After having ridden Gotway & Kingsong, is there anyone who actually prefers kingsong?

[photorph]

Gotway seems to be so far ahead in performance, and now reliability as well.

nikola + vs ks16x for example, we have all seen the numerous issues with ks16x that kingsong has been trying to resolve with firmware updates.  The Nikola plus is so far ahead of it.  And EUCs like the MSX have been extremely reliable, although not ideal ergonomically.

I know kingsong has a better trolley handle, way more useful than Gotway.  Better ergonomics, sure. But the ride quality on the Gotway and the quietness of the motor is amazing.  Performance wise kingsong starts throttling where as Gotway does not.  

So if you still prefer kingsong, curious to know why?  To be qualified to answer this you must have ridden both.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2019 by photorph

[atdlzpae]

MSX has shit software. Very basic, without any possibility of a future update (they don't have firmware updates).

I need to clarify - Gotway software - 4/10, KingSong software - 5/10. But KingSong can improve, Gotway is stuck. :-)

KingSongs have way better trolley handles.

 

You can charge KS18XL with 10A, while MSX only with 5A. Thus, making long trips with recharging in restaurants is harder on MSX.

My KS16S was a smoother ride on pavement than MSX 84V, whereas MSX kicks ass on bumps.

 

Overall, I usually recommend KingSongs for calm riders like myself (trolley handle) and MSX'es for speed demons.

Edited September 19, 2019 by atdlzpae

[mrelwood]

23 minutes ago, photorph said:

Performance wise kingsong starts throttling where as Gotway does not.  

Not quite. When KS starts to throttle on the 18XL, the MSX won’t let you ride anymore. At all. That’s why 18XL gets so much range, it uses the battery cells down to 3.0V, when GW wheels don’t go below 3.3V.

The 16X stops at 3.15V though, and the throttle curves will likely change again in the near future.

 

I have ridden solely on the MSX for more than a year, and reached past 7000km. Yet I have not been able to recommend the wheel to anybody. The 18XL on the other hand is an easy one to take in use, an instantly very nice ride, and no mods required.

The 18XL pedal modes (and the latest firmware) makes everyday medium accelerations require quite a bit less effort than on the MSX. The riding ergonomics are also lightyears ahead, whereas the MSX is just horrible without severe mods. And of course, the trolley handle on the MSX is an evil prank.

Now that the debate has moved on to the Nikola vs 16X, the game has changed quite a bit though. So if the new size fits, one will have hard time choosing. I have only gotten to try the Nikola very briefly and without any sidepads, but despite the slippery-when-wet pedals forcing me to ride very calmly, it was a very nice ride. The 16x3.0” trumped my doubts, and I now consider it to be the standard, the most universal EUC tire size.

[Old Glider]

12 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Not quite. When KS starts to throttle on the 18XL, the MSX won’t let you ride anymore. At all. That’s why 18XL gets so much range, it uses the battery cells down to 3.0V, when GW wheels don’t go below 3.3V.

The 16X stops at 3.15V though, and the throttle curves will likely change again in the near future.

 

I have ridden solely on the MSX for more than a year, and reached past 7000km. Yet I have not been able to recommend the wheel to anybody. The 18XL on the other hand is an easy one to take in use, an instantly very nice ride, and no mods required.

The 18XL pedal modes (and the latest firmware) makes everyday medium accelerations require quite a bit less effort than on the MSX. The riding ergonomics are also lightyears ahead, whereas the MSX is just horrible without severe mods. And of course, the trolley handle on the MSX is an evil prank.

Now that the debate has moved on to the Nikola vs 16X, the game has changed quite a bit though. So if the new size fits, one will have hard time choosing. I have only gotten to try the Nikola very briefly and without any sidepads, but despite the slippery-when-wet pedals forcing me to ride very calmly, it was a very nice ride. The 16x3.0” trumped my doubts, and I now consider it to be the standard, the most universal EUC tire size.

Thank you for this insight @mrelwood,  I hope Kingsong can get the16x issues reasonably sorted. The whiny noise of the 18xl is kinda a deal breaker for me I think.

[FlyboyEUC]

Firmware aside, (which I have had no issues with MSX and many issues with 18XL) I feel more secure on the MSX 100v it is almost worth the lack of comfort and poor ergonomic design. The KS-XL is way more comfortable but I higher speeds the wheel temporarily looses balance when I go over a bump. Not sure if anyone else has experienced this. I'll take the KS to stores and for long rides, but for off-roading (riding downtown ) or speed runs, MSX is my choice. I thought I would never say that I prefer the MSX over the KS 18XL. However I don't know if I can say that I prefer Gotway over Kingsong.

[meepmeepmayer]

20 minutes ago, Flyboy10 said:

MSX 100v

Oh cool I didn't know you got one!

[Mark Lee]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Not quite. When KS starts to throttle on the 18XL, the MSX won’t let you ride anymore. At all. That’s why 18XL gets so much range, it uses the battery cells down to 3.0V, when GW wheels don’t go below 3.3V.

The 16X stops at 3.15V though, and the throttle curves will likely change again in the near future.

 

I have ridden solely on the MSX for more than a year, and reached past 7000km. Yet I have not been able to recommend the wheel to anybody. The 18XL on the other hand is an easy one to take in use, an instantly very nice ride, and no mods required.

The 18XL pedal modes (and the latest firmware) makes everyday medium accelerations require quite a bit less effort than on the MSX. The riding ergonomics are also lightyears ahead, whereas the MSX is just horrible without severe mods. And of course, the trolley handle on the MSX is an evil prank.

Now that the debate has moved on to the Nikola vs 16X, the game has changed quite a bit though. So if the new size fits, one will have hard time choosing. I have only gotten to try the Nikola very briefly and without any sidepads, but despite the slippery-when-wet pedals forcing me to ride very calmly, it was a very nice ride. The 16x3.0” trumped my doubts, and I now consider it to be the standard, the most universal EUC tire size.

Howdy @mrelwood as of late I've been experimenting with the Kuji pad with great success in Rocky mountains trails we have here  in Utah.  The pad locks your feet to the peddal by locking your heel and add another pad in the front part of my foot.  Gives me the sensation of locking ski boots to the bindings. No worries when the shoe gets muddy I can always lock my feet to the pedals.  The key to Mt.  Trails.

[Planemo]

39 minutes ago, Flyboy10 said:

Firmware aside, (which I have had no issues with MSX and many issues with 18XL) I feel more secure on the MSX 100v it is almost worth the lack of comfort and poor ergonomic design. The KS-XL is way more comfortable

What is the primary ergonomic issue with the MSX? Is it the footplate angle?

[Mark Lee]

Just now, Planemo said:

What is the primary ergonomic issue with the MSX? Is it the footplate angle?

Personally I think MSX's pedal is too small for up hill runs.  I think it's due to the pedal height and the size of the tire we all love.  By securing your feet to the pad MSX much more torque at lower speeds.  Much more control over rocks.

[Mark Lee]

9 minutes ago, Planemo said:

What is the primary ergonomic issue with the MSX? Is it the footplate angle?

By the way I love pedal angle of the MSX.

Just now, meepmeepmayer said:

@Mark Lee You can "hide" posts, it's under "options" next to the edit button.

Thanks meep...

[Xoltri]

1 hour ago, Mark Lee said:

Howdy @mrelwood as of late I've been experimenting with the Kuji pad with great success in Rocky mountains trails we have here  in Utah.  The pad locks your feet to the peddal by locking your heel and add another pad in the front part of my foot.  Gives me the sensation of locking ski boots to the bindings. No worries when the shoe gets muddy I can always lock my feet to the pedals.  The key to Mt.  Trails.

Kuji pads are great, I have them now too.  I also added studs to the pedals which helped a lot with grip.

 

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

What is the primary ergonomic issue with the MSX? Is it the footplate angle?

Dihedral angle of the pedals, small pedals with a pointless inverse shape, sharp boxy leg contact point, and leg contact point too low (pedals are just raised higher on an old shell design). I may have forgotten some, since my MSX is heavily modified.

[D3m0nzz]

13 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Dihedral angle of the pedals, small pedals with a pointless inverse shape, sharp boxy leg contact point, and leg contact point too low (pedals are just raised higher on an old shell design). I may have forgotten some, since my MSX is heavily modified.

It's also as wide as a house. The main reason I went with the 18XL is that it is the thinnest of the larger wheels and I like to stand in a natural stance when I ride. 

Something else that hasn't been mentioned here is that Gotway doesn't software lock their wheels for shipping which has resulted in some wheels turning on and burning out prior to arrival. Definitely something to keep in mind when making a ~$2,500 purchase. 

[Xoltri]

1 minute ago, D3m0nzz said:

It's also as wide as a house. The main reason I went with the 18XL is that it is the thinnest of the larger wheels and I like to stand in a natural stance when I ride. 

Something else that hasn't been mentioned here is that Gotway doesn't software lock their wheels for shipping which has resulted in some wheels turning on and burning out prior to arrival. Definitely something to keep in mind when making a ~$2,500 purchase. 

Mine came with the main power disconnected, I thought this was standard practice now?

[Esper]

I've heard a lot of reports of Kingsong trolly handles breaking. Either it wont latch closed anymore, or the wire broke and the kill switch doesn't work anymore. I've seen reports of people that can't ride the wheel because it broke while they were holding that switch and now whenever it's turned on it doesn't balance. SO. MANY. ISSUES. But, I've never owned one, and these are just posts on this forum, on facebook, and emails I've seen that have been sent to eWheels in my very brief time working with Jason.

I do know that internal trolly handles, or built in external trolly handles are all the weakest parts of any EUC that features those. External, aftermarket handles are generally stronger, and easier to replace if/when they break.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, D3m0nzz said:

It's also as wide as a house. The main reason I went with the 18XL is that it is the thinnest of the larger wheels and I like to stand in a natural stance when I ride. 

Something else that hasn't been mentioned here is that Gotway doesn't software lock their wheels for shipping which has resulted in some wheels turning on and burning out prior to arrival. Definitely something to keep in mind when making a ~$2,500 purchase. 

Interesting fact, the KS18XL is essentially the same width as the MSX if you don't have the MSX side pads on. The plastic shells are the same. But the KS18XL has very thin side pads and the MSX has thick pads.

[D3m0nzz]

Just now, Marty Backe said:

Interesting fact, the KS18XL is essentially the same width as the MSX if you don't have the MSX side pads on. The plastic shells are the same. But the KS18XL has very thin side pads and the MSX has thick pads.

Interesting note! Is the MSX a comfortable long-range ride without the side pads? I definitely have noticed that the MSX FEELS wider when trying one myself, it could be more due to the way the pedals influence your stance than actual wheel width though. I seem to remember an EWheels diagram that shows the MSX is wider. 

[chrisjunlee]

I prefer the 16X for ergonomics, but it is a toy compared to the Nikola 100V.

For my needs, 16X is a special occasion shelf queen, while the Nikola gets in hours of use each day. 

[Marty Backe]

10 minutes ago, D3m0nzz said:

Interesting note! Is the MSX a comfortable long-range ride without the side pads? I definitely have noticed that the MSX FEELS wider when trying one myself, it could be more due to the way the pedals influence your stance than actual wheel width though. I seem to remember an EWheels diagram that shows the MSX is wider. 

I just measured them and for all practical purposes they are the same width. I know people who will slice the Gotway pads in half to make them thinner and more KingSong like. Then the two wheels would be the same. Also, the large dihedral pedal angle of the MSX forces the legs into the shell, unlike the KS18XL. This can no doubt make the shell feel bigger. Finally, the top of the KS18XL shell tapers in slightly whereas the MSX does not. So at the top of the shell the MSX will touch your legs more.

So yeah, there's no doubt that the KS18XL feels thinner. I just wanted to point out that both shells were actually the same width, in broad strokes.

[D3m0nzz]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I just measured them and for all practical purposes they are the same width. I know people who will slice the Gotway pads in half to make them thinner and more KingSong like. Then the two wheels would be the same. Also, the large dihedral pedal angle of the MSX forces the legs into the shell, unlike the KS18XL. This can no doubt make the shell feel bigger. Finally, the top of the KS18XL shell tapers in slightly whereas the MSX does not. So at the top of the shell the MSX will touch your legs more.

So yeah, there's no doubt that the KS18XL feels thinner. I just wanted to point out that both shells were actually the same width, in broad strokes.

Thanks for the analysis Marty, you are an awesome resource to this community!

I have pretty wide calves and experienced a lot of rubbing with the pads on the 18XL, so I have been hesitant about purchasing a "wider" Gotway wheel, though I love the way my MCM5 performs.

I will have to borrow an MSX for an extended test before I consider my next purchase. 

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, D3m0nzz said:

Thanks for the analysis Marty, you are an awesome resource to this community!

I have pretty wide calves and experienced a lot of rubbing with the pads on the 18XL, so I have been hesitant about purchasing a "wider" Gotway wheel, though I love the way my MCM5 performs.

I will have to borrow an MSX for an extended test before I consider my next purchase. 

Wow. Yeah, the KS18XL pads are about as thin as you can get. That's a problem then for you because every other performance wheel is going to feel as wide or wider.

Without the pads, the Nikola is the same width as the KS18XL with it's pads. People have been putting thin (maybe even thinner than the KingSong pads) pads on the Nikola for the same reasons that you would. And the Nikola shell slopes up more than the KS18XL. So with thin pads, the Nikola would probably feel nice for you.

You may know my opinion of the Nikola - it's a great wheel. So if you're looking for a high performance Gotway wheel - the Nikola Plus has your name on it 

[FlyboyEUC]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Oh cool I didn't know you got one!

I got one last week, impulse buy. I must say I'm impressed with the 100v MSX. Not sure how much it differs from the 84v version but I like it.

 

4 hours ago, Planemo said:

What is the primary ergonomic issue with the MSX? Is it the footplate angle?

Foot plates are too aggressive, trolley handle sucks, cut off switch is none existent.  I like how my feet don't move while riding the MSX though. I just wish the pedals weren't as steep.

[erk1024]

Having witnessed the Fan Boy Wars in the digital camera space, my advice would be to evaluate products model by model, and don't worry about brand names. A friend and I were investing in camera lenses and so we rented and tested a bunch of lenses and looked at review measurements / data. What we founds is that each manufacturer had crummy lenses and amazing lenses. The better manufacturers had a higher percentage of good lenses, but it didn't matter. You could never be safe in buying one brand or another and be confident you were making the right choice.

You can see the same thing play out in the EUC space. Kingsong 18XL --> few problems. 16X --> lots of problems. And it's also a moving target because it seems like soon KS will have their 16X issues ironed out. Gotway had lots of problems up front with the Nikola. Now those seem to be fixed. So saying brand X's wheels are "bad" or "good" is painting with too broad of a brush.

For what it's worth, I like my Monster V3 better than my 18XL. But I've taken it apart twice to address build quality issues. I haven't had to fix anything on the 18XL--it's been flawless since day one.

 

[Ben Kim]

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Not quite. When KS starts to throttle on the 18XL, the MSX won’t let you ride anymore. At all. That’s why 18XL gets so much range, it uses the battery cells down to 3.0V, when GW wheels don’t go below 3.3V.

The 16X stops at 3.15V though, and the throttle curves will likely change again in the near future.

 

I have ridden solely on the MSX for more than a year, and reached past 7000km. Yet I have not been able to recommend the wheel to anybody. The 18XL on the other hand is an easy one to take in use, an instantly very nice ride, and no mods required.

The 18XL pedal modes (and the latest firmware) makes everyday medium accelerations require quite a bit less effort than on the MSX. The riding ergonomics are also lightyears ahead, whereas the MSX is just horrible without severe mods. And of course, the trolley handle on the MSX is an evil prank.

Now that the debate has moved on to the Nikola vs 16X, the game has changed quite a bit though. So if the new size fits, one will have hard time choosing. I have only gotten to try the Nikola very briefly and without any sidepads, but despite the slippery-when-wet pedals forcing me to ride very calmly, it was a very nice ride. The 16x3.0” trumped my doubts, and I now consider it to be the standard, the most universal EUC tire size.

I echo these sentiments. Spot on! 

Nikola 100V is THE all-around best wheel you can buy on the market today.  

[MaxLinux]

5 hours ago, erk1024 said:

I haven't had to fix anything on the 18XL--it's been flawless since day one.

For some reason when the 16X arrived it got all the attention, and the outstanding 18XL has been forgotten. I'm glad the 16X is great and that its problems are being solved. But it's hard for me to believe it's better than the 18XL. I describe my 18XL the way @erk1024 describes his: "flawless."