Newbie question: Watts vs Volts

[Yellowman]

Hello,

I don't have the basic electrical skills for what I am asking so I home some ELI5 style answers are given.

1)

So I am looking at the GW Monster 22".

There is a 84V/2400Wh model and it has a range of ~96 miles

And the 100V/1845Wh model with a ~74 miles.

What is the corrolation between the voltage and the Wh with respect to the range?

It seems to me that Voltage gives you more power but not more juice?

2)

What is the advantage of having a higher voltage wheel?

I personally would love to have the longest range possible.

 

Thanks!

[meepmeepmayer]

Only battery size matters for range. There's practically no difference in how much range you get out of a battery on 100V or 84V wheels. So just get the biggest battery you can if you want range.

20Wh per km or 35Wh per mile is a reasonable range estimate for moderate riding at moderate rider weight (30-35kph at 80kg/180lbs). Less range if you ride fast, which on a wheel like the Monster is likely.

As for the higher voltage question, you can follow a looooooong discussion about it starting on page 2 of the 126V Nikola thread (pretty much all the thread is about from then on). The tentative result, in short: for a EUC, higher voltage is better - higher top speed (definitely), possibly a bit more oomph (depends on the wheel - I don't believe much difference has been reported there for the Monster), and few downsides.

Edited August 22, 2019 by meepmeepmayer
clarification

[Marty Backe]

Eli,

For all practical purposes, the 84-volt and 100-volt wheels ride the same. It's only on the margins (extreme acceleration and extreme speed) that you'll notice a difference between the wheels.

So go with the 84-volt Monster. I have that wheel and it's fantastic for riding off into the sunset 

Now regarding the range, what you achieve will depend on how you ride it. If you ride it like the V10F (not too fast, etc) then you can get the maximum range. At my riding weight of ~180-pounds I have achieved a maximum of 95-miles on my 2400wh Monster. However, the Monster is so easy to ride fast (it's literally hard to ride slower than 20-mph ) that you'll find yourself riding it faster than any other wheel. So for my weight, the Monster is realistically a 65+ mile wheel - riding fast and hard.

You're a bit heavier than me, so expect lower numbers.

I'm going to throw an idea at you - consider the 2100wh Nikola.  When I did my range test on the 1845wh Nikola I got a solid 60-miles before I had to ride slow, and ultimately got 64-miles. I think the 2100wh version will be an all-day long distance wheel just like the Monster, but in a package that's more general purpose than the Monster (a huge wheel). Something to think about.

@Dave U may have just received his (did you Dave?) and will be able to give you a first hand report on the range since I believe he's going to test how far he can ride.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Marty Backe

[meepmeepmayer]

There's also a modded 100V 2460Wh Monster available, if you don't want to compromise. Available from Green and Fashion on Aliexpress (if you order one, have them disconnect the batteries, there are cases where they fried en route due to switching on in the packaging - also G+F's reputation is mediocre as far as problem service is concerned. Maybe other sellers have modded Monsters too.).

The range you'll get is 99% simply proportional to the number of cells in the battery (= reliable measure of battery size). For comparison:

• 144 (6*24) cells on the 1845Wh 100V Nikola
• 160 (8*20) cells on the 2100Wh 84V Nikola
• 180 (9*20) cells on the 2400Wh 84V Monster
• 192 (8*24) cells on that modded 2460Wh 100V Monster

Those are the highest range wheels right now (because they have the biggest batteries), and you can extrapolate their ranges using the cell count if you have a range from one of them to compare to (such as Marty's 60 miles without beeps, 65 miles with from his 1845Wh Nikola). Marty's range (before beeps, hard riding possible) comes out to 2.4 cells per mile of range from a full battery, so divide the cell count by 2.4 to get a range estimate.

[Marty Backe]

27 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

There's also a modded 100V 2460Wh Monster available, if you don't want to compromise. Available from Green and Fashion on Aliexpress (if you order one, have them disconnect the batteries, there are cases where they fried en route due to switching on in the packaging - also G+F's reputation is mediocre as far as problem service is concerned. Maybe other sellers have modded Monsters too.).

The range you'll get is 99% simply proportional to the number of cells in the battery (= reliable measure of battery size). For comparison:

• 144 (6*24) cells on the 1845Wh 100V Nikola
• 160 (8*20) cells on the 2100Wh 84V Nikola
• 180 (9*20) cells on the 2400Wh 84V Monster
• 192 (8*24) cells on that modded 2460Wh 100V Monster

Those are the highest range wheels right now (because they have the biggest batteries), and you can extrapolate their ranges using the cell count if you have a range from one of them to compare to (such as Marty's 60 miles without beeps, 65 miles with from his 1845Wh Nikola). Marty's range (before beeps, hard riding possible) comes out to 2.4 cells per mile of range from a full battery, so divide the cell count by 2.4 to get a range estimate.

You're my battery expert Meep  For some reason the battery configuration information never sticks with me (lack of interest?). Anyway, great to be able to lean on your expertise.

The only thing I would add is to always remember rider weight.

Considering how different wheels are ridden differently, I think all of these high-capacity wheels will allow you to ride further than your legs will allow.

[meepmeepmayer]

34 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

For some reason the battery configuration information never sticks with me (lack of interest?).

I guess because Wh computations are confusing and subject to arguing over the details... why bother if the answer is vague anyways?

That's why I'm going with cell count now, which is what battery size boils down to anyways. Same cell on same type of firmware is just extremely comparable and objective.

[KS uses slightly different cells and sometimes different 0% voltages, so the above numbers only work for Gotways.]

Cells also help picture how the wheel is built internally, which is how I recall the stuff in the first place.

34 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Considering how different wheels are ridden differently

Yes, for the same rider, a certain wheel may just make one go faster. Does the Monster make one speed compared to the Nikola? Everyone says the Nikola already makes it easy to go fast without even noticing.

34 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I think all of these high-capacity wheels will allow you to ride further than your legs will allow.

It's not like you have to ride without ever stepping off

Doing the range estimate above, I actually realized there's plenty of room for more battery. I could see myself using a 192 mile wheel in a day, but 192 divided by 2.4... hell no that number is too small!

But I guess what you wanted to say, it's not only about battery size. If a wheel has 90% the range but is better otherwise, it's worth the consideration. I agree with that (grudgingly, while waiting for a 5000Wh wheel).

Edited August 22, 2019 by meepmeepmayer
spelling

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I guess because Wh computations are confusing and subject to arguing over the details... why bother if the answer is vague anyways?

That's why I'm going with cell count now, which is what battery size boils down to anyways. Same cell on same type of firmware is just extremely comparable and objective.

[KS uses slightly different cells and sometimes different 0% voltages, so the above numbers only work for Gotways.]

Cells also help picture how the wheel is built internally, which is how I recall the stuff in the first place.

Yes, for the same rider, a certain wheel may just make one go faster. Does the Monster make one speed compared to the Nikola? Everyone says the Nikola already makes it easy to go fast without even noticing.

It's not like you have to ride without ever stepping off

Doing the range estimate above, I actually realized there's plenty of room for more battery. I could see myself using a 192 mile wheel in a day, but 192 divided by 2.4... hell no that number is too small!

But I guess what you wanted to say, it's not only about battery size. If a wheel has 90% the range but is better otherwise, it's worth the consideration. I agree with that (grudgingly, while waiting for a 5000Wh wheel).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a 5000wh wheel too. But looking at how I use my wheels, ~2000wh covers 98% of my riding.

I'm intrigued by what I'm hearing with the upcoming 126-volt Nikola, where Gotway is going to higher density batteries.

[Ben Kim]

One thing about Gotway wheels over Kingsong, they are usable far deeper into the battery capacity (presumably because they consider 0% 3.3V compared to KS 3.0V per cell) 

I haven’t had an opportunity to drain my Nikola 100V below 25%, but I got 41 miles out of that much, with probably another 10 miles in it before it really slows me down. Aside from the one-off endurance ride, I think 50-55 miles of range is plenty for most people! 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Ben Kim

[mrelwood]

23 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Don't get me wrong, I'd love a 5000wh wheel too.

Me too. But there are a few bridges with a weight limit of 5 tonnes I could no longer ride along...

 

41 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

One thing about Gotway wheels over Kingsong, they are usable far deeper into the battery capacity (presumably because they consider 0% 3.3V compared to KS 3.0V per cell)

How you phrased that makes me think you might have understood it the wrong way around.

When the Gotway cells are at 3.3V (0%), it’s a hard stop, you can’t ride an inch longer. A KingSong at the same 3.3V would say it still has about 25% of battery left, and would let you ride for a good dozen miles, or even two. Albeit a bit slower of course.

 

[Ben Kim]

5 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Me too. But there are a few bridges with a weight limit of 5 tonnes I could no longer ride along...

 

How you phrased that makes me think you might have understood it the wrong way around.

When the Gotway cells are at 3.3V (0%), it’s a hard stop, you can’t ride an inch longer. A KingSong at the same 3.3V would say it still has about 25% of battery left, and would let you ride for a good dozen miles, or even two. Albeit a bit slower of course.

 

You understood it correctly! 3.3V on GW is a hard stop, but that is a product of the control board and not the batteries; whereas KS 3.0V is the hard stop voltage, so the battery percentages for one wheel are not a source of panic where they may be for another (25% on GW isn’t much to worry about, 25% on KS, from a speed perspective). 

[houseofjob]

7 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

You understood it correctly! 3.3V on GW is a hard stop, but that is a product of the control board and not the batteries; whereas KS 3.0V is the hard stop voltage, so the battery percentages for one wheel are not a source of panic where they may be for another (25% on GW isn’t much to worry about, 25% on KS, from a speed perspective). 

@mrelwood @Ben Kim FYI judging by the new 16X 0% being 3.15V, seems this will be the case for all KS going forward

 

[Ben Kim]

4 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

@mrelwood @Ben Kim FYI judging by the new 16X 0% being 3.15V, seems this will be the case for all KS going forward

 

it’s not like there’s much usable energy once the cell voltage drops significantly below nominal 3.6-3.7V anyway.  It’s just interesting how both companies approach it. 

[Dave U]

On 8/22/2019 at 11:18 AM, Marty Backe said:

@Dave U may have just received his (did you Dave?) and will be able to give you a first hand report on the range since I believe he's going to test how far he can ride.

 I got my wheel on Wednesday, looks like you could hop on your Monster and we can go on a journey along the riverbanks down to the beach and up to see what kind of range the 2100Wh will deliver. I think we will need a break mid point, maybe at Hooters? or like I mentioned before , you are more than welcome to take it on the same trails you performed your range test on the 84V/1600Wh and 100V/1845Wh so you can compare apples to apples?

Let me know your thoughts?

[meepmeepmayer]

6 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

it’s not like there’s much usable energy once the cell voltage drops significantly below nominal 3.6-3.7V anyway.  It’s just interesting how both companies approach it. 

That's not true. The discharge curves look fine down to 3V where it gets bad really fast.