Differences in tiltback feeling between Kingsong and Gotway?

[chrisjunlee]

Only time I've felt tiltback was downhill overvoltage from my Gotways (mten3 and MCM5). Otherwise, I don't think I've ever pushed the wheel fast enough to feel tiltback (I hear 5 beeps as "SLOW DOWN OR MAKE DENTAL APPOINTMENT NOW").

I've read the tiltback feelings are different between Gotway and Kingsong.

Considering how I've been riding the Kingsong 16X lately and have the 100V Nikola coming in, I'm worried that perhaps Gotway's tiltback mechanism is completely different, and I would fail to recognize it.

With that said, what are the differences between them?

[Rywokast]

idk to me they all feel the same, i think you have to be a heavier rider or push your wheels really hard to get them to buck you.. at least anything top tier.. i have felt a crazy tiltback on my v5f a few times but that thing only has a 500W motor and is puny so its understandable.. at 120 lbs i dont ever get the feeling of tiltback really on anything including and above my 14S, i would have to assume though and going from reports as well that kingsong can be more severe as thats usually at its maximum allowable limit so it will wrench you back, whereas gw wheels are perfectly fine letting you accelerate right off of them so all tiltbacks are a mere suggestion.. but again, being a lightweight like me (i think you are?) i doubt youd notice much of a difference.. when you first get the wheel set the tiltback to 20 kph or something just to get a feel for it.. nothing bad gonna happen at that speed so its good just to know what youre in for when you push it.. i do that on all my wheels usually and did on the nikola and tbh i could not notice it tilting me back at all ever lmao.. what also comes into play is the size/weight of the wheel and its motor power... you would have to be quite big or extremely aggressive to be able to push something with a 2000W+ motor that weighs over 50 lbs enough to start to overlean, from my experiences i dont believe i could do it if i tried.. the 18 XL is powerful enough to simply keep me level with a supremely light tiltback, nikola i suppose would eventually just keep speeding up until it couldnt go any faster but im not a moron so wouldnt do that but anyways the tiltback max on GW is 48, and the top speed on 100V nikola is like 70, seems rather pointless to have... in short set it super low and try it out, i bet you wont even notice it and have no need to be concerned with it, you will probably not notice it and should be aware of your speed spatially or by monitoring it instead of counting on GW tiltback

Edited August 20, 2019 by Rywokast

[houseofjob]

34 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Only time I've felt tiltback was downhill overvoltage from my Gotways (mten3 and MCM5). Otherwise, I don't think I've ever pushed the wheel fast enough to feel tiltback (I hear 5 beeps as "SLOW DOWN OR MAKE DENTAL APPOINTMENT NOW").

I've read the tiltback feelings are different between Gotway and Kingsong.

Considering how I've been riding the Kingsong 16X lately and have the 100V Nikola coming in, I'm worried that perhaps Gotway's tiltback mechanism is completely different, and I would fail to recognize it.

With that said, what are the differences between them?

LOL, most Gotway users have no clue what tiltback feels like either, as it triggers unreliably, can only be set to I believe 48kph, so we all usually turn that 💩off, go by beeps and feel.

[Rywokast]

4 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

LOL, most Gotway users have no clue what tiltback feels like either, as it triggers unreliably, can only be set to I believe 48kph, so we all usually turn that 💩off, go by beeps and feel.

feels like a light gust of wind lmao... i honestly think that even setting it to 10 kph below the max speed, a lot of people could still push through it and overlean.. i totally agree it is a bit useless in the end and its better to just monitor your speed and if youre coming close to top then definitely listen for any beeps

Edited August 20, 2019 by Rywokast

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

LOL, most Gotway users have no clue what tiltback feels like either, as it triggers unreliably, can only be set to I believe 48kph, so we all usually turn that 💩off, go by beeps and feel.

On my Nikola I feel slight vibrating and shaking at 40mph (which is the 5 beeps). Is this a sign of no more available power? 

Edit: on my kingsong 18s and Z10 I can tell when they have little in reserve power because of the increasing resistance to go faster, so I rarely ever trigger the beeps or tiltback on them. But this sensation on the Nikola is new for me. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Rywokast]

51 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

On my Nikola I feel slight vibrating and shaking at 40mph (which is the 5 beeps). Is this a sign of no more available power? 

Edit: on my kingsong 18s and Z10 I can tell when they have little in reserve power because of the increasing resistance to go faster, so I rarely ever trigger the beeps or tiltback on them. But this sensation on the Nikola is new for me. 

thats a new one.. sounds more like poor calibration or something loose/bad assembly more than something like a power limit, as far as i know most gotways will feel perfectly smooth until you are flying off the front lol, this sounds like something similar to the 16x issues?

[chrisjunlee]

3 hours ago, Rywokast said:

feels like a light gust of wind lmao... i honestly think that even setting it to 10 kph below the max speed, a lot of people could still push through it and overlean.. i totally agree it is a bit useless in the end and its better to just monitor your speed and if youre coming close to top then definitely listen for any beeps

I've totally felt this on the Kingsong 16X! It's very light, and seems to trigger after a hard acceleration. 

On low battery, I swear the 16X eases you to 22mph - anything above that feels like it takes extra effort. It's very subtle, I kind of like it.

[Rywokast]

6 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I've totally felt this on the Kingsong 16X! It's very light, and seems to trigger after a hard acceleration. 

On low battery, I swear the 16X eases you to 22mph - anything above that feels like it takes extra effort. It's very subtle, I kind of like it.

nice, yea thats been the experience for me on KS even though lots of others claim jolting tilt back i think they are just taking it a little too aggressive for their weight heh.. counter intuitively perhaps the smaller/less powerful a wheel is the more it will buck you.. i have heard most of these claims from the 16S i think its at a sweet spot where its low powered enough that an average weight guy can momentarily overpower it, but the motor power is enough to sharply buck you back in protest.. depends on your weight and ride style, but i have never ever felt any more than barely noticeable tilt back on any gotway, sometimes i am completely unsure if its even on or not lol, kingsong i feel veeeery slight but noticeable tiltback.. 14s, 16s, 18 xl all felt the same to me, ninebot one and inmotions they rear you back like a horse or heavier riders can just overlean them

Edited August 20, 2019 by Rywokast

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

On my Nikola I feel slight vibrating and shaking at 40mph (which is the 5 beeps). Is this a sign of no more available power? 

Edit: on my kingsong 18s and Z10 I can tell when they have little in reserve power because of the increasing resistance to go faster, so I rarely ever trigger the beeps or tiltback on them. But this sensation on the Nikola is new for me. 

Is that a gotway thing? On my MCM5, I never felt any sign of it weakening. I just knew that faceplant speed was around 27 mph. I took it up to 25 mph, still smooth power delivery.

The 16X has so much effort. Not sure how much of it is due to it being a bigger wheel, but accelerating on it is a deliberate effort.

[chrisjunlee]

8 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

nice, yea thats been the experience for me on KS even though lots of others claim jolting tilt back i think they are just taking it a little too aggressive for their weight heh.. counter intuitively perhaps the smaller/less powerful a wheel is the more it will buck you.. i have heard most of these claims from the 16S i think its at a sweet spot where its low powered enough that an average weight guy can momentarily overpower it, but the motor power is enough to sharply buck you back in protest.. depends on your weight and ride style, but i have never ever felt any more than barely noticeable tilt back on any gotway, sometimes i am completely unsure if its even on or not lol, kingsong i feel veeeery slight but noticeable tiltback.. 14s, 16s, 18 xl all felt the same to me, ninebot one and inmotions they rear you back like a horse or heavier riders can just overlean them

One thing I've been able to do on the 16X: overlean and cause pedal dip. I momentarily rock forward hard and ease back, and it feels like the wheel is overcompensating and throwing everything at me to recover. It's a pedal dipping bobble, and feels terrifying but kind of fun since the wheel rubber band recover. This is much easier to do at speed and low voltage. (Don't worry @houseofjob, I'm using your diagonal technique to trigger this, with my rear leg gripping the back  )

I've only learned/tried that technique on the 16X, because it naturally came about in an effort to lean enough to get the wheel going uphill! On my MCM5, I've never had to apply even half the force.

I hope Gotway has the same aggressive recovery mechanism. But you're saying it's buttery smooth then sudden cut out, that worries me =/

Edited August 20, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Rywokast]

1 minute ago, chrisjunlee said:

Is that a gotway thing? On my MCM5, I never felt any sign of it weakening. I just knew that faceplant speed was around 27 mph. I took it up to 25 mph, still smooth power delivery.

The 16X has so much effort. Not sure how much of it is due to it being a bigger wheel, but accelerating on it is a deliberate effort.

tesla, two acm's, msuper v3, mten3, nikola... never experienced this on any of them also extremely smooth power delivery up until a point where i dare not go faster lol.. it is all to do with it being a bigger wheel, all 18 inchers you feel this and now these two 16x and nikola being the same physical size and weight as any 18 incher plus having that super fat tire makes them as much of a physical excercise to convince as anything bigger.. its weird coming from a 14 or 16 inch wheel where you basically just adjust the pressure in your feet to deliberately pushing down hard and leaning forwards lol.. i havent ridden a 16x so i cant say from experience but i think the nikola will be the exact same.. it is a tad heavier and larger but at the same time it is extremely peppy for its size, like incredibly so i want to see a chart with the spikes when i hop on it on the side of a mountain and immediately start zooming up it its got pep, i have no idea how the 16x is configured if it allows for that amount of torque because that does use more battery of course, idk if they are a bit more conservative as on the 18l/xl

[Rywokast]

9 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

One thing I've been able to do on the 16X: overlean and cause pedal dip. I momentarily rock forward hard and ease back, and it feels like the wheel is overcompensating and throwing everything at me to recover. It's a pedal dipping bobble, and feels terrifying but kind of fun since the wheel rubber band recover. This is much easier to do at speed and low voltage. (Don't worry @houseofjob, I'm using your diagonal technique to trigger this, with my rear leg gripping the back  )

I've only learned/tried that technique on the 16X, because it naturally came about in an effort to lean enough to get the wheel going uphill! On my MCM5, I've never had to apply even half the force.

I hope Gotway has the same aggressive recovery mechanism. But you're saying it's buttery smooth then sudden cut out, that worries me =/

uhh.. that honestly sounds like an issue more than something intentional lol.. maybe something in firmware or calibration weirdness with first batchers,,,, what riding mode? i mean of the two 18 inchers ive owned and the nikola the pedals are like cement platforms, even in soft mode on any of them there is only veeeery subtle ease on the pedals that wouldnt even be noticeable if i werent intentionally testing out the modes... medium and hard mode are always like standing on a perfectly level cement slab at least for me lol.. in fact of my entire collection the only wheel ive ever felt pedal dip on, which i believe to be intentional or at least, not a fault, is the ninebot one with its years old 450 watt motor lol.... the hardest setting rocks back and forth quite noticeably, and the softest is honestly like standing on a rubber dingey in a tsunami

Edited August 20, 2019 by Rywokast

[Ben Kim]

Gotway tiltback is pretty wimpy, easy to miss actually.  KS tiltback is a lot more sudden and pronounced and even includes a beep. 

i did hear my first 3rd alarm tonight though on the Nikola 100V, 32 MPH with 25-26% battery remaining. That’s pretty impressive actually! 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Ben Kim

[chrisjunlee]

13 minutes ago, Ben Kim said:

Gotway tiltback is pretty wimpy, easy to miss actually.  KS tiltback is a lot more sudden and pronounced and even includes a beep. 

i did hear my first 3rd alarm tonight though on the Nikola 100V, 32 MPH with 25-26% battery remaining. That’s pretty impressive actually! 

What's your weight? And what's the fastest comfortable cruising speed on the 100V Nikola?

[Ben Kim]

19 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

What's your weight? And what's the fastest comfortable cruising speed on the 100V Nikola?

i have less than 100 miles on my Nikola 100V, i weigh 177 naked, 185 with my gear/clothes, I got it up to 36.4 MPH. For now, I feel most comfortable cruising around 28-30 mph, which I also confirmed is more or less GPS accurate (unlike Kingsongs inflated speed reporting)

. It accelerates faster than the typical NYC car, and their light is delayed in comparison to the pedestrian walk sign, so I get a pretty significant head start due to this. Even at 36.4 MPH, didn’t hear any alarms. Only alarm at 32 MPH at ~25% battery a mile from my house. 

[Mike Sacristan]

I felt that the 16X required less physical effort on my part to get it to speed. It just accidentally went up to 50kmh on a rubber sports track.
MSX requires quite a lot of intent, Nikola requires a bit less but still quite a bit. My heels want to lift at higher speeds and I have to force them down.
Wind makes matters much worse. Sometimes I had trouble passing 40kmh on the Nikola and sometimes I could just get it to zoom away over 50kmh.
This depended on road incline, wind and most of all my posture. It is 100% solid though and does it's job exactly as it should.

I don't think you have to worry about the Nikola running away and you accidentally hitting 60kmh. We light riders don't have that problem.

Regarding the tilt back it is a slow creeping tilt on my MSX. If I set my tilt back to 30 kmh I can still ride at +6 kmh but with much much more intent. Too much intent for it to be safe. So yes it can be confused with a gust of wind or a higher speed than what you are actually riding at and since the response to this is even more aggressive posture it can be quite scary and disorienting. At this point you might wobble and quickly back off and the pedals will level out again with a delay.

I ride with the tilt back off. An Android with a Pebble watch could transfer the 5 beep alarm to your wrist. Or perhaps you could set an audio cue for a certain speed and let it play through the Nikola speaker. I use an external speaker mounted on my front shoulder and set it to 45 kmh (Darknessbot). I started at 30, then 35, then 40 and now I have had it at 45kmh for the past 2 weeks. It's not easy to hear the 5 beeps just coming from the wheel. The 5 beeps are a suggestion to back off... but you can just as well push a bit more. Depending on how much armor you are wearing and how you are willing to deal with a fall at those speeds.

 

[chrisjunlee]

7 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I felt that the 16X required less physical effort on my part to get it to speed. It just accidentally went up to 50kmh on a rubber sports track.
MSX requires quite a lot of intent, Nikola requires a bit less but still quite a bit. My heels want to lift at higher speeds and I have to force them down.
Wind makes matters much worse. Sometimes I had trouble passing 40kmh on the Nikola and sometimes I could just get it to zoom away over 50kmh.
This depended on road incline, wind and most of all my posture. It is 100% solid though and does it's job exactly as it should.

I don't think you have to worry about the Nikola running away and you accidentally hitting 60kmh. We light riders don't have that problem.

Regarding the tilt back it is a slow creeping tilt on my MSX. If I set my tilt back to 30 kmh I can still ride at +6 kmh but with much much more intent. Too much intent for it to be safe. So yes it can be confused with a gust of wind or a higher speed than what you are actually riding at and since the response to this is even more aggressive posture it can be quite scary and disorienting. At this point you might wobble and quickly back off and the pedals will level out again with a delay.

I ride with the tilt back off. An Android with a Pebble watch could transfer the 5 beep alarm to your wrist. Or perhaps you could set an audio cue for a certain speed and let it play through the Nikola speaker. I use an external speaker mounted on my front shoulder and set it to 45 kmh (Darknessbot). I started at 30, then 35, then 40 and now I have had it at 45kmh for the past 2 weeks. It's not easy to hear the 5 beeps just coming from the wheel. The 5 beeps are a suggestion to back off... but you can just as well push a bit more. Depending on how much armor you are wearing and how you are willing to deal with a fall at those speeds

 

Wow. It's easier to accelerate on the 16X? I heard otherwise from @houseofjob. I'm curious to see if I have the same impression, and if it's somehow related to our lower weight.

On another note: what are you using for telemetry, and to overlay it on your videos?

That biker catching up to you at 22 kmh, and how he stops pedaling when you rip away at 45 🤣

Edited August 20, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Mike Sacristan]

5 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Wow. It's easier to accelerate on the 16X? I heard otherwise from @houseofjob. I'm curious to see if I have the same impression, and if it's somehow related to our lower weight.

On another note: what are you using for telemetry, and to overlay it on your videos?

That biker catching up to you at 22 kmh, and how he stops pedaling when you rip away at 45 🤣

My friend Tobbe is the guy with the 100v Nikola. He weighs 90kg. He can not get the MSX or the Nikola to above 50 kmh with bent knees. Instead he uses a soft lockout on the legs, open hip and forward lean á la Michael Jackson. The same goes for most of my riding friends. I prefer not to sacrifice my suspension for speed. High speed is when I will need my suspension the most. So I will only ride at the speed that I deserve.

Anyway... every wheel will teach us new techniques so it's all good! If we accidentally succeeded at everything we did there would be no value in succeeding.
Crazy that you are getting a Nikola 100V btw. It's a great wheel and it will feel very different from the 16X. I would get one if I didn't have an MSX.

That biker man... he passed me earlier on at slow speed. I saw him coming and looked back at him as he was passing me. He looked at me and then down at my wheel. Then off he went. #RIP muddafakka!

At exactly 0:23. This is the longer version of the clip.

GoPro 5 and above automatically embed GPS data into the MP4 container when recording. You can use several programs to render the data as an overlay.
GoPro calls them Gauges or Stickers. I use GoPro Quik to render and export. Then I import into iMovie for editing. Sadly this means I have to do an extra pass which lengthens my workflow. But sometimes it's worth it.  Here is a tutorial that I made a while back.

 

 

[chrisjunlee]

21 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Crazy that you are getting a Nikola 100V btw. It's a great wheel and it will feel very different from the 16X. I would get one if I didn't have an MSX.

That biker man... he passed me earlier on at slow speed. I saw him coming and looked back at him as he was passing me. He looked at me and then down at my wheel. Then off he went. #RIP muddafakka!

haha, why am I crazy?

Random vlogging tip: Would recommend you get some sunglasses, especially for self filming. It makes it much easier to look relaxed/happy when you're not squinting at the sun and wind ☀️💨🐄

21 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

GoPro 5 and above automatically embed GPS data into the MP4 container when recording. You can use several programs to render the data as an overlay.
GoPro calls them Gauges or Stickers. I use GoPro Quik to render and export. Then I import into iMovie for editing. Sadly this means I have to do an extra pass which lengthens my workflow. But sometimes it's worth it.  Here is a tutorial that I made a while back.

Wow. That sort of telemetry used to require niche raceway GPS trackers - I remember buying a 'cheap' one for $300 long time ago. Competition from 360 cameras has made Gopro innovate well. Thank you for the tutorial

[Mike Sacristan]

2 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

haha, why am I crazy?

Random vlogging tip: Would recommend you get some sunglasses, especially for self filming. It makes it much easier to look relaxed/happy when you're not squinting at the sun and wind ☀️💨🐄

Haha thanks for the suggestion. I ride 100% raw! Too raw actually. I look really angry haha. Y U SO MAD. Getting a bug in my eye sucks. I am thinking of getting some nice goggles. I do have a pair of Oakley sunglasses but as they are grey tint I have trouble distinguishing between shadows, water and holes. Some nice amber/gold lenses would do nicely.

2 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Wow. That sort of telemetry used to require niche raceway GPS trackers - I remember buying a 'cheap' one for $300 long time ago. Competition from 360 cameras has made Gopro innovate well. Thank you for the tutorial

Yeah I can finally see my G force!  Also it's hilarious that it's always on.. I didn't realise that until a year later. Started looking at my walks that I was taking around Perth and overlayed the telemetry. It drew me a little map, showed me my amazing walking speed of 5-6kmh, etc. 

[Mike Sacristan]

Just now, Mike Sacristan said:

haha, why am I crazy?

Forgot to answer this... because you just got your 16X.
But hey... that's a good thing. More wheels = more fun. Gotta catch em all.
It will be interesting to follow your Nikola journal.

[chrisjunlee]

12 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Forgot to answer this... because you just got your 16X.
But hey... that's a good thing. More wheels = more fun. Gotta catch em all.
It will be interesting to follow your Nikola journal.

haha, it brings me joy knowing someone out there is enjoying them. Are you going do one as well? Or will you vlog about it?

If anything like my other wheels, the wheelog is going to be:

• 2 miles in: "This is a terrible wheel, completely unridable"
• 10 miles in: "It's bit better now after calibration"
• 200 miles in: "ok, I see why people like it, but no way this is worth more than $800"
• 400 miles in: "This is the pinnacle of all wheels, the best of the best, like surfing through ether"

[Darrell Wesh]

3 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

What's your weight? And what's the fastest comfortable cruising speed on the 100V Nikola?

37mph is cruising speed. 38 first alarm. 180lbs

Edited August 20, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Patton250]

10 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

37mph is cruising speed. 38 first alarm. 180lbs

 Holy moly 37mph cruising speed!!!!!.  Just out of curiosity if Gotway ( and it would only be Gotway) comes out with a wheel that goes 55 mph are you going to buy it and go that fast? 

[Darrell Wesh]

56 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

 Holy moly 37mph cruising speed!!!!!.  Just out of curiosity if Gotway ( and it would only be Gotway) comes out with a wheel that goes 55 mph are you going to buy it and go that fast? 

lol I’m not a top speed guy, I’m just trying to keep up with traffic on these suburban roads.