Gotway's new 27100 battery cells

[Gustesta]

Please, if you have a latest Gotway model using those new battery cells, post your experience if you have ridden the older models.  Did you notice any differences? 

[Negreanu George Ovidiu]

 

[Gustesta]

9 minutes ago, Negreanu George Ovidiu said:

 

Thank you!

[meepmeepmayer]

Less voltage drop on typical usage, that's important. Hadn't thought of that when I heard about the high currents possible! Nice.

[Rehab1]

I recently read that Tesla upgraded their their Model 3 cooling system because the 21700 cells have a flammability temperature of just 150 -180 degrees F ( 65.5 - 82 C) where the 18650 cells are rated at 350 degrees F (176C).

Has anyone approached those internal shell temperatures riding the Nikola Plus 100V? 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Rehab1

[Ben Kim]

Are the 21700 cell wheels the same price as the 18650?

[Rywokast]

9 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

I recently read that Tesla upgraded their their Model 3 cooling system because the 21700 cells have a flammability temperature of just 150 -180 degrees F ( 65.5 - 82 C) where the 18650 cells are rated at 350 degrees F (176C).

Has anyone approached those internal shell temperatures riding the Nikola Plus 100V? 

yikes.... the nikola "overheats" at a lower temp than other gotway EUCs afaik but who knows how accurate that reading is and where its actually coming from... i would absolutely not trust any readings in the app because if the ambient temp inside the shell is 70 imagine what the actual important components are that are giving off enough heat to make the inside of the shell that hot.. i forsee a lot more spontaneously combusting eucs in the future if thats the case.. its hard to imagine why they would produce a battery with such ridiculously low flammability temps... i cant see 66 degrees being at all difficult to reach if youre pushing a wheel with a totally enclosed shell in the summer heat

[Planemo]

'Cryogenically Cooled' sounds like a pretty neat USP for the next uber fancy wheel from GotBot KingMotion

 

[Rehab1]

12 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

yikes.... the nikola "overheats" at a lower temp than other gotway EUCs afaik but who knows how accurate that reading is and where its actually coming from... i would absolutely not trust any readings in the app because if the ambient temp inside the shell is 70 imagine what the actual important components are that are giving off enough heat to make the inside of the shell that hot.. i forsee a lot more spontaneously combusting eucs in the future if thats the case.. its hard to imagine why they would produce a battery with such ridiculously low flammability temps... i cant see 66 degrees being at all difficult to reach if youre pushing a wheel with a totally enclosed shell in the summer heat

Maybe Gotway should speak with Elon Musk. 

[meepmeepmayer]

20 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

because the 21700 cells have a flammability temperature of just 150 -180 degrees F ( 65.5 - 82 C) where the 18650 cells are rated at 350 degrees F (176C).

If that is true, that totally disqualifies the 21700s for EUC usage. They can get that hot just from the wheel standing in the sun or something, let alone any real usage! I sincerely hope that's false and Gotway isn't developing right towards a firestorm with their 21700 initiative.

[Chriull]

22 hours ago, Rehab1 said:

I recently read that Tesla upgraded their their Model 3 cooling system because the 21700 cells have a flammability temperature of just 150 -180 degrees F ( 65.5 - 82 C) where the 18650 cells are rated at 350 degrees F (176C).

I just took a look at the datasheet of the SDI INR21700-40T. It has the same operation temp limit as the LG-MH1(18650):

Max Ambient temp:

Charge:0-40°C, discharge 0-60°C

Max surface temp (only specified for the 21700, not in the 18650 datasheet)

Charge: 0-50°C, Discharge 0-80°C, redischarge is only allowed <60°C

Safety heating test:

The LG MH1 sustaines 10 minutes at 130°C, the SDI INR21700 30 minutes at 130°C. (Afai understood they already took a newer test - so they had 30 mins)

So the your mentioned flammability figures are not true for this SDI INR21700-40T. Maybe Tesla uses 21700 with different chemistry, the cooling to 60°C is mainly for efficiency/longlivety. And/or maybe new rules for cars? Or just some marketing?

[fryman]

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/01/28/tesla-model-3-battery-pack-cell-teardown-highlights-performance-improvements/

 

The change in form factor of its battery cells isn’t all good news, though, according to Jack, as the new chemistry results in a flammability temperature of just 150–180°F due to the higher energy density of its cells — compared to a flammability point of 350°F with the 18650 cells. The increased risk of flammability of the new cell design is likely why Tesla chose to upgrade the cooling system of the Model 3 pack, mitigating the increased risk at the cellular level.

[Gustesta]

50 minutes ago, Chriull said:

I just took a look at the datasheet of the SDI INR21700-40T. It has the same operation temp limit as the LG-MH1(18650):

Max Ambient temp:

Charge:0-40°C, discharge 0-60°C

Max surface temp (only specified for the 21700, not in the 18650 datasheet)

Charge: 0-50°C, Discharge 0-80°C, redischarge is only allowed <60°C

Safety heating test:

The LG MH1 sustaines 10 minutes at 130°C, the SDI INR21700 30 minutes at 130°C. (Afai understood they already took a newer test - so they had 30 mins)

So the your mentioned flammability figures are not true for this SDI INR21700-40T. Maybe Tesla uses 21700 with different chemistry, the cooling to 60°C is mainly for efficiency/longlivety. And/or maybe new rules for cars? Or just some marketing?

Tesla uses different chemistry and design itself of the batteries. 

[Rehab1]

5 hours ago, Chriull said:

So the your mentioned flammability figures are not true for this SDI INR21700-40T. Maybe Tesla uses 21700 with different chemistry, the cooling to 60°C is mainly for efficiency/longlivety. And/or maybe new rules for cars? Or just some marketing?

There may be a difference in the chemistry of the various versions of the 21700.  I do know that Tesla has teamed up with Panasonic to enhance productivity of the cells to keep up with demand for the Model 3. 

Both Samsung and LG also produce the 21700.  If Elon has already teamed up with Panasonic to build his batteries I’m sure there must be some proprietary compounds and/ or assembly process that he is not sharing that probably alters the chemistry and energy density.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Rehab1

[Lukas83]

I own a model 3 long rage dual motor... and in Germany we already had temperatures over 41 degrees c before a couple of weeks. I was on the Autobahn and as you all know we don't have a speed limit here. I drove from the supercharger in Lohne to Oldenburg and floored it nearly the complete 35km autobahn to 233kmh and I did not have any performance or power drops. it delivers the full power all the way through. even after 15 minutes of full throttle, braking and full throttle again : always full battery power. 

When I stopped at the store in Oldenburg even the coolant of the battery was not running, and we had 40degrees C that day. you can hear the battery cooling pretty loud. I only heard it until now when you are at the supercharger or charging at stations over 22kw. 

so I can't belive that this 21700 cells are so unreliable... temperature wise. 

there is a way to test it : black vinyl rubber+21700 cell + direct sunlight in summer... if you get the boom we are not safe

 

 

[Rehab1]

44 minutes ago, Lukas83 said:

When I stopped at the store in Oldenburg even the coolant of the battery was not running, and we had 40degrees C that day. you can hear the battery cooling pretty loud. I only heard it until now when you are at the supercharger or charging at stations over 22kw. 

Sounds like you gave the M3 a good workout. I was under the impression that coolant was routed through the packs continuously. Now I want one. 

 

[Gustesta]

15 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Sounds like you gave the M3 a good workout. I was under the impression that coolant was routed through the packs continuously. Now I want one. 

 

Got also a M3 LR and never had any battery heating probles with it.  It's the opposite, when I'm travelling and I need to use the supercharging stations it preconditions the cells (warming them up) just before I get to the station, so charging is faster.

Also, Tesla's 21700 cells have a different chemistry and design than the regular 21700.  Small details made by Tesla + Panasonic.

1 hour ago, Lukas83 said:

I own a model 3 long rage dual motor... and in Germany we already had temperatures over 41 degrees c before a couple of weeks. I was on the Autobahn and as you all know we don't have a speed limit here. I drove from the supercharger in Lohne to Oldenburg and floored it nearly the complete 35km autobahn to 233kmh and I did not have any performance or power drops. it delivers the full power all the way through. even after 15 minutes of full throttle, braking and full throttle again : always full battery power. 

When I stopped at the store in Oldenburg even the coolant of the battery was not running, and we had 40degrees C that day. you can hear the battery cooling pretty loud. I only heard it until now when you are at the supercharger or charging at stations over 22kw. 

so I can't belive that this 21700 cells are so unreliable... temperature wise. 

there is a way to test it : black vinyl rubber+21700 cell + direct sunlight in summer... if you get the boom we are not safe

 

 

How many miles do you have on yours so far?  I got 12k miles on mine, same model as yours, and battery degradation is zero!

[Lukas83]

23 hours ago, Gustesta said:

Got also a M3 LR and never had any battery heating probles with it.  It's the opposite, when I'm travelling and I need to use the supercharging stations it preconditions the cells (warming them up) just before I get to the station, so charging is faster.

Also, Tesla's 21700 cells have a different chemistry and design than the regular 21700.  Small details made by Tesla + Panasonic.

How many miles do you have on yours so far?  I got 12k miles on mine, same model as yours, and battery degradation is zero!

I have 12.300km on mine so I guess round about 7000 miles. I had only problems with the AC... if I would live in the US I would have buyed a Tesla a lot earlier bc better autopilot integration and cheaper prices compared to the eur. 

Battery wise it seems that the 21700 is the future.. a good friend of mine forgot his electric cigarette in his car with 21700 batteries... also no problem. but we will see. 

 

[Shad0z]

now important thing to note is the temperature in the batteries is not gonna be that of the readings from the control board. i dont think you would end up with overheating at all, unless you live somewhere with 45c or more and you ride it insanely, and then nothing might happen

[neurokinetik]

I'd really like 21700's for my 100V Nikola.  Especially if it means that the top-mounted battery pack goes away.

[meepmeepmayer]

6 minutes ago, neurokinetik said:

I'd really like 21700's for my 100V Nikola.  Especially if it means that the top-mounted battery pack goes away.

That would be a 1776Wh (aka "1800" Wh) 100V Nikola built just like the 1600Wh 84V now. If the bigger battery pack fits in the designated space. Not sure how this is supposed to work.

[Lilvodka]

Is this a Sanyo battery?

[Rywokast]

5 minutes ago, Topkek said:

Is this a Sanyo battery?

panasonic.. 18650 is sanyo

[xorbe]

The temp rating between 21700 and 18650 should be about the same.  It's the same battery slightly bigger.  The only way the temp rating changes is with a chemistry change for an application specific purpose.  I have a couple flashlights that take 21700, what a monster battery, lol.

Edited September 27, 2019 by xorbe

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

Just in case any of you heard the rumours about Gotway using second hand 21700 cells, it is false, here the whole story: