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Inmotion V10 expected range?

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Hey guys,

I"m about 205-210 pounds (93-95kg) and I have only 80km on my wheel.  Today I did a trail ride (compressed gravel, some hills, nothing too severe) with average speed of 13.8km/h (my wheel is limited to 20km/h while I learn).  After I got back to my car, I checked the app and I had 63% remaining (I Charged it to 100% 2 days ago until green light went on on the charger) after 17km.  I can't imagine really running the battery under 30% or so charge as I  figure it's terrible for the battery.  If I did another 17km (34km total) that would put my battery at 26%

34km is really only about 1/2 the range of what inmotion states it would do.

This seems really low to me -- and this is assuming I run the battery down from 100 -> 26%.

Thoughts?

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Doing a little math:

.37 * 650wh = 240.5wh

240.5/17.0 = 14.14wh/km

 

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The advertised range is always optimistic. It assumes max pressure tire, low weight rider 60kg, no wind, max 20km/h and smooth paved flat road. It also assumes you deplete the battery. Few wheels remain actually rideable past lets say 30-40% because of speed throttling and tilt back. Only if you have a high speed wheel can you still do a decent speed on low battery.

Riding past 50% battery capacity is no fun on the V8 imo. It has an advertised range of 45km but even though I run the tire uncomfortably hard, weigh 65kg, I have a practical range of only 25km = 50-60% of the advertised range.

So if you wanna have a practical range of 50km get a wheel that advertises around 100km.

Edited by alcatraz

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20Wh/km or 35Wh/mile is a reasonable estimate for the more or less average rider at moderate speeds (30kph/19mph). Usually 1000Wh are good for 50km/30miles. That applies to all wheels (with a slight exception for the 18XL and 16X which get a bit more range due to discharging their batteries further than other wheels).

That gives 33km or 19 miles for the V10, which is a good estimate. 

So your result is as expected. Looks like you even got a bit more due to your low speed.

Due to the nonlinear discharge curve and the voltage drop, you cannot realistically extrapolate range from a partial discharge. The lower the battery, the less a % means in real world range. You'd need to do a real range test from 100% till the wheel throws you off if you want to know your range. Which is going to be around 20miles (or much more if you're going slower - it all very much depends on your speed).

8 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

34km is really only about 1/2 the range of what inmotion states it would do.

All manufacturer ranges (and some other specs) are pure BS, Inmotion's included. That only works with a 50kg rider at 15kph speed or so. Go by battery size.

8 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

I can't imagine really running the battery under 30% or so charge as I  figure it's terrible for the battery.

It does not hurt the battery if you discharge it. Even "0%" is still quite full (presumably 3.3V, whereas 100% is 4.2V, and the battery is officially discharged at 3.0V). You just shouldn't keep your battery empty for a long time, if it is under 3V for a long time or discharges towards maybe 2.6V, that would be bad. But just riding your wheel down to 0% is absolutely fine. Simply don't store it at 0% for an extended time (~weeks - a few days won't be a problem).

Edited by meepmeepmayer
spelling

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Thanks for the quick replies all.  I was originally intending this for partial year commuting to use as a bus replacement to get to the train (I get to work at 7:00am 30 miles away & bus route doesn't start locally until 7.  Train starts at like 4am).  Train station is 7-8 miles away so I figure it should function OK for that if I decide to do that.  

I had one cell phone I ran down to 0% and charged to 100% and it didn't last a year before the battery became unusable & phone wouldn't stay on.  I'm terrified of something similar happening to the wheel.  I generally leave it sitting/charged in the 60-75% range when not in use & then charge it to 100% the night before riding 

If there is a better way to guarantee battery life I'm all ears.  I didn't charge it after yesterday's ride as I figure 63 is a nice number in the middle of the battery % range.

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I commute 13 miles round trip per day.  I'm 6'3", weigh around 220 lbs with gear, and average around 15 MPH on the decently hilly ride.  I typically get home with about 80% battery left, so if discharge rate is constant (which it probably isn't) a full charge might get me 60 miles.  I would imagine off road mileage would be much lower due to the added slippage on a dirt/gravel type surface.  

I'm on a V10F though.

Edited by 2 Drinks Behind

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Phones @ 100% = 4.4V and they charge relatively fast considering the cell is rather small.

If your charger is normal (not fast) @ 1.5A and charges to 4.2V that's within spec for long time use.

Sure you can greatly increase the cycle life if you charge to less than 4.2V (which you can by using a custom charger with variable output voltage), or set your current charger on a timer. But you don't really have to worry unless your battery is starting to get old. Aging is rather small the first "year", and then starts to accelerate as time goes by. The cells deviate from another and require more and more of the bms to stay balanced. This is when charging to 90% could result in a significant increase in cycle life.

I've seen some cycle life capacity graphs and for panasonic cells they kind of stay over 70% forever after reaching 70-80%. That's when looking at a cell individually, but in a group they affect eachother and can result in some cells being overly charged/discharged if the pack is charged 100% and/or depleted completely (difficult to do).

Edited by alcatraz

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21 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

I had one cell phone I ran down to 0% and charged to 100% and it didn't last a year before the battery became unusable & phone wouldn't stay on.  I'm terrified of something similar happening to the wheel.  I generally leave it sitting/charged in the 60-75% range when not in use & then charge it to 100% the night before riding 

Don't worry about your battery. There are lots of riders and something like this happened to not a single one of them. As said above, EUC batteries are used much more in the spec envelope than some phone battery. No bad voltages, comparably very low charging (even fast chargers are quite slow for such huge batteries) and discharging stresses, etc.

EUC batteries with common sense care (do not store for a long time at low percentage or 100%, do not freeze or cook, charge to 100% and keep the charger in for a few hours maybe once every 10-20 rides to balance the cells) usually last for 10000s of miles before you even notice a capacity loss (which, except for slightly lower range, is absolutely unproblematic otherwise). Most likely your wheel will be old and banged up and you'll want a new one long before battery degradation even comes into play.

I think around 500 (? not too sure) charge cycles is about where you might start noticing a capacity loss for the typical cell used in EUCs. That's 500 times your full range (20 miles) so 10k miles. If you do 8 miles per work day, that's 1250 work days before you even notice anything, let alone any real range loss. You do the math how long that is in years:)

You'll buy a new wheel for any non-battery reason loooooooooooooong before your battery goes bad.

6 hours ago, /Dev/Null said:

V10F has 50% bigger battery than V10, IIRC.

Yep. The V10 has 80 2200mAh cells, and the V10F has 80 3200mAh cells. So 80*3.7V*2.2Ah = 651.2Wh for the V10 and 947.2Wh for the V10F with a 3.2/2.2 = +45% difference. But the battery count is the same, so anything besides the actual capacity will be the same between the wheels. Battery stresses etc. You'll just ramp up charge cycles a bit faster with the smaller battery and have lower range, that's all.

-

Your "Keep it where it is after a ride and charge to full (or 90% usually and 100% balancing occasionally) in preparation for the next ride" plan is good though.

Edited by meepmeepmayer

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I also have V10 and if riding hard offroad, lot's of hills etc. I might drain the battery from 100% to 20% in 5km's.

Paved roads its about 25km's on one charge.  (100kg rider)

You can ride quite a long and fast with 5% battery also, which I discovered on one group ride. 

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I have V10 and nearly 1700 km on it.

My weight is 83 kg and normally i can ride from 30km to 40 km with full charge. Mainly your riding distance depends on speed. If your speed near 30-38km/h you will get ~30 km distance if your speed near 25km/h you can get 40 km.

If your weight 100 kg you will get less distance.

Don't believe in advertisement.   

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I have a V10f and my work commute is 43k round trip.  I spend most of the time at 35+ kph and the battery is below 20% when I get home.  The rough rule of thumb that the real world range is about half of the manufacturers claim seems to hold.  I thought I was losing capacity for a while but I realized that I was just riding faster once I got more experience.

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7 hours ago, TonyGrayCanada said:

I thought I was losing capacity for a while but I realized that I was just riding faster once I got more experience.

Yep!

And it is easy to enjoy a bouncy cushioning low tire pressure without realizing the pressure is so low. That can also cost a lot of range as I found out. I was worried my batteries were getting old (~140 cycles now) but once the tire presure was up again, I got my full range back... minus the part lost to higher speeds:D

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I did consider buying a V10F as my next wheel (I started on a V5F and loved it) but the range really put me off. It seems to me that the V10F is a good wheel and gets mainly positive comments but the range is out off date compared to later wheels.

Surely it is time Inmotion made a delux version with a bigger battery and possibly an increase in speed to keep up with the competition.

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inmotion should already have a 18'' wheel .... but I you all know it's not the case.
What else should draw InMotion attention do to something about it ?

Hey InMotion it's time to do something about this....
we need an new 18'' wheel with 1600Wh+ with 3'' tire

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I reviewed again today to see if my range experience is still holding as I haven't paid much attention to it the last couple of weeks.  I realize now I'm burning more like 28% on a round trip (13 miles or 20km) now.  The difference is my average speed is now around 19 mph (30 kph) whereas when I looked at one of my old ride logs  from a few weeks ago I was averaging more like 14 mph (22 kph).  I suppose that's the difference that more speed and probably more aggressive acceleration makes. I've also noticed in the app that the W-h/mile for me has gone up from around 23 when I started to around 28 now, so obviously I'm riding in a more power-hungry manner.

I'm a newbie, but I really like the V10F so far and obviously for what I'm doing the range is completely fine.  I like the more slender form factor especially, so it would be a shame if they had to give that up to pack in more batteries.

Edited by 2 Drinks Behind

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Over Labor Day I rode my V10F from a 100% charge to pushback and failure. I got to 29.4 miles. 

The wheel failed (meaning it pushed way back and slowed to a crawl) at 20% battery. There was no drama - I knew what was happening and coasted easily to the roadside. 

I turned it off, waited a couple of minutes, and powered back on to see 24%. I was able to ride back to my car, another mile or so, without incident. 

My riding style is very hard and this was a “speed ride;” flat paved ground and only stopping for traffic lights.  I weigh 165 pounds with gear and stand 6” 2”.

That the wheel didn’t ride further was disappointing, but the weight (48 lbs) and thinner form factor suit me better than the alternatives. 

Still happy with V10F after 9 months and 1700 miles.  Very solid. 

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I have a V10. I am a big guy. I love the performance, but I get 7-9 miles per full charge* riding modestly (15-17MPH). 

 

* has battery sync issue

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lol you think that's low try riding the beeper almost the entire time.. their stated range is complete and utter bullshit, this goes for any manufacturer for any wheel.. they grossly inflate these numbers for obvious reasons.. it goes way down the colder it is out and down way faster the quicker you're riding.. expect half that if it's a few degrees cooler and youre doing top speed

Edited by Rywokast

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11 hours ago, gon2fast said:

I have a V10. I am a big guy. I love the performance, but I get 7-9 miles per full charge* riding modestly (15-17MPH). 

 

* has battery sync issue

wow,, that's extremely horrible..

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