Unventor Posted August 10, 2019 Share Posted August 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Benphysics said: If you are afraid of speed, I respect you; but dont lecture me for what I like. I am not afraid of speed, but I respect it and what comes with it. I were trying to make a point that what you find fun can have huge impact on the community of EUC riders. But that I guess mean little to you. More countries and cities are banning EUC all over. They just need an excuse to do it. If you take it to a racetrack I am all in for as high speed you like. In public traffic not so much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post houseofjob Posted August 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 10, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, atdlzpae said: For me the biggest problem is a surprisingly long breaking distance. I was surprised a few times with how bad it is. Today's model EUCs brake fine IMHO, it's just technique. Do not straightline brake if you want to shorten your braking distance. Always initiate the brake with front swinging leg sway (like natural rolling resistance/slowdown of a car no longer applying gas; wheel moves ahead of your torso, your butt cocking significantly behind the wheel); then pump alternating left-right on your pedals, force focused through the heels and transmitted through alternating straightened legs (I'll even be heels on the back edges of the pedals most times, with that toe pivoted up in the air); and combine the pumps with S-curves, to elongate stopping distance (the road footprint of EUCs are so small (even for the Monster) that not S-curve braking just makes no sense IMHO). If you can get the hang of this, even "weak"-er braking EUCs, like the Z10, will brake just fine IMHO. 1 hour ago, Benphysics said: Actually, the EUC gets much more stable at higher speeds due to the giroscopic effect of the wheel. If you think that 12 to 18 mph seems precarious enough for you, that may just be because you do not feel comfortable enough to go faster. I've live my life always according to my analytic engineering mind. There is this science called physics; and if you have a good grasp of it, you would be inclined to explore it knowing in advance what you are going to have to deal with. When I ride below 10 mph, I find it more difficult than riding at 30 mph, because the wheel becomes more twitchy. If one day you have the guts to reach higher speeds for any duration of time, you would find out that the wheen stabilizes itself past 25 mph. The thing most newby do wrong, is to try to squeeze the wheel between their legs. This is why the wheel wobbles. At higher speeds, you should not hold the wheel between your legs; you should let it free to stabilize itself. any pressure on the upper side of the wheel, forces the wheel to respond 90 deg later which makes want to turn. So the wheel wil cycle between turning in one direction until it presses on you other leg and the opposite occurs. So if you want to ride fast safely, widen your legs to let the wheel stabilize itself. If you practice this. you will become much more confident in you ability to remain in control. If you are turning to the right, your right should be further out while the wheel rests onto your left leg; and vice versa obviously. These are skills which can be achieved if you understand the physics involved. Fear sometimes prevents us from learning. I'm not saying to go out and try to achieve the skills all at once, but armed with the right tools, one step at a time, you can visit uncharted territories logically. Cheers. Very interesting. I preach wide stance / legs away from the wheel body / no hugging the shell, on these forums, as I do this intuitively (never experienced a wobble I couldn't dampen like this), but struggled to explain why this works (which it does, in my experience). Thanks for that explanation! Also, I think you might have gotten off on the wrong foot in this post, as much of the users on this forum are very conservative on the speed front, and many cannot understand past the riding conditions, customs and culture of their hometown and country, just as I see, in other areas of life, many people make assumptions of their culture being the same as that of a foreign country's, until they actually speak that country's language and actually live the day-to-day, to ultimately realize how the nuances are simply just not the same. Either way, it seems, as some others have stated, you just picked the wrong company's wheels. While King Song makes great wheels, with a certain build quality and safety ethos, they have never in their history really been about pushing the boundaries of things like speed. The 100V Gotway series of wheels are what you are probably looking for (Monster, MSX, Nikola), and I would say that, if you are a wide stance rider like I am, there is a quirk to the MSX 100V, where to get a proper wide stance at my 5'7" frame, I must basically ride on the side edges of the pedals (due to the sharp V angle), where my feet only contact the flats of the pedals when turning. For this reason and others (easier response for instant torque via more varied wheel response modes, higher wheel body component counterbalancing for stability at speed, etc.) I personally see the Nikola+ as an across-the-board upgrade from the MSX in almost every single way, as I've said prior that the Nikola+ is, in my 3 year, 18 wheel, all brands buying history, the best wheel I have ever purchased to date. Happy safe (and dare I say fast) riding! Interested in hearing your other physics/wheel-related thoughts! Edited August 10, 2019 by houseofjob 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsiang Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said: How does this explain death wobbles though? To my understanding, it's a runaway process, which is why you have steering dampeners on sportbikes. But yes, I would love to see the sport of high performance EUC, since that leads to innovations which trickle down to our consumer wheels. inb4 @mrelwoodtears this idea apart just cause I'm the one suggesting it. Stability at high speed depends on good road surfaces, Motorcycle at high way speed still gets death wobbles, I have gotten it on my MP3 even though it had 2 front wheels and is suppose to be wobble proof. All it takes is a wavy surface at just the right frequency and amplitude and any wheel will wobble. I am personally skeptical of wheels reaching that much greater speed beyond 40-50 mph, not that its possible, but given how small the EUC market is, I suspect that all components are adopted from other use and if there is a motor readily available that does not significantly add to the size/cost/ weight of the EUC, We would have seen some attempt at getting it in a wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sacristan Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said: How does this explain death wobbles though? To my understanding, it's a runaway process, which is why you have steering dampeners on sportbikes. But yes, I would love to see the sport of high performance EUC, since that leads to innovations which trickle down to our consumer wheels. Forced seated riding at 100kmh. But really... I wonder how long it would take for them to start using clipless pedals, kneepads and pucks for extreme leaning. It would definitely lead to innovations in riding technique as well. 1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said: inb4 @mrelwoodtears this idea apart just cause I'm the one suggesting it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jerome Posted August 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) 20 hours ago, Unventor said: were trying to make a point that what you find fun can have huge impact on the community of EUC riders. But that I guess mean little to you. More countries and cities are banning EUC all over. They just need an excuse to do it. If you take it to a racetrack I am all in for as high speed you like. In public traffic not so much. You should put the above in a macro and just hit a key to post it in the next thousand or so exchanges. I suspect many high speed enthusiast will have moved on to Dualtrons or similar scooters, paramotoring or ..?? in the next year or so. Those who stay and are in it for the long term, I pose the following question - Why should you be allowed to ride your EUC at high speeds on streets, bike lanes, trails, sidewalks; presenting a danger to others and yourself, without the need for insurance, personal-vehicle identification and some system to determine your riding qualification to ride such a vehicle or any vehicle? This contradiction won't get pass even the small minds of the bureaucrats for long. The bike analogy doesn't hold up. "Few" cyclist can hold 30+ mph for long periods of time whereas anyone and their mom can buy a EUC and ride at 30+ mph speed until the battery dies. CA PEV laws work because "most" people stay below 20 mph on there various pevs, and the enthusiast like Marty stay in the 20's (usually the low end). The EUC is unique compared to any other PEV in two ways. It can go 30+ mph in the streets if needed/required, 20 -25 mph in bike lanes and 12.5 mph or less on sidewalk with a footprint no greater than a pedestrian. The second (except for the ONEWHEEL) is that EUCs are the most susceptible to bad terrain creating a fall/crash and serious injuries. When commuting, local touring, errand running and recreational riding no one wears anything other than a helmet (many don't wear that) when using manual, gas, or electric personal vehicles, BUT EUC riders. If people want to be classified as a bike/E-bike then dress like a cyclist when you ride, in regular street clothes (or spandex if the spirit moves you) with or without a helmet (depending on the law or personal risk assessment). This will take care of the speed problem by Darwinian probabilities, or to paraphrase a Clint Eastwood mantra "A person should know their riding-risk limitations and ride accordingly. I respect riders like House of Job and Tishawn and many others who give themselves no unfair advantage over the people they ride among, cars and trucks not withstanding. No matter house fast House of Job flies down a street wearing his baseball cap, he will never bring as much negative imagery as someone doing it looking like Ironman. Right now looking like Ironman or one of King Arthur's knights might be seen by the public as quirky even be well received. That will all change when people realize why the EUC rider is wearing the armor and what the effect would be if he hit them. The short response is - EUCs and all other PEVs should not be ridden over 25-29 max mph without restrictions and regulations. PEV riders should not ride at speeds greater than those where they feel no need to wear anything more than a helmet if that. Edited August 11, 2019 by Jerome 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vint43 Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 I have my tilt back set to 18 MPH. On the few occasions I get a tilt back during one of my rides (rarely happens), I feel like an EUC rock star and bad ass. ... I guess I don’t have much to offer this thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Hsiang said: Stability at high speed depends on good road surfaces, Motorcycle at high way speed still gets death wobbles, I have gotten it on my MP3 even though it had 2 front wheels and is suppose to be wobble proof. All it takes is a wavy surface at just the right frequency and amplitude and any wheel will wobble. Keith Code in Twist of the Wrist goes into a lot of detail of why death wobbles occur, and figuring out why death wobbles occur goes a long way to not getting into them in the first place. Sadly, I think @Hsiangis correct in that there's a hard upper limit to the speed which EUC can achieve. Sport motorcycles have absolutely massive front forks (50mm+!) along with frames that look like pup tents, and hydraulic steering dampers. In comparison, EUCs just have loose human legs; letting the wheel flop between your legs is basically a random chance, dependant on if the wobble is synchronous or not. To recommend that one hold the wheel loosely is to go against a hundred years of cycle technology, which has advanced extremely rigid forks. The idea of putting flexible ball joints in the front wheels of motorcycles seem ludicrous, yet that's what the "legs wide apart not touching the wheel" advocates suggest. You can scientifically demonstrate that perfectly balanced wheels will increase their wobble half the time; simply roll one down the hill and observe if their wobble increases. No rider on the wheel at all is surely the most extreme case of least rider input. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 9 hours ago, Benphysics said: First, I'm not stupid. I'm new around here as well, but I don't think English is Upventor's native language, so at times his word choice can seem pretty curt. 20 hours ago, Unventor said: Reading your post both makes me sad and angry. first off you are the type of rider that risk EUC riding getting banned for all of us, imho it is the stupidest thing to do. The way I hear it in my head is: "Your post concerns me, since this mentality is what can ban and ruin EUCs for all of us, which IMHO is short sighted." 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, houseofjob said: I've said prior that the Nikola+ is, in my 3 year, 18 wheel, all brands buying history, the best wheel I have ever purchased to date. Wow, it's #1 for you now? I'm in favor of the 378V Nikola Plus XR 6 hours ago, Jerome said: (or spandex if the spirit moves you) Edited August 11, 2019 by chrisjunlee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Darrell Wesh Posted August 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) Come on man, if you’re using an EUC for the joy of speeding then you’re using the wrong PEV. Yes, the Gotways go relatively fast, but trying to siphon joy out of an electric unicycle through going fast is missing the point. Freedom. And going faster is not freedom. There is immense satisfaction to be had to be able to blow through traffic at even a modest 20-30mph, and be able to roll right up to your destination and trolley your wheel in with you while everyone else is stuck looking for parking and while the bicyclists are wasting precious minutes looping their cables and U locks around and through poles and gates. There is immense satisfaction in traveling at 30mph like a car on the road and seeing a friend on the sidewalk and easily making a U turn and being able to ride up on the sidewalk at 5mph as if you too were a pedestrian. There is immense satisfaction in being able to go off road to take that shortcut you wished your car could go through. I honestly feel bad for you if you call your XL “boring” just because it’s not fast enough. You should really take the time to explore the intricacies and benefits of riding an EUC. Edited August 11, 2019 by Darrell Wesh 3 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 2 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said: There is immense satisfaction to be had to be able to blow through traffic at even a modest 20-30mph, and be able to roll right up to your destination and trolley your wheel in with you while everyone else is stuck looking for parking and while the bicyclists are wasting precious minutes looping their cables and U locks around and through poles and gates. There is immense satisfaction in traveling at 30mph like a car on the road and seeing a friend on the sidewalk and easily making a U turn and being able to ride up on the sidewalk at 5mph as if you too were a pedestrian. There is immense satisfaction in being able to go off road to take that shortcut you wished your car could go through. There is an even immensererer satisfaction doing all that at 25,054 mph, whizzing past the ISS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atdlzpae Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 11 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: There is an even immensererer satisfaction doing all that at 25,054 mph, whizzing past the ISS. There is an even immensierererer satisfaction when you show to the world the scars on your hands, knees and elbows! Pure joy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucasD Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 10 hours ago, houseofjob said: Today's model EUCs brake fine IMHO, it's just technique. Do not straightline brake if you want to shorten your braking distance. Always initiate the brake with front swinging leg sway (like natural rolling resistance/slowdown of a car no longer applying gas; wheel moves ahead of your torso, your butt cocking significantly behind the wheel); then pump alternating left-right on your pedals, force focused through the heels and transmitted through alternating straightened legs (I'll even be heels on the back edges of the pedals most times, with that toe pivoted up in the air); and combine the pumps with S-curves, to elongate stopping distance (the road footprint of EUCs are so small (even for the Monster) that not S-curve braking just makes no sense IMHO). If you can get the hang of this, even "weak"-er braking EUCs, like the Z10, will brake just fine IMHO. I wonder about physics here. Letting it go in front make total sense. Yet afterwards pumping (and soft mode) make the physics at best vague. Also I vaguely remember there are some human powered vehicles that get forward speed by carving... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post LanghamP Posted August 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: There is immense satisfaction to be had to be able to blow through traffic at even a modest 20-30mph, and be able to roll right up to your destination and trolley your wheel in with you while everyone else is stuck looking for parking and while the bicyclists are wasting precious minutes looping their cables and U locks around and through poles and gates. It's also socially responsible to use PEV, instead of 2 ton vehicles that outweigh their occupants by a factor of ten. Our cities are choked by automobiles whose average rush hour speed is less than 18 mph. There's too many cars to road, and they don't fit anymore. Even if you're feeling crappy that morning, and the rain is bad, by taking a PEV (or bicycle), you're taking one car off the road, contributing less to traffic, and burning less precious polluting hydrocarbons. Edited August 11, 2019 by LanghamP 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sacristan Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 2 hours ago, LucasD said: I wonder about physics here. Letting it go in front make total sense. Yet afterwards pumping (and soft mode) make the physics at best vague. Also I vaguely remember there are some human powered vehicles that get forward speed by carving... Let me play you the song of my people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post houseofjob Posted August 11, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted August 11, 2019 2 hours ago, LucasD said: Yet afterwards pumping (and soft mode) make the physics at best vague. Also I vaguely remember there are some human powered vehicles that get forward speed by carving... That part is more our natural inclination to rest I believe. When you straightline brake, doing just one long press, it is really difficult to maintain a consistent force on the rears of the pedals, as our natural inclination is to stand up straight at a rest/stability position, which does not position ourselves in the most advantageous position to maintain such braking force on the pedals (you really need to be cocked torso & butt back behind the wheel). Plus, once you are holding such brake force, you no longer have leverage to push harder, as you are just sitting on the pedals with no other leverage. The pumping left-right acts as if you hold and brace the wheel on one pedal, acting as leverage, while with this support you can get much better force pressing the other pedal much harder. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said: Come on man, if you’re using an EUC for the joy of speeding then you’re using the wrong PEV. Yes, the Gotways go relatively fast, but trying to siphon joy out of an electric unicycle through going fast is missing the point. Freedom. And going faster is not freedom. There is immense satisfaction to be had to be able to blow through traffic at even a modest 20-30mph, and be able to roll right up to your destination and trolley your wheel in with you while everyone else is stuck looking for parking and while the bicyclists are wasting precious minutes looping their cables and U locks around and through poles and gates. There is immense satisfaction in traveling at 30mph like a car on the road and seeing a friend on the sidewalk and easily making a U turn and being able to ride up on the sidewalk at 5mph as if you too were a pedestrian. There is immense satisfaction in being able to go off road to take that shortcut you wished your car could go through. I honestly feel bad for you if you call your XL “boring” just because it’s not fast enough. You should really take the time to explore the intricacies and benefits of riding an EUC. Great post, you should copyright it! There is nothing an E-wheel advertiser could say that is more accurate or compelling. Edited August 11, 2019 by Jerome 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 I see one other issue, and the OP should know this considering his vast experience on two wheels. Straight line speed as a kick gets boring very fast. No matter what your top speed will be (ok, I'm not saying you should stick to 10mph, but at 25 we are already getting in quite windy territory ), once you do this on a regular basis it will be perceived as "normal" and you no longer care. What's next? The quest for a 50mph euc, and then 60mph, and then .... ? It's like buying cars or motorcycles based on hp. Give it 1 month and you'll be used to that hp. If that's your kick, get into drag racing. Combine this with the fact that every extra mph increases the risks of serious injury, and not in a linear way, and you know where this is heading. It's also quite ironic that someone who spent his live racing on a track now all of the sudden seeks his joy in straight line speeding. I am spending my life on the track and straight line speeding is the last thing I am looking for. If anything my track toys have had less and less hp If you want "kicks", take your KS18XL and go do some mountainbike trails and let us know when you will be hitting 25mph on those There are thrills to be found, especially downhill. I stopped riding on paved roads unless it's to get somewhere/shopping. Off road is a lot more challenging. Or if you want cheap straight line kicks, ride an mten3 on tiltback :p 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 20 hours ago, houseofjob said: Today's model EUCs brake fine IMHO, it's just technique. That's what you say. I want to see a test: a bicycle ridden at 25mph and a euc. Both slam the brakes. Who will stop first? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrell Wesh Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 7 minutes ago, ir_fuel said: That's what you say. I want to see a test: a bicycle ridden at 25mph and a euc. Both slam the brakes. Who will stop first? The real question is how far will the bicyclist fly over the handlebars 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Just now, Darrell Wesh said: The real question is how far will the bicyclist fly over the handlebars To paraphrase: It's just technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sacristan Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 Just now, Darrell Wesh said: The real question is how far will the bicyclist fly over the handlebars Haha exactly what I was thinking after the beautiful OTB I did last year on my mountain bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 12 minutes ago, ir_fuel said: That's what you say. I want to see a test: a bicycle ridden at 25mph and a euc. Both slam the brakes. Who will stop first? 🤷♂️🤷♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 19 minutes ago, ir_fuel said: That's what you say. I want to see a test: a bicycle ridden at 25mph and a euc. Both slam the brakes. Who will stop first? I didn't do this test at 25 mph but at 15, with a 14, 16, 18, and my two disc brake electric bicycles. I was surprised, shocked even, that all EUC braked about the same. I'm swear they sure don't feel like they do, because the 14 inchers feel substantially shorter...they have instant on power. The bicycles are far easier to brake, and it's very repeatable, but the EUC while they brake within the same distance, are accompanied by a great deal of arm waving (and fear). The expected outcome differs so greatly from the observed outcome, that I'd like to see others replicate the test, but from the 15 mph all vehicles are very close to each other in braking distance. From 25 mph, I'd think the bicycle has an advantage due to control, that is, it's stable under braking while the EUCs are not very stable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ir_fuel Posted August 11, 2019 Share Posted August 11, 2019 15 and 25mph is a huge difference in stopping distance and needed stopping power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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