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Hunka Hunka Burning Love

What the Heck is Going on In Hong Kong?

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Posted (edited)

@John Eucist okay give us the scoop.  :popcorn:  Is it an apocalypse with crazy rioting and fighting in the streets there?  I saw a video of a gang of masked "protesters" swarming a policeman and one getting shot in the chest after hitting the policeman's arm with a baton.  Molotov cocktails being thrown.  Do they really think they are getting their message across to the Chinese government?  Aren't the HK police just trying to keep the peace?  Should the protesters have settled down a bit after getting China to back away from it's extradition to the mainland bill?  How can China not start moving in military troops to save face in this volatile atmosphere?  Can you speak freely?  Are you safe?  :blink:

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

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53 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

@John Eucist okay give us the scoop.  :popcorn:  Is it an apocalypse with crazy rioting and fighting in the streets there?  I saw a video of a gang of masked "protesters" swarming a policeman and one getting shot in the chest after hitting the policeman's arm with a baton.  Molotov cocktails being thrown.  Do they really think they are getting their message across to the Chinese government?  Aren't the HK police just trying to keep the peace?  Should the protesters have settled down a bit after getting China to back away from it's extradition to the mainland bill?  How can China not start moving in military troops to save face in this volatile atmosphere?  Can you speak freely?  Are you safe?  :blink:

Wait, are defending the new Hong Kong Police State?  "C'mon protesters. What are you protesting? Just calm down go back home like good little citizens of the state."

:confused1:

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This is the most balanced report I've seen from Western media about what's going on in HK.  

 

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Posted (edited)

I’m all for peaceful protesting.  It’s when the mob mentality gets hold and the violence starts that is disturbing.  It does look like some riot police have been using violence to get their way, but that likely in turn will be fueling further protester violence and so on and so forth.  There can be no good when a group of masked protestors gang up and beat a single policeman.  It’s just going to end badly.

Things seemed to be working well under British rule.  China should have allowed it to continue without interference as trying to absorb a democratic territory and applying communist methodologies just isn’t going to work?

I just don’t think violence will be tolerated by the Chinese communist overlords.  Is it an effective tool for change?  I’m not so sure.  I’m not suggesting the protestors should all go home and give in, but violent acts likely aren’t going to help matters.

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

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8 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

This researcher seems to indicate that non-violent resistance is more effective.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/02/why-nonviolent-resistance-beats-violent-force-in-effecting-social-political-change/

Are guns really an aid in the fight or wouldn’t they just escalate tensions even more?  It just seems really unfortunate to have similar peoples clash over politics.  Both parties were prospering and could work together bettering the other as a whole.  It just doesn’t seem productive to be fighting.  You would think all parties could sit down to negotiate how things should proceed in the best interests of all involved.  After all these years, does it still come down to sticks and stones?  Bullets and blood?  Have we reached a plateau in our intelligence and problem solving skills as human beings?  Aren’t we better than this?

I read it. It's a theory. I'm not convinced.

It's easy for you or I to sit on our comfy chairs and debate the merits of peaceful protests.

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images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR6CbfXTExguZJ_9VAWW8p

China vs. Hongkong size comparison.

  1. Guns or no guns there's no way they could win with violence.

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China doesn't have a property tax, but Chinese cities only get half their revenue from the central government, leaving the deficit to be made up elsewhere. Since Chinese cities cannot borrow money, it follows that the only practical way to make up their deficit is by selling land then charging contractors a one-time building fee. The end result is an awful lot of "empty" buildings, because you might as well invest in an appreciating asset that isn't taxed (but breaks down!).

Lots of young people in that protest. Might they be incredibly angry if they don't have an affordable place to live?

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Might be a silver lining in these protests.

Need a new liver? China has got you covered, with a bumper crop of fresh body parts from young people!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China

 1998, the country reported 3,596 kidney transplants annually. By 2005, that number had risen to approximately 10,000.[15] The number of facilities performing kidney transplants increased from 106 to 368 between 2001 and 2005. Similarly, from 1999 to 2006, the number of liver transplantation centers in China rose from 22 to over 500.[5] The volume of transplants performed in these centers also increased substantially in this period. One hospital reported on its website that it performed 9 liver transplants in 1998, but completed 647 liver transplants in four months in 2005. The Jiaotong University Hospital in Shanghai recorded seven liver transplants in 2001, 53 in 2002, 105 in 2003, 144 in 2004, and 147 in 2005.[15]

Perhaps organs from a teetotaler is more to your liking?

https://www.businessinsider.com/china-harvesting-organs-of-uighur-muslims-china-tribunal-tells-un-2019-9

 

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4 hours ago, John Eucist said:

No because I cross the mainland border all the time and I'm semi-doxed.

Understood.  :blink:  Blink twice if you're okay.

Well that's unfortunate.  It would be nice to have an insider's view of what's going on.  Here's an article with a bit of background information.  It's a bit older, and it could definitely be influenced coming from China.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/opinion/article/3021186/hong-kong-neednt-fear-pla-even-if-it-us-china-battleground

It's a shame that China is antagonizing Hong Kong and ultimately damaging it's economic stability.  With commercial successes like Shenzhen, you would think they would have let Hong Kong be until 2047?  They could have shown the world that a one country, two system arrangement could work in harmony.  Communism and democracy working in peace?  I wonder if they hadn't tried to pass the extradition bill whether things would have been different.

I really wonder how things are going to play out.

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  The Hong Kong people were almost free. Now they are being pulled back into communist China. Geopolitics, trade routes, energy costs and the lack of local raw goods to manufacture into finished products might force China back to a more closed off country in the near future. This is why they have been expanding into Africa. China has one thing - cheep labor. 

  I feel for the Chinese people in general but the Hong King people have a special place in my heart. It is like watching a western society slowly drown and you can’t do anything about it. ( Hong King 7 million -China 1.4 trillion) 

 

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What happened to the 50 years of additional democratic rule agreement?

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/britain-agrees-to-return-hong-kong-to-china

According to the Hong Kong Accord, Britain surrendered Hong Kong back to China in return for 50 more years of it’s democratic economic system.  This I would have thought was a continuance of it’s democratic operations prior to the 1997 handover.

https://www.nytimes.com/1984/12/20/world/hong-kong-accord-is-signed-in-peking.html

Is China not following the agreement by taking away certain democratic rights?  Didn’t the agreement have sections to cover consequences in the event of non-compliance?

I suppose there are no real legal repercussions from breaking this accord as Britain likely doesn’t have too many options?    Economic embargoes?  Sanctions?  War?  The Brits won Hong Kong as a colony after the Opium Wars, changed the region into a democratic system, and in 1997 left Hong Kong to the deal with the aftermath of returning to a communist regime.  The problem of democracy is once you’ve had a sweet taste of it, it’s difficult to give up certain rights.

What is the solution?  If China were to say okay, we’ll give you no-extradition, universal suffrage, release of protestors, and investigation of HK police activities, would things return perfectly to normal?  I’m sure they have some extremely smart people on the team who would be able to work something out for the benefit of all parties.  They surely would want something in exchange - maybe a guarantee of no further violent protests and definitely some clauses that would allow them certain concessions if the new agreement were to be violated?  You don’t get something for nothing.  Well, unless you’re a communist landlord I guess.

Why not form a delegation and see what solutions can be hammered out rather than take the let’s fight this out to the bitter end with violence and might?  They could show the world that they are a mature enough country and show restraint to work together to find solutions rather than force communist rule down democratic throats.

When you look at Shezhen, Shanghai, and Beijing you see very successful, industrious cities all operating under communist rule.  Something is working fine there.  There must be a peaceful way to exist harmoniously somehow.  They’ve only got one bike path.

 

 

 

 

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If they are left alone it is likely that HK will drift even further away from China in the coming years. HK will take the best people of China and become a thorn in the side of China. By the time the treaty ends. HK will have become it’s own country. This is what China is fighting. China does not want it’s people saying “ Look at HK. Why can’t we become like them?” 

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The UK will have it's own riots after 31st of October when the Brexit deadline has passed.

If we leave the EU one half of the country will riot, if we don't leave then the other half will riot. ;)

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The NBA and Blizzard follow a long line of other organizations that censor dissidents, which includes but isn't limited to, Facebook, Google, Apple, and Yahoo.

It's easy to be moral when it doesn't take true sacrifices, but I notice all these companies cave in like a bag of potato chips when it comes to a choice between dollars and virtue.

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Zedd, a high-profile DJ and music producer, has been permanently banned from China for liking a tweet from “South Park’s” official account.

For just liking a tweet!

China has

1. Complete control of the country's industry.

2. Complete control of news, media, and social media outlets.

3. No elected officials.

4. A systematic extermination of people that don't look, act, or think like them.

Gosh, does this sound at all like some other famous fascist party? The name is on the tip of my tongue...

Edited by LanghamP

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Well, on the positive side, at least one doesn’t need to wait long for a kidney when in China!  :whistling:  Plus, they make the most popular electric unicycles!  They make good stuff!

Whether we like it or not, China calls the shots sometimes.  That’s the advantage of being the big fish in the pond.  Doesn’t the US with their military and economic might dictate and influence certain policies in different countries whether they like it or not?  Remember the whole boycott France thing during the Iraq war?

https://news.virginia.edu/content/study-tracks-us-boycott-french-sounding-products-during-2003-iraq-war?amp

Is the travel/trade embargo with Cuba still going on?

Let’s not forget that China is a communist country.  While we over here enjoy and are used to the freedoms that democracy provides while partaking of goods from a communist country, China will do what they will to preserve their interests as much as a democratic country might.  US history hasn’t been squeeky clean so no system is perfect.  Did you see what they did with the atomic waste in Bikini Atoll?  Isn’t that a form of exterminating a people by poisoning their environment?  Is it worse to kill people slowly by cancer or kill them quickly?

Companies are just bystanders in this fight.  Do we really want that $1000 iPhone to cost $2000?  Sure I guess one could shift manufacturing to India or someplace else, but it likely will end up costing more as the infrastructure might not be in place.  Or you can bend the knee and remove one app from the App store.  Does it help the  cause of the protestors in HK?   Heck no, but it might not be corporate America’s fight.

https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2019-10-09/apple-removes-hong-kong-map-app-china-criticism

Individuals can fight by giving up Apple products, but that just hurts an American company.  Will it pressure the company to be more politically supportive of democracy in other countries?  Maybe, maybe not.  Blizzard banning people for 1000 years from posting is kinda crazy, but if that’s what it takes to placate the communist overlords, you gotta do what you gotta do I guess.

Say hypothetically an American EUC distributor tweets something in support of the HK protestors.  China retaliates and demands that they retract it or they will ban EUC shipments to that company.  Should the American company refuse and end up closing up shop, or should they just give into the pressure?  Who is going to win that fight ultimately?

Communism and democracy are like water and oil.  They just don’t mix well, but they can coexist along side of one another.  I don’t know what the ultimate solution in Hong Kong will be, but hopefully calmer minds will prevail and work out a system all parties can accept as a compromise.  It would set a great example if they can work something out in a peaceful manner.

Edited by Hunka Hunka Burning Love

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I don't know @Hunka Hunka Burning Love. Seems like a lot of equating between Communism and Capitalism with what you wrote. I assume you're a relativist?

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Someone is financing the riots.  I've been told by some friends from Macau that they get paid $1000 a day to stand in the back and $10,000 a day to be in the front line.  I don't know what the motives are in creating this issue in HK.  Not sure who it is behind this.  

The violence is dumb and doesn't help with their cause.  I think the folks doing the violence are paid.  Why destroy private citizen's stores.  

Our democracy isn't even working.  We have so many people in office that don't represent the interest of the people that put them there.  WE don't vote for our president directly.  This is all an illusion.  There is so much corruption.  

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47 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Someone is financing the riots.  I've been told by some friends from Macau that they get paid $1000 a day to stand in the back and $10,000 a day to be in the front line.  I don't know what the motives are in creating this issue in HK.  Not sure who it is behind this.  

The violence is dumb and doesn't help with their cause.  I think the folks doing the violence are paid.  Why destroy private citizen's stores.  

Some of them get paid but certainly not the majority of them. I would stay really skeptical for these kind of rumors because even if they are true they would have really low chance be the main cause.

For the violence yes it's dumb when you can think clearly. However, try put yourself in their shoes. With their daily interactions, news, and rumors makes them get afraid, frustrated, and angry. Being young doesn't help these people either. Remember the last dumb thing you did when you get angry?

HK have valid reasons to do these protests but I don't support violence:

 

Quote

Our democracy isn't even working.  We have so many people in office that don't represent the interest of the people that put them there.  WE don't vote for our president directly.  This is all an illusion.  There is so much corruption.  

Don't we have reasons why we don't vote directly?

Edited by Kens

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5 hours ago, Kens said:

Some of them get paid but certainly not the majority of them. I would stay really skeptical for these kind of rumors because even if they are true they would have really low chance be the main cause.

For the violence yes it's dumb when you can think clearly. However, try put yourself in their shoes. With their daily interactions, news, and rumors makes them get afraid, frustrated, and angry. Being young doesn't help these people either. Remember the last dumb thing you did when you get angry?

HK have valid reasons to do these protests but I don't support violence:

 

Don't we have reasons why we don't vote directly?

I’ve seen this happen in many places where you have a peaceful protest and a small group is paid to do violence.  The violence allows for the use of force to shut things down.  

I don’t know the reason behind why we don’t allow direct voting,  it shouldn’t be this way.   We elect everything else directly.  

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