How far is too far to lean?

[Jim Martin]

Aside from know this by actually attempting to accelerate/lean to fast/far to the point that the wheel just cuts out, how do you know the limits?  I'm always worried that I'm going to over lean my wheel and there isn't any warning if you do this, the wheel just cuts out and you face plant.  Does it just take time to figure out the limits?  I feel like I'm not getting the most out of my wheel because I'm afraid to accelerate too fast, but not sure what too fast is   

[UniVehje]

A modern 2000W wheel with relatively full battery will not cut out on you just by accelerating from stop. It is more likely that the wheel just cannot accelerate fast enough and you over lean yourself. If you start from, say, 40 km/h and start accelerating too fast then it might be possible that the wheel gives and the pedals dip forward. After the dip is far enough it will cut the power. 

I might be wrong here but this is how I’ve experienced it. Basically there are two types of “overleans” or “cut outs”. Here is my art work again, above the wheel cannot accelerate fast enough because you lean too far and aggressively. Below the wheel lacks power and cannot balance anymore. 

I think you should gear up and go test your limits.

[erk1024]

I've been wondering myself. And for that matter, how do poeple know if a wheel has good accleration or not?

My current thinking (which could be totally wrong) is that when you lean, the wheel tries to "undo" that lean. In other words it tries to get under your CG again. (Actually what happens is that it responds to pressure on the pedals). You can keep the acceleration going by re-asserting the lean. So maybe you know you're getting close to leaning too far if the wheel is slow to undo your initial lean? And so that's a way the wheel gives you feedback?

[Marty Backe]

Very early on I had a few over-leans (slo-speed faceplants), on a powerful wheel. That, plus the knowledge gained by monitoring my motor currents, has taught me to be conservative.

So I don't do this unless I'm taking a picture 

I basically never lean hard into an acceleration. I accelerate more with a bending motion at the knees. So I can get going fast, but the acceleration is more on the gradual side.

Probably can't tell anyone this. You just have to learn through the school of hard knocks (faceplants)

[UniVehje]

1 minute ago, erk1024 said:

And for that matter, how do poeple know if a wheel has good accleration or not?

I think people misunderstand this a lot. To determine acceleration limit one has to over lean to find it. What they usually mean is how zippy the wheel feel. Basically on a larger diameter tire one has to lean a bit farther to achieve the same feeling as on a smaller wheel. That will feel like a slower acceleration because of being used to one type of behavior with certain lean angle. The wheel will always catch you, until it cannot. 

If your heels rise when leaning that could be an early indicator that you are close to the limit. But it is also possible to learn better acceleration techniques. 

[Rehab1]

40 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Very early on I had a few over-leans (slo-speed faceplants), on a powerful wheel. That, plus the knowledge gained by monitoring my motor currents, has taught me to be conservative.

So I don't do this unless I'm taking a picture 

I basically never lean hard into an acceleration. I accelerate more with a bending motion at the knees. So I can get going fast, but the acceleration is more on the gradual side.

Probably can't tell anyone this. You just have to learn through the school of hard knocks (faceplants)

Your slacking Marty as I’ve seen you perform 45 degree leans. 

 

[Jim Martin]

42 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

A modern 2000W wheel with relatively full battery will not cut out on you just by accelerating from stop. It is more likely that the wheel just cannot accelerate fast enough and you over lean yourself. If you start from, say, 40 km/h and start accelerating too fast then it might be possible that the wheel gives and the pedals dip forward. After the dip is far enough it will cut the power. 

I might be wrong here but this is how I’ve experienced it. Basically there are two types of “overleans” or “cut outs”. Here is my art work again, above the wheel cannot accelerate fast enough because you lean too far and aggressively. Below the wheel lacks power and cannot balance anymore. 

I think you should gear up and go test your limits.

 

Thanks for the explanation, pretty much what I was thinking, gotta gear up and test on your own, lol. 

 

40 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Very early on I had a few over-leans (slo-speed faceplants), on a powerful wheel. That, plus the knowledge gained by monitoring my motor currents, has taught me to be conservative.

So I don't do this unless I'm taking a picture 

 

I basically never lean hard into an acceleration. I accelerate more with a bending motion at the knees. So I can get going fast, but the acceleration is more on the gradual side.

Probably can't tell anyone this. You just have to learn through the school of hard knocks (faceplants)

Yeah, school of hard knocks usually has the answers.  Was riding last night with a friend, he's been riding for about a year and rides daily.  We're both pretty big guys, 210+ lbs.  He was on his KS16s and I was on my Nikola + and while we were riding I was telling him how overlean is really the only thing that scares me about these wheels.  As we were riding and talking he said "you know, a lot of times I'll do this...." and right at that moment he face planted and we were going about 15 to 20 mph.  He got it pretty bad, and he said that is crazy, I do that all the time and this time the wheel dumped me.

 

35 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I think people misunderstand this a lot. To determine acceleration limit one has to over lean to find it. What they usually mean is how zippy the wheel feel. Basically on a larger diameter tire one has to lean a bit farther to achieve the same feeling as on a smaller wheel. That will feel like a slower acceleration because of being used to one type of behavior with certain lean angle. The wheel will always catch you, until it cannot. 

If your heels rise when leaning that could be an early indicator that you are close to the limit. But it is also possible to learn better acceleration techniques. 

Good point, I agree, the only way to find the acceleration limit is to face plant.  The onewheel has nosedives and the EUC has faceplants, but at least the onewheel warns you, kind of, although it doesn't really warn you from accelerating too quickly I guess.

[houseofjob]

34 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

Aside from know this by actually attempting to accelerate/lean to fast/far to the point that the wheel just cuts out, how do you know the limits?  I'm always worried that I'm going to over lean my wheel and there isn't any warning if you do this, the wheel just cuts out and you face plant.  Does it just take time to figure out the limits?  I feel like I'm not getting the most out of my wheel because I'm afraid to accelerate too fast, but not sure what too fast is   

Good question.

IMHO never lean your body too forward from wheel center, due to the faceplant factor (plus, superman-leaning does not have very good control in my experience; you're liable to overdo it with any slight delta, like a hitting an unexpected bump, etc.)

The more I push acceleration, it's with my toe, i.e tip-toes, as this automatically shifts your weight from the natural flat-feet standing position with body fully over the heel / backs of the pedals, to body fully over the toes / fronts of the pedals.

But this alone is not effective in transmitting enough force because you have nothing to brace against to fully transmit your bodyweight force.

Thus, I will lean the wheel in a turning curve position, which pivots the pedals in a diagonal with back outer turn pedal slightly pointing up, and I will stick that outside leg and bodyweight on that back pedal/edge, as leverage upon which I can push the more front inner turn pedal down more effectively, all while my sigma weight forward vs back are counterbalanced. And as I lean on that inner pedal, I don't move my body forward, but rather point my toes down. All this happens as my body is relatively balanced over wheel body center of gravity.

What helps this technique even more IMHO is Gotway soft mode, as the swing or pedal dip that riders are usually averse to, give you more flexibility to position/angle the pedals for such torque-ing/leveraging.

[Jim Martin]

17 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Good question.

IMHO never lean your body too forward from wheel center, due to the faceplant factor (plus, superman-leaning does not have very good control in my experience; you're liable to overdo it with any slight delta, like a hitting an unexpected bump, etc.)

The more I push acceleration, it's with my toe, i.e tip-toes, as this automatically shifts your weight from the natural flat-feet standing position with body fully over the heel / backs of the pedals, to body fully over the toes / fronts of the pedals.

But this alone is not effective in transmitting enough force because you have nothing to brace against to fully transmit your bodyweight force.

Thus, I will lean the wheel in a turning curve position, which pivots the pedals in a diagonal with back outer turn pedal slightly pointing up, and I will stick that outside leg and bodyweight on that back pedal/edge, as leverage upon which I can push the more front inner turn pedal down more effectively, all while my sigma weight forward vs back are counterbalanced. And as I lean on that inner pedal, I don't move my body forward, but rather point my toes down. All this happens as my body is relatively balanced over wheel body center of gravity.

What helps this technique even more IMHO is Gotway soft mode, as the swing or pedal dip that riders are usually averse to, give you more flexibility to position/angle the pedals for such torque-ing/leveraging.

Interesting, I will have to read this a couple times to get the idea down before trying.  I do have to say that you were the one that convinced me to try Gotway soft mode on my Nikola+ and it really is the best ride setting IMHO.

[houseofjob]

41 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

Interesting, I will have to read this a couple times to get the idea down before trying.  I do have to say that you were the one that convinced me to try Gotway soft mode on my Nikola+ and it really is the best ride setting IMHO.

In my head, I am gradually editing my Gotway soft mode technique YouTube video, but unfortunately my stupid computer video editor cannot understand my brainwaves 

Cool! I'd say just play around with it now. The simplistic hacks are like "always be carving", don't operate fully you + wheel body upright, always on an angle........ but this is very simplistic.

FYI I started delving down this road by playing around with feet first; standing on left-toe, right-heel, then switch; accelerate small by going tip-toes, etc. I've been finding the tip-toe thing applies the bigger the wheel diameter you have... guessing it has something to do with making the most effective torque arm of you, the rider, on pedals vs the wheel body.

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, UniVehje said:

I think people misunderstand this a lot. To determine acceleration limit one has to over lean to find it. What they usually mean is how zippy the wheel feel. Basically on a larger diameter tire one has to lean a bit farther to achieve the same feeling as on a smaller wheel. That will feel like a slower acceleration because of being used to one type of behavior with certain lean angle. The wheel will always catch you, until it cannot. 

If your heels rise when leaning that could be an early indicator that you are close to the limit. But it is also possible to learn better acceleration techniques. 

I just want to emphasize the “you are close to the limit”. As in your limit of balance. If your heel rises during acceleration you are losing your balance but the wheel likely can accelerate harder. 

There are, like he said, and @houseofjob has said, techniques to accelerate faster than just a straight on lean, techniques that don’t predispose you to losing your balance off your wheel as easily.

Edited August 14, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[houseofjob]

34 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I just want to emphasize the “you are close to the limit”. As in your limit of balance. If your heel rises during acceleration you are losing your balance but the wheel likely can accelerate harder. 

There are, like he said, and @houseofjob has said, techniques to accelerate faster than just a straight on lean, techniques that don’t predispose you to losing your balance off your wheel as easily.

[ir_fuel]

3 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Thus, I will lean the wheel in a turning curve position, which pivots the pedals in a diagonal with back outer turn pedal slightly pointing up, and I will stick that outside leg and bodyweight on that back pedal/edge, as leverage upon which I can push the more front inner turn pedal down more effectively, all while my sigma weight forward vs back are counterbalanced. And as I lean on that inner pedal, I don't move my body forward, but rather point my toes down. All this happens as my body is relatively balanced over wheel body center of gravity.

Your sigma what?

Edited August 14, 2019 by ir_fuel

[houseofjob]

17 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Your sigma what?

[mrelwood]

Sometime last summer I realized from a few YT videos that some people are accelerating waaaaay faster than I was at the time. They reached the top speed 35km/h on the 16S in about three seconds. That made me try different techniques for faster acceleration.

Then I got the MSX, but I had no idea how much power there still remains during my accelerations. By accident I noticed that I can push the raised sidepads forward with my knees with much more intent than I was before. The wheel just accelerated, no dipping, no struggling. That woke a bit of a speed demon in me...

9 hours ago, houseofjob said:

But this alone is not effective in transmitting enough force because you have nothing to brace against to fully transmit your bodyweight force.

This houseofjob’s pumping/pedaling technique has been the big conundrum for me for a long time. I’ve tried it in various ways and pumping speeds as well as different (MSX) riding modes, but I haven’t gotten any results. The above quote might be why.

Houseofjob (and several others that swear by this technique) weigh very little, in my book at least. I’m at about 205lbs. Perhaps I’m just heavy enough to be able to transmit enough force as is, without the pumping.

When accelerating fast, I slowly push my knees towards the ground. (They stop at the raised sidepads, but I would do this without them as well.) I keep my feet and ankles as relaxed and ”floating” as possible. This gives me a very good suspension, so bumps doesn’t bother me at all since the force I apply to the pedals increases only very little at the incline of the bump.

By entering the position slowly, I constantly feel how the wheel reacts. If I feel it struggle or the pedals getting softer, I know not to accelerate any faster.

 

 

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

 

 

lol nice drawing is the green supposed to be your protective gear ?

Edited August 15, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[mrelwood]

19 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

lol nice drawing is the green supposed to be your protective gear ?

Yeah, just so no-one gets to flame me for recommending to accelerate hard without one! 

Edited August 15, 2019 by mrelwood

[houseofjob]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Sometime last summer I realized from a few YT videos that some people are accelerating waaaaay faster than I was at the time. They reached the top speed 35km/h on the 16S in about three seconds. That made me try different techniques for faster acceleration.

Then I got the MSX, but I had no idea how much power there still remains during my accelerations. By accident I noticed that I can push the raised sidepads forward with my knees with much more intent than I was before. The wheel just accelerated, no dipping, no struggling. That woke a bit of a speed demon in me...

This houseofjob’s pumping/pedaling technique has been the big conundrum for me for a long time. I’ve tried it in various ways and pumping speeds as well as different (MSX) riding modes, but I haven’t gotten any results. The above quote might be why.

Houseofjob (and several others that swear by this technique) weigh very little, in my book at least. I’m at about 205lbs. Perhaps I’m just heavy enough to be able to transmit enough force as is, without the pumping.

When accelerating fast, I slowly push my knees towards the ground. (They stop at the raised sidepads, but I would do this without them as well.) I keep my feet and ankles as relaxed and ”floating” as possible. This gives me a very good suspension, so bumps doesn’t bother me at all since the force I apply to the pedals increases only very little at the incline of the bump.

By entering the position slowly, I constantly feel how the wheel reacts. If I feel it struggle or the pedals getting softer, I know not to accelerate any faster.

What you're describing is just due to the MSX being tuned super hard, so you can lean over that way (and as I said, recipe for faceplant).

Stand leaning just forward with knees bent IMHO won't be as efficient as using your bodyweight in the bracing way I described above, transmitted through alternating single locked legs (ie. pushing with a bent arm/leg is always a compromise to pushing with a straight & locked arm/leg, this is just basic physics).

The way you are describing, you are actually muscling the lean. For my way, I don't really use any muscle, as I am just using my bodyweight + gravity at an angle: standing straight up with the pedals on an angle, transferring weight to the dipping pedal toe via gravity, no real active force exertion.

Plus IMHO there is more to push (ask anyone who rides seated to get much more torque), but this kind of standing upright leaning forward method is not easy to control, and you end up going max too fast, leaning your bodyweight off a cliff like that.

Edited August 15, 2019 by houseofjob

[Darrell Wesh]

3 hours ago, houseofjob said:

but this kind of standing upright leaning forward method is not easy to control, and you end up going max too fast, leaning your bodyweight off a cliff like that.

This.

My analogy is disc brakes vs hydraulic brakes on a bike. I didn’t understand how hydraulics could stop you better when disc brakes already could lock the bikes wheels and send you flying. And then the bike repairman told me it’s not in the stopping power but in the greater control hydraulics gave you. With hydraulics you could get right to the point of almost locking up the brakes and feel when to stop. Disc brakes you didn’t know. 

In relation, leaning forward straight on is like disc brakes. Sure you can “lock the wheel” or overpower or overlean off it, but you have little control over when that will be. 

With various techniques, alternating locked legs, side leaning, hip hinge mechanics etc you have finer control over when you will lose your balance or when the wheel will beep before cutting out. 

[ir_fuel]

18 hours ago, UniVehje said:

 

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

 

Time to open a forum web shop where people can buy these masterpieces on t shirts, coffee mugs, stickers and canvas!

[mrelwood]

10 hours ago, houseofjob said:

What you're describing is just due to the MSX being tuned super hard, so you can lean over that way (and as I said, recipe for faceplant).

Recipe I have yet to redeem.

Quote

Stand leaning just forward with knees bent IMHO won't be as efficient as using your bodyweight in the bracing way I described above,

I guess I don’t have a need to be very efficient when accelerating. The wheel is the one doing all the real work anyway.

I’ve read yours (and others’) descriptions and analogies of the pumping acceleration dozens of times. Yet for some reason me and my friend have not been able to reproduce any gain from doing what we understand you to be doing.

Quote

this kind of standing upright leaning forward method is not easy to control, and you end up going max too fast, leaning your bodyweight off a cliff like that.

You really think that it is easier to control the maximum peak amount of acceleration by pumping and swaying instead of a slow and steady lean with bent knees?

Take a weight scale for a direct example. If you want to get the reading to show any predetermined value, is pumping or jumping more precise than stepping on slowly?

I’m at loss how we can disagree on such fundamentals of the basic physics. There must be something rudimentary that either of us have failed to explain or understand.

What happens if while accelerating with the pumping technique you hit a bump on the road right when you are at the peak force of the pumping? With my technique my loose ankles and knees automatically just bend more as the wheel accelerates at the incline of the bump, so my accelerating force increases only by a minimal amount.

 

Quote

In relation, leaning forward straight on is like disc brakes.

I consider pumping any brakes giving far less control than slowly braking even with the old style pedal brakes on a bicycle.

(If you are going to reference ABS brake systems as an argument to this, I can be sure that we are never going to get eachother understand our differing points of view.)

Edited August 15, 2019 by mrelwood

[Rywokast]

it's gonna vary on the person, the wheel, the current speed, conditions and incline... no single answer,, you shouldn't really lean to accelerate anyways unless you're on an msx or monster maybe but I just use it feet and knees I never lean into it unless im going uphill.. it's just something you have to figure out yourself really

[houseofjob]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I’ve read yours (and others’) descriptions and analogies of the pumping acceleration dozens of times. Yet for some reason me and my friend have not been able to reproduce any gain from doing what we understand you to be doing.

I've been refining my narrative, but might not be coming across clear all the time. I definitely feel it in my body, but translating this to words is not always the easiest, as is most things in this life (BTW, do you do any other sports, like skiing or running, out of curiosity?)

The pumping left-right to me always feels like shifting gears of a car or bike  (I hate comparing cars to EUCs, as I don't think they relate at all, but I couldn't think of a better analogy) where each pump puts you in higher gears faster, letting you press the gas for easier acceleration quicker in the "higher gear".

Also, I really can't do this effectively in Gotway Hard mode, as the pedals immediately are pushing back hard on "lower gear".

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

You really think that it is easier to control the maximum peak amount of acceleration by pumping and swaying instead of a slow and steady lean with bent knees?

Yes, but perhaps pumping was not the right word for this. It's like pushing off at an angle, more bodyweight as I said, not muscle-ing

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Take a weight scale for a direct example. If you want to get the reading to show any predetermined value, is pumping or jumping more precise than stepping on slowly?

I’m at loss how we can disagree on such fundamentals of the basic physics. There must be something rudimentary that either of us have failed to explain or understand.

I'm glad you bring up the weight scale example, as this came up in my head as well.

To get more/better acceleration, you need to keep the number moving up; a steady number just means you will reach that velocity for that given amount of force, ie. the way the gyroscopic and balance input thing works.

I challenge you to do this with both legs/feet bent on a bathroom weight scale standing perfectly up. The number will just stay the same in my experience: you need to create better angles to get help from gravity (better with leveraging the heels from a tiliting higher back pedal edge) rather than push with no leverage on a perfectly flat weight scale/pedals, to keep the number moving up.

And BTW, I think you're focusing on the pumping part too much, as this works even without pumping (or rather pushing off with bodyweight), just that the alternation of bodyweight push gets you to your speed faster in my experience, per my probably bad "gears" analogy above.

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I consider pumping any brakes giving far less control than slowly braking even with the old style pedal brakes on a bicycle.

You're comparing apples to oranges IMHO.

You can't carve as deep with a bicycle as you can on an EUC, and the whole braking mechanism is not the same for both vehicles (hand lever disc brake vs body technique applying force input translated by a gyroscope).

 

Look, I can understand your disbelief, but a few guys here in NYC, as well as a few like @Darrell Wesh (most who are experienced from other sports in how to leverage their bodies), seemed to have felt what I've felt.

Again, I may not be elaborating the "why?" correctly (the big reason why I keep on answering these same questions over and over again, to get better at describing and refining this "why?" of what I am intuitively doing based on my learned skiing background, a technique that is not of my making, and over a century old). But I appreciate the challenging questions, as again, it's helping me with my narrative.

[mrelwood]

 

7 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

 (BTW, do you do any other sports, like skiing or running, out of curiosity?)

I used to downhill ski as a kid and teen, but continued active mountain biking (focusing on trial style skills on cliffs and other tough obstacles) for until about 30 year old.

7 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

The pumping left-right to me always feels like shifting gears of a car or bike

I don’t think analogies will help here, since no-one can confirm or debunk how it feels to you. It isn’t helpful for others to understand how to do it.

 

7 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Yes, but perhaps pumping was not the right word for this. It's like pushing off at an angle, more bodyweight as I said, not muscle-ing

I don’t have any problem reaching my preferred acceleration with my current body weight. Which indeed might be the key here. Maybe the pumping/swaying technique is only beneficial for light riders who can’t otherwise get a large wheel to accelerate fast enough.

Translated to the scale example, if one needs to reach 200lbs on the display, I can just get on and stand there while lighter guys do need to find alternate methods, such as swaying, pumping or jumping.

Which would possibly make it a dangerous technique for us heavier guys, since we might reach the event horizon of an overlean sooner than expected. Which may not be possible for lighter guys on an MSX for example.

And if the point is to get the scale reading to increase, one must let it come down in between the pumps/sways/etc. That is a lost moment in the acceleration that I don’t have with my technique.

One could come to the conclusion that the technique is indeed only relevant for people who can’t otherwise reach the preferred acceleration. And in my understanding works only if you can otherwise tolerate the soft riding mode on one specific brand of EUCs.

 

7 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Look, I can understand your disbelief, but a few guys here in NYC, as well as a few like @Darrell Wesh (most who are experienced from other sports in how to leverage their bodies), seemed to have felt what I've felt.

How much do they weigh?

 

7 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

I am intuitively doing based on my learned skiing background, a technique that is not of my making, and over a century old).

A technique being over a century old doesn’t alone really give it any credit to be useful for EUCing though.

7 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

But I appreciate the challenging questions, as again, it's helping me with my narrative.

Regarding challenging questions: When is your guide video to this technique going to be ready? 

[Darrell Wesh]

I will be posting a video of the Ultimate Perfect Maximal Acceleration soon.