test on the MSX? If we calculate the number of wh per mile with the 100v 1200wh MSX configuration, then we can project the 100v 1845wh range.

Yes, there should be a MSX Range test in my MSX playlist.

[ZenRyder]

1 hour ago, Jason McNeil said:

Hmm, time to do a bit of range normalization on the those pages, typically a figure of 25Wh/mile is used a reference. Range estimates can be problematic, because if the figures on a >1600Wh assume that the Rider is operating at a higher speed than a lower powered Wheel, then this creates confusion among new Buyers, 'why does a 1600Wh Nikola only get 50 miles, when a KS 16S gets 33.6?' Even if the manufacturers range figures are reigned in, there's questions about why one's purported ranges are less. 

I agree that it would be good to put some real world (normalized) estimates on the website with comments regarding the range high/low based on speed/weight. It looks like the 32wh per mile is a better gauge of actual average miles at this point for the Nikola. But different wheels have different metrics due to wheel size, efficiency, etc. I think we should keep the comparison  using apples to apples. I know readers might get lazy and assume they can ride at a higher speed and get the same mileage, but it just needs to be clarified that is not the case. Wheels with a lower top speed, would simply get a higher wh per mile number because they will generally be more efficient since they cannot go faster. Why not give a wh per mile range with a calculated low and high distance.

For example Nikola = 25-35wh efficiency which generally provides  45-64 miles of range based on actual weight and speed. Then buyers can calculate their own weight and desired speed to determine what kind of range they need. They can also decide if they need the 100v and can live with the lower wh battery or if they'll need the higher one.

 

[xorbe]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

I'm astonished at how body position greatly affects consumption, at least during steady state cruising.

If you need high range, just get a seat. I don't like seats, I won't do them, but testing seated versus standing the difference is somewhere between 1/2 to 1/2 (maybe 60% consumption when seated?).

Gosh, if you were to tuck forward when seated, wear tight clothing, no backpack, basically think Lycra time trial bicyclists, you'd just ride forever on a 1600.

I can suggest why.  When you sit down, you are not just removing (body width)*(approx 20") of wind resistance, but also reducing the most offensive torque correction required.

Edited October 29, 2019 by xorbe

[ZenRyder]

25 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Yes, there should be a MSX Range test in my MSX playlist.

There are a couple of range tests, but mostly in comparison to the KSXL18. Did you conclude that the range was 57 miles on the MSX (1600?). If so that would be 28wh per mile. Can you confirm. I also think you said that the KSXL18 has about a 70 mile range? Although there was some confusion about the accuracy of the app, Is that accurate? If so, then that would be 1554wh / 70 miles = 22 wh per mile. So, the lower number of wh per mile the more efficient the wheel and longer the range.

Preliminary comparison:

Nikola = 30 wh per mile

MSX = 28 wh per mile

XL18 = 22 wh per mile?

Is this generally correct? Please adjust per your opinion/conclusions @Marty Backe or @Jason McNeil. I'm just spit balling here looking for answers...

Is it just me or would this be really helpful? Then we would simply divide the wh of the battery capacity by the wh per mile to understand the general range of the wheel, right? Then, when the manufacturer increases the wh capacity of the battery in subsequent upgrades, you just do the math for the wheel efficiency to determine the extended range the extra capacity will provide.

[Marty Backe]

37 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

There are a couple of range tests, but mostly in comparison to the KSXL18. Did you conclude that the range was 57 miles on the MSX (1600?). If so that would be 28wh per mile. Can you confirm. I also think you said that the KSXL18 has about a 70 mile range? Although there was some confusion about the accuracy of the app, Is that accurate? If so, then that would be 1554wh / 70 miles = 22 wh per mile. So, the lower number of wh per mile the more efficient the wheel and longer the range.

Preliminary comparison:

Nikola = 30 wh per mile

MSX = 28 wh per mile

XL18 = 22 wh per mile?

Is this generally correct? Please adjust per your opinion/conclusions @Marty Backe or @Jason McNeil. I'm just spit balling here looking for answers...

Is it just me or would this be really helpful? Then we would simply divide the wh of the battery capacity by the wh per mile to understand the general range of the wheel, right? Then, when the manufacturer increases the wh capacity of the battery in subsequent upgrades, you just do the math for the wheel efficiency to determine the extended range the extra capacity will provide.

I haven't watched the video in some time. If I said 57-miles then it's 57 miles.

Yes, the KingSong wheels get more miles on the same charge. The consensus here is that the additional KS range is because they allow the wheels to run to a lower voltage than Gotway.

This isn't an exact science. I think it's just about worthless trying to equate watt-hours to miles because it's dependent on the weight of the wheel, the rider, and their gear, and the weather and riding conditions (wind, hills, etc.).

I do all my range tests on the same route and conditions as best I can so that I can come up with relative comparisons between the wheels. My numbers are not meant to be absolute. 

[ZenRyder]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

This isn't an exact science. I think it's just about worthless trying to equate watt-hours to miles because it's dependent on the weight of the wheel, the rider, and their gear, and the weather and riding conditions (wind, hills, etc.).

I do all my range tests on the same route and conditions as best I can so that I can come up with relative comparisons between the wheels. My numbers are not meant to be absolute. 

With respect, I disagree as to the worth of this information. IMHO a wheel's efficiency and range should be more science and less subjective artistic interpretation. I understand that you don't want to become the person responsible for rating wheel efficiency.  However, your testing is some of the best that's been documented and no one has quite the wheel collection that you do (your signature photo says it all).  Own it. 

[atdlzpae]

31 minutes ago, ZenRyder said:

IMHO a wheel's efficiency and range should be more science and less subjective artistic interpretation.

For my fat ass (120kg) it's around 52Wh per mile on 84V 1600Wh MSX based on my recent range test.

And so "you can expect around this much if you weight XX" and "test it for yourself" are the best answers. Making it an exact science is much work for very little return.

Edited October 29, 2019 by atdlzpae

[ZenRyder]

14 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

For my fat ass (120kg) it's around 52Wh per mile on 84V 1600Wh MSX based on my recent range test.

And so "you can expect around this much if you weight XX" and "test it for yourself" are the best answers. Making it an exact science is much work for very little return.

Yeah, so buy or borrow one and "test it for yourself". Or just guess and hope you're right. Not everyone wants to be doing this kind guesswork when they are dropping $2k for a wheel.

Let's say you changed jobs and your new job is now 35 miles instead of 28 miles (round trip). Your range on the MSX seems limited to 30 miles based on your 52 wh efficiency (weight + riding speed), not enough range to make it. With a simple calculation you can now determine that you will get about 40 wh on the XL18 and your range on that will most likely be about 39 miles. Perfect, that wheel should work for you. Thanks for giving a good example of why this could be helpful for those who don't want to roll the dice with their money and wheel selection.

[mrelwood]

 

3 hours ago, ZenRyder said:

Let's say you changed jobs and your new job is now 35 miles instead of 28 miles (round trip). Your range on the MSX seems limited to 30 miles based on your 52 wh efficiency (weight + riding speed), not enough range to make it.

Sigh... that’s not how it works. Cars can run at full power until a dead stop as they run out of gas. Electric vehicles do not work that way. When the battery is full, it will provide the maximum power. But the available power will start decreasing immediately. Due to this all manufacturers limit the top speed in some way as the battery goes down. When one calls the range done is up to the rider. Would you ride to work and back daily with the last 10 miles being limited to 10mph or below?

 

If one wants rough mileage estimates without doing much math, the result gets so out of whack that it doesn’t help anyone. For example:

1. I’ve never gotten more than 1320Wh into my 1600Wh MSX while charging. And even that was after crawling speeds on level surfaces, and tilt-stop at the slightest incline. If you calculate Wh/mile with 1600Wh, you are already off by 25%. For usable range it’s even more off.

2. Powerful wheels usually have more untapped power. If my MSX limits me to 35km/h on a level surface, the battery is practically dead in my book, since it would pretty much die in a medium incline. But the 35km/h is still the max speed for a 840Wh 16S. I rode the 16S happily despite being limited to 20km/h when the battery was very low. Add the lower allowed voltage of the 16S, and the Wh/mile gets even more skewed.

3. While different models do get slightly different ranges, the difference between the models is a tiny fraction of everything else that’s involved. Variation between models may be 20%. Everything else: 200%.

Either calculate all the way or don’t worry about the exact range, because such thing doesn’t exist. No 1000Wh wheel will get you as far as a 1600Wh wheel, that should be enough precision. And all 1600Wh wheels will get you 30-80 miles of range, depending on everything.

[photorph]

Too many variables in range, if someone asks me I tell them of the general 20-30 wh/mile, and it can potentially be even higher than that.

 

Best way is just to test it yourself.  This MSX will have the most range vs other MSXs we have, that’s the only definitive range claim I can make.

[meepmeepmayer]

9 hours ago, ZenRyder said:

Looks like @meepmeepmayer was pretty accurate with the 32wh per mile number for an average sized rider.

It just depends very strongly on your speed. The 20Wh/km (32Wh/mile) is a formal number I get when I go <30kph (speed beep at 30) on my ACM. I upped that to 35kph (22mph) and suddenly it's easily 25Wh/km (40Wh/mile). Just a few kph more will eat you battery like crazy. Wind resistance is a b**ch.

If I recall correctly, @Hunka Hunka Burning Love got like 20km (13 miles!) on his 1000Wh Tesla by going top speed all the time. Usually 1000Wh shouild be good for 50km/30 miles! But that's at <30kph.

So any precise number is pretty much worthless, as Marty says. Way too much variation from different speeds. So test it yourself, or just give yourself a big margin in battery size if you wonder if you can do a certain distance.

9 hours ago, ZenRyder said:

Now, since the MSX has a larger wheel (19" vs 16" on the Nikola),  my understanding is that it will get more mileage with the same battery/voltage configuration.

No

You get pretty much exactly the same range from all wheels if your speed and rider weight (and all other conditions... temperatures alone can make a 20% difference between summer and winter) are the same. No matter the model, tire size, ... That is a big "if", though, you won't ride the same on an mten3 or MSX.

Two exceptions I know of:

• At very high speeds (around 50kph) reportedly 100V wheels are getting notably more efficient compared to their 84V counterparts.
• The 16X and 18XL get better range because they run down the battery more (16X) and even more (18XL) than the other wheels.

All other (possible) differences between wheels seem to be so small that they drown in the noise of different riding conditions.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

1. I’ve never gotten more than 1320Wh into my 1600Wh MSX while charging. And even that was after crawling speeds on level surfaces, and tilt-stop at the slightest incline. If you calculate Wh/mile with 1600Wh, you are already off by 25%. For usable range it’s even more off.

The 25Wh/km (or whatever) is just a number without connection to reality. Just stated capacity divided by range. Your actual power usage is different anyways because you don't run the battery down to 0%. More like 30% (becomes 15% with voltage drop, on Gotways that's where the speed beeps start).

It's just for doing a quick estimate of the range of a given battery size. The main benefit here is not a realistic or guaranteed number, but to debunk the absurd manufacturer range promises right away.

Edited October 29, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[atdlzpae]

8 hours ago, ZenRyder said:

Let's say you changed jobs and your new job is now 35 miles instead of 28 miles (round trip). Your range on the MSX seems limited to 30 miles based on your 52 wh efficiency (weight + riding speed), not enough range to make it. With a simple calculation you can now determine that you will get about 40 wh on the XL18 and your range on that will most likely be about 39 miles. Perfect, that wheel should work for you. Thanks for giving a good example of why this could be helpful for those who don't want to roll the dice with their money and wheel selection.

There are a few flaws in this scenario:
- A wheel has to be overpowered, I don't like riding on strong tiltback/constant beeping.
- In the winter range will be even lower - the wheel has to be overpowered.
- Selling and buying wheels is a PITA. You can updgrade as needed e-scooters and bikes, but not wheels - the market is too shallow.
- You can charge the wheel at work, which makes 30 miles more than enough.
- KS18XL and MSX, while similar, are different. On a road they'd behave almost the same, but in a forest MSX wins. While KS16XL wins in a supermarket.
- You always roll the dice when you upgrade to a used wheel. Hell, even a new wheel can have factory defects.

The thing is, you always roll the dice. I'd love for motherboard manufacturers to go over all BIOS settings, say which wifi chip is installed (it's always "802.11abgn" instead of "total PoS Wifi that loses connection every few minutes") and what IOMMU groups are defined, are there any drivers missing in FreeBSD... But they don't. And never will.

But you can find this info. Just not on manufacturer's websites. And Google is already powerful enough, there is no need to compile this info.

Edited October 29, 2019 by atdlzpae

[Mike Sacristan]

Here is what I go by:
Wh / 20 = expected range in km for medium rider at medium speed in medium circumstances.
A 1554Wh wheel would thus result in 77.7 km or almost 50 miles.
A 1845Wh wheel would result in 92.25 km or almost 58 miles.
A 2400Wh wheel would result in 120 km.
A 3200Wh wheel would result in 160 km.

I have gotten 110km on my MSX on one charge.
I have also gotten 60km on my MSX on one charge.

My riding weight is usually around 68kg or 150 lbs putting me below medium giving me a small advantage vs medium riders.
My riding speeds are most often higher than 30 kmh or 18 mph putting me above medium and this causes the largest penalty.
My PSI is usually lowish/medium putting me a bit below medium causing a small penalty.
My riding is not 100% square putting me a bit below medium giving me a small advantage.
My acceleration is seldomly aggressive putting me at medium.
My riding conditions are normally medium except for during the cold half of the year giving me a small to medium disadvantage.

If I did weigh 60kg and rode at 20 kmh on a flat surface I am pretty sure I would get the manufacturer stated 160km except I would probably die of boredom before that.
And things will not even out if you do 30 kmh and then 10 kmh and average that to 20 kmh.

Wh is generally just Wh and like others have said there are slight deviations from wheel to wheel with maybe 10%-15% at most (18XL > 16X > MSX > Nikola) but as others have said the 18XL and then the 16X have more usable battery.
We would gain much more by slowing down a tiny bit, pumping up the tyre a bit more, having a more aerodynamic body position and lastly losing some weight.

We shouldn't be factoring 30% usage deviations from wheel to wheel. Then something is terribly wrong.

Long story short... expect 1845/1554 times more range.
Until you double your battery consumption riding at 60 kmh instead of 40 kmh.

[Justin Boivin]

I'm wondering if the greater power means a heavier wheel in this case, or just better engineering?

[Rywokast]

22 minutes ago, Justin Boivin said:

I'm wondering if the greater power means a heavier wheel in this case, or just better engineering?

the weight comes mainly from the motor and batteries.. thats why any eucs with the same size motor and similar batteries weigh pretty much the same.. in general KS wheels weigh more because they have higher quality, thicker and more shell material with a more complex inside, whereas for the most part GW wheels are quite hollow.. greater power comes from better electronics and how they are tuned (comparing two 2k W motors, KS18L vs MSX) for example, the MSX has beefier electronics and less restraints meaning they are much faster than their counterparts from any other brand.. it will have absolutely nothing to do with weight (relatively speaking of course.. not comparing a 450W ninebot one motor to a 2000W tesla motor) which is how the 18XL can weigh more than the MSX even though the MSX is larger and has a bigger tire.. the 100V wheels weigh basically the exact same comparitively, with this wheel weighing a few more lbs than the usual 1600 wh 84V MSX due only to the additional 260 wh of batteries.. the 100V wheels are simply using different electronics, the motor in itself is not more powerful per se, it is just being utilized better, you could think of it like overclocking PC components to get a better performance.. they are not better components, they are just being utilized differently

Edited October 31, 2019 by Rywokast