High Speed EUC Riding

[Benphysics]

Hi, My name is Ben, I'm now 68. I started out with a Ninebot One E+ and soon was always on tiltback. So, I bought a KS18XL thinking that it would suffice for a while. I literally suffered the first 200 km until it could be unlocked to 50 kmh. So, I disabled the first two alarms, but could not disable the third alarm (beeps) which I set at 49 kmh, since the tiltback (ali) cannot be disabled and cannot be set over 50 kmh. Within 15 seconds of turning the wheel back on, getting on it, and accelerating, "beep, Beep, Beep, and tiltback. Man was I disappointed. It seems that I cannot get away from those stupid beeps, teeter-tottering fighting to avoid tiltback. This is not how I want to ride; I want more freedom. If there was a wheel that could do 100 mph, I'd be first in line to test it out. Here's my background: I raced motorcycles on circuit tracks at over 200 mph, and during my career, from 19 to 50 years old, I crashed 14 times at over 100 mph, twice over 160 mph, and hit a wall at 80 mph. So the miserable 30 or 40 mph just feels like child's play to me. Is there anyone out there on the same page; I'm tired of reading "31 mph is too fast anyways for anyone". I want to hear of those who are endlessly seeking higher and higher speeds. I know that there's got to be other speed junkies like me.

[uggle]

are you riding on private property or in empty places? Because otherwise speeds like 49/km is way fast enough in dangering others. Cars/pedestrians take a real good hit from a wheel even at low speed.

If you always ride alone with noone around sure it's a shame there is no faster alternative. Otherwise i would say you are going fast enough 

[chrisjunlee]

3 hours ago, Benphysics said:

This is not how I want to ride; I want more freedom. If there was a wheel that could do 100 mph, I'd be first in line to test it out. Here's my background: I raced motorcycles on circuit tracks at over 200 mph, and during my career, from 19 to 50 years old, I crashed 14 times at over 100 mph, twice over 160 mph, and hit a wall at 80 mph. So the miserable 30 or 40 mph just feels like child's play to me. Is there anyone out there on the same page; I'm tired of reading "31 mph is too fast anyways for anyone". I want to hear of those who are endlessly seeking higher and higher speeds. I know that there's got to be other speed junkies like me.

You're describing straight line speed. Anyone can get on a modern literbike and WOT. Borrrrriiiing

High speed cornering on the other hand, that's where it's at.

Modern EUCs aren't cornering machines like modern sportbikes. We're nowhere near hitting the limits of traction. And that's what I'm most disappointed in.

If you're a speed junkie, why are you even riding the 18XL? Monster up or go home.

Edited August 10, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[Arbolest]

38 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

If you're a speed junkie, why are you even riding the 18XL? Monster up or go home.

[atdlzpae]

4 hours ago, Benphysics said:

and hit a wall at 80 mph

Supposedly hitting a pedestrian at 30mph means 90% chance of death... How are you still alive?

Edited August 10, 2019 by atdlzpae

[Mike Sacristan]

Sadly you chose the wrong wheel when you bought the 18XL. You should get a 100v MSX or Nikola with 1845Wh battery.
You will get 5 beeps at a little over 40mph. The 5 beeps is only a recommendation and you can still push harder.
5 beeps indicate 80% power usage of the wheel. You can't have tilt back on to reach those speeds either.
40 mph * 1.25 = 50mph. So at the higher 40's is where the cutoff will be.

This will give you twice the excitement you are getting now. Because when you are riding the beeps you will never know if you are at exactly 80%, 85%, 93% or 98%.
Get an Android and a pebble watch as well so that you have some kind of clue as to what's going on with the wheel.  Otherwise you are basically riding blind.

Much of the thrill comes from the unknown and pushing to find new limits. I love your way of living. It is better to die standing than to live a life on your knees.
And Gotway lets us do it! 

Don't get a Monster. They are stable at high speed and you will fall asleep.
The MSX has a seat! ZOOOOOOM! 

[Unventor]

6 hours ago, Benphysics said:

I know that there's got to be other speed junkies like me.

(Note: Reading your post both makes me sad and angry. first off you are the type of rider that risk EUC riding getting banned for all of us, imho it is the stupidest thing to do.)

Yep there are, but a EUC is never going to reach those speeds you were used to. Simple solution, buy a motorcycle.

But also think that you motor cycle have 2 breaks and contact points with the ground and at a bigger surface. Plus the wheels gyro effect will help keep your motor cycle stable for you. 

Then there is a difference to be on a racetrack and in public traffic. A huge difference. If you don't know this by your age by now, then you will properly never learn. 

Ohh and btw you might have crashed before and healed up fine (at a younger age) but as one get older this is not so fast anymore and might never heal up in the same degree. 

There are simpler ways to die, it don't have to be on an EUC. 

[Mike Sacristan]

If I lived in Osoyoos I would do the same. Not even 5000 people to avoid. And I would hardly spend my time speeding in town.
I would be off exploring the infinite roads.

I just went for a little cruise. Got the 5 beeps on my MSX at 54kmh. The fastest i've ever ridden. For like 0.1 seconds.

[Ben Kim]

KingSong wheels are simply the wrong choice for top speed runs, plus the speed reporting on that wheel is too high (high rate GPS will confirm it’s about 10% too slow). My 18S would report 29 MPH yet only hit 26-27 on the GPS  

 

My choice for you if you must have more speed now are the MSX or Nikola 100V. Nikola 100V might have a touch lower top speed  

 

The monster should also be capable of 40+ mph but it’s pretty sluggish to respond, the other two should accelerate much better. Here is my top speed run on an 18S, riding tiltback the whole time (which the speed graph will show). I will retry this once I get my Nikola and Monster up to the 80% beep.  

 

[LanghamP]

Doesn't even 12 mph feel a bit fast to you guys? Like I might go 18 mph for brief bursts, but it's 12-15 mph most of the time.

Somewhere between a bicycle (2 wheels) and no wheels (pedestrian) feels about right, although EUC automatically crash when powered off.

I just think EUC of the high performance variety are inappropriate for much more than ~25 mph, because they require great skill and bravery at those speeds. High speed fun they are, but not safely in my opinion. After years of riding them I've settled down to trolling them at 12-15 mph to get somewhere I need to be, OR trick riding them (although I was going to the loo on my hands and knees for a week from a terrible zero mph crash).

However, I do think EUCs can sorta be raced like motorcycles, perhaps at a go-kart track, at the lowest expense of just about any motorized racing.

I've done trackdays on my 600cc motorcycle, and it was always stressful because I couldn't really afford crashing, but you will crash given time on a track. EUC seems far more reasonable.

Edited August 10, 2019 by LanghamP

[atdlzpae]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

Doesn't even 12 mph feel a bit fast to you guys? Like I might go 18 mph for brief bursts, but it's 12-15 mph most of the time.

Depends on the road, visibility and traffic.

For me the biggest problem is a surprisingly long breaking distance. I was surprised a few times with how bad it is.

[Benphysics]

13 hours ago, uggle said:

are you riding on private property or in empty places? Because otherwise speeds like 49/km is way fast enough in dangering others. Cars/pedestrians take a real good hit from a wheel even at low speed.

If you always ride alone with noone around sure it's a shame there is no faster alternative. Otherwise i would say you are going fast enough 

I ride everywhere; I obviously slow to crawl speed around pedestrians; this is without saying. I'm not an idiot I know where it is safer for others; but I often ride on bike trails and roads if I have to to get between places. that's where I like to go much faster to first get out of automobile traffic and to not have to waste time just waiting to get there because my wheel does not allow me to go any faster. I only go top speed when I'm alone or to get out of traffic; which is about 90% of the time.

[Benphysics]

13 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

You're describing straight line speed. Anyone can get on a modern literbike and WOT. Borrrrriiiing

High speed cornering on the other hand, that's where it's at.

Modern EUCs aren't cornering machines like modern sportbikes. We're nowhere near hitting the limits of traction. And that's what I'm most disappointed in.

If you're a speed junkie, why are you even riding the 18XL? Monster up or go home.

Monster is too big for anything else than strait line. I do also like to carve corners; and that's where there is skills to be learned how to get max traction depending on your feet/body sinc comes in. Like I daid, I honestly tought that the 18XL would suffice until I reached its long anticipated unlocking to its top speed. I should have bought the MSX 100v; I may have been less disappointed.

[Benphysics]

12 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

Supposedly hitting a pedestrian at 30mph means 90% chance of death... How are you still alive?

When road-racing on circuits, you are subject to the tracks spectator safety arrangements. An other rider dropped his bike just inches ahead of me, dragging me down with him. I rolled over his fallen bike to be projected up loosing any chance of recovery. I hit the cement wall at about between 30 and 45 deg angle and rolled through the rest. I cannot say that I did not get hurt, but when you have good protective gear, your chances of walking out alive is much increased. Also, when you are in adrenaline mode, especially when you are playing with limits, your heart beat races at over 200 bpm, where everything happens in time according to your alertness mode. So you see things happen in sort of slower motion that a spectator who's not in high alertness mode.

[chrisjunlee]

5 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Doesn't even 12 mph feel a bit fast to you guys? Like I might go 18 mph for brief bursts, but it's 12-15 mph most of the time.

Somewhere between a bicycle (2 wheels) and no wheels (pedestrian) feels about right, although EUC automatically crash when powered off.

Everyone has a different tolerance based on their understanding of the consequences of speed. 

For me, that's 10 mph without gear, 25+ mph with gear.

5 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I just think EUC of the high performance variety are inappropriate for much more than ~25 mph, because they require great skill and bravery at those speeds.

The right wheel and tire can make those speeds feel safe. On the mten3, anything over 15 mph is 90% for me. On the 16x with low PSI, that same feeling is 25+ mph. I am not a particularly skilled or brave rider, it's just the wheel and being geared up.

[Benphysics]

11 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Sadly you chose the wrong wheel when you bought the 18XL. You should get a 100v MSX or Nikola with 1845Wh battery.
You will get 5 beeps at a little over 40mph. The 5 beeps is only a recommendation and you can still push harder.
5 beeps indicate 80% power usage of the wheel. You can't have tilt back on to reach those speeds either.
40 mph * 1.25 = 50mph. So at the higher 40's is where the cutoff will be.

This will give you twice the excitement you are getting now. Because when you are riding the beeps you will never know if you are at exactly 80%, 85%, 93% or 98%.
Get an Android and a pebble watch as well so that you have some kind of clue as to what's going on with the wheel.  Otherwise you are basically riding blind.

Much of the thrill comes from the unknown and pushing to find new limits. I love your way of living. It is better to die standing than to live a life on your knees.
And Gotway lets us do it! 

Don't get a Monster. They are stable at high speed and you will fall asleep.
The MSX has a seat! ZOOOOOOM! 

Thanks, I must sell my 18xl first; then I will get the msx 100v or the Nicola 100v.

[chrisjunlee]

5 minutes ago, Benphysics said:

When road-racing on circuits, you are subject to the tracks spectator safety arrangements. An other rider dropped his bike just inches ahead of me, dragging me down with him. I rolled over his fallen bike to be projected up loosing any chance of recovery. I hit the cement wall at about between 30 and 45 deg angle and rolled through the rest. I cannot say that I did not get hurt, but when you have good protective gear, your chances of walking out alive is much increased. Also, when you are in adrenaline mode, especially when you are playing with limits, your heart beat races at over 200 bpm, where everything happens in time according to your alertness mode. So you see things happen in sort of slower motion that a spectator who's not in high alertness mode.

That sounds like a dangerous track. No runout zone with air padding? Sounds like turn 1 at Pacific Raceways.

[Benphysics]

10 hours ago, Unventor said:

(Note: Reading your post both makes me sad and angry. first off you are the type of rider that risk EUC riding getting banned for all of us, imho it is the stupidest thing to do.)

Yep there are, but a EUC is never going to reach those speeds you were used to. Simple solution, buy a motorcycle.

But also think that you motor cycle have 2 breaks and contact points with the ground and at a bigger surface. Plus the wheels gyro effect will help keep your motor cycle stable for you. 

Then there is a difference to be on a racetrack and in public traffic. A huge difference. If you don't know this by your age by now, then you will properly never learn. 

Ohh and btw you might have crashed before and healed up fine (at a younger age) but as one get older this is not so fast anymore and might never heal up in the same degree. 

There are simpler ways to die, it don't have to be on an EUC. 

First, I'm not stupid. Second, I do respect pedestrians and do not get into conflict on public roads where so many people don't know what they are doing. I mainly do bike trails, and here in the Okanagan valley, the bike trails go on forever where We meet very little other people. If you live in large city, I understand your comment; You don't know me, so I'm not going to take your comment seriously. If you are afraid of a few bruises, than this is your perogative; For me, I want to live my life as close to the edge as intelligently possible. This said, I am one to respect others and their choices. If you are afraid of speed, I respect you; but dont lecture me for what I like.

[Benphysics]

6 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

That sounds like a dangerous track. No runout zone with air padding? Sounds like turn 1 at Pacific Raceways.

I raced on many tracks; all have their own challenges. Actually, I could not give you the number of tracks I raced on; I think that I would be short of at least a dozen. In the early 70's race tracks did not have much protection for racers, only for spectators. In later years, race track owners started to think about racer safety. Nowadays, there are lots of concern for safety; yet we are still looking for the edge between traction, controlability, and disaster. What can I say:L this is a way of life: you feel more alive living on the edge.

[Benphysics]

7 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

KingSong wheels are simply the wrong choice for top speed runs, plus the speed reporting on that wheel is too high (high rate GPS will confirm it’s about 10% too slow). My 18S would report 29 MPH yet only hit 26-27 on the GPS  

 

My choice for you if you must have more speed now are the MSX or Nikola 100V. Nikola 100V might have a touch lower top speed  

 

The monster should also be capable of 40+ mph but it’s pretty sluggish to respond, the other two should accelerate much better. Here is my top speed run on an 18S, riding tiltback the whole time (which the speed graph will show). I will retry this once I get my Nikola and Monster up to the 80% beep.  

Now that is the place for higher speed. I have many trails such as that one. Mind you, 7 or 8 seconds on that trail, I would be on the beeps constantly and be bored. So you got the gist of it.

 

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

For me the biggest problem is a surprisingly long breaking distance. I was surprised a few times with how bad it is.

It requires a specific technique and practice, but even a fast EUC can be stopped in quite a reasonable distance.

 

By the way, Gotway has mentioned coming up with a 126V Nikola. I'm certain it will be the fastest EUC.

[Benphysics]

5 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Doesn't even 12 mph feel a bit fast to you guys? Like I might go 18 mph for brief bursts, but it's 12-15 mph most of the time.

Somewhere between a bicycle (2 wheels) and no wheels (pedestrian) feels about right, although EUC automatically crash when powered off.

I just think EUC of the high performance variety are inappropriate for much more than ~25 mph, because they require great skill and bravery at those speeds. High speed fun they are, but not safely in my opinion. After years of riding them I've settled down to trolling them at 12-15 mph to get somewhere I need to be, OR trick riding them (although I was going to the loo on my hands and knees for a week from a terrible zero mph crash).

However, I do think EUCs can sorta be raced like motorcycles, perhaps at a go-kart track, at the lowest expense of just about any motorized racing.

I've done trackdays on my 600cc motorcycle, and it was always stressful because I couldn't really afford crashing, but you will crash given time on a track. EUC seems far more reasonable.

Actually, the EUC gets much more stable at higher speeds due to the giroscopic effect of the wheel. If you think that 12 to 18 mph seems precarious enough for you, that may just be because you do not feel comfortable enough to go faster. I've live my life always according to my analytic engineering mind. There is this science called physics; and if you have a good grasp of it, you would be inclined to explore it knowing in advance what you are going to have to deal with. When I ride below 10 mph, I find it more difficult than riding at 30 mph, because the wheel becomes more twitchy. If one day you have the guts to reach higher speeds for any duration of time, you would find out that the wheen stabilizes itself past 25 mph. The thing most newby do wrong, is to try to squeeze the wheel between their legs. This is why the wheel wobbles. At higher speeds, you should not hold the wheel between your legs; you should let it free to stabilize itself. any pressure on the upper side of the wheel, forces the wheel to respond 90 deg later which makes want to turn. So the wheel wil cycle between turning in one direction until it presses on you other leg and the opposite occurs. So if you want to ride fast safely, widen your legs to let the wheel stabilize itself. If you practice this. you will become much more confident in you ability to remain in control. If you are turning to the right, your right should be further out while the wheel rests onto your left leg; and vice versa obviously.

These are skills which can be achieved if you understand the physics involved. Fear sometimes prevents us from learning. I'm not saying to go out and try to achieve the skills all at once, but armed with the right tools, one step at a time, you can visit uncharted territories logically.

Cheers.

[Benphysics]

20 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

It requires a specific technique and practice, but even a fast EUC can be stopped in quite a reasonable distance.

 

By the way, Gotway has mentioned coming up with a 126V Nikola. I'm certain it will be the fastest EUC.

Man this has to be the future. lower amps, less heat, means less waste of energy. And the bonus is higher top speed. The cat's ass.

[edwin_rm]

46 minutes ago, Benphysics said:

Thanks, I must sell my 18xl first; then I will get the msx 100v or the Nicola 100v.

Get the Nikola. While both have a comparable top speed in flat terrain, not so much in hilly terrain. The Nikola can go faster uphill than any other wheel, as of the day/time of this post. I don't know the terrain in your region, but here in California is just hills everywhere.

[chrisjunlee]

37 minutes ago, Benphysics said:

Actually, the EUC gets much more stable at higher speeds due to the giroscopic effect of the wheel. If you think that 12 to 18 mph seems precarious enough for you, that may just be because you do not feel comfortable enough to go faster. I've live my life always according to my analytic engineering mind. There is this science called physics; and if you have a good grasp of it, you would be inclined to explore it knowing in advance what you are going to have to deal with. When I ride below 10 mph, I find it more difficult than riding at 30 mph, because the wheel becomes more twitchy. If one day you have the guts to reach higher speeds for any duration of time, you would find out that the wheen stabilizes itself past 25 mph. The thing most newby do wrong, is to try to squeeze the wheel between their legs. This is why the wheel wobbles. At higher speeds, you should not hold the wheel between your legs; you should let it free to stabilize itself. any pressure on the upper side of the wheel, forces the wheel to respond 90 deg later which makes want to turn. So the wheel wil cycle between turning in one direction until it presses on you other leg and the opposite occurs. So if you want to ride fast safely, widen your legs to let the wheel stabilize itself. If you practice this. you will become much more confident in you ability to remain in control. If you are turning to the right, your right should be further out while the wheel rests onto your left leg; and vice versa obviously.

These are skills which can be achieved if you understand the physics involved. Fear sometimes prevents us from learning. I'm not saying to go out and try to achieve the skills all at once, but armed with the right tools, one step at a time, you can visit uncharted territories logically.

Cheers.

How does this explain death wobbles though? To my understanding, it's a runaway process, which is why you have steering dampeners on sportbikes.

But yes, I would love to see the sport of high performance EUC, since that leads to innovations which trickle down to our consumer wheels.

inb4 @mrelwoodtears this idea apart just cause I'm the one suggesting it.

Edited August 10, 2019 by chrisjunlee