Jump to content
prasket

16x Issues Thread

Recommended Posts

What a Greek tragedy 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Mike Paolini said:

Wanted to register a new issue I discovered in the iOS App.  I suspect it will occur on Android also and is simply a reflection of a software issue inside the KS16x, and likely one that is causing the Peddle Tilt post Bluetooth USB fix.

Caught it using 906 with these screen shots after the KS16x tilted first forward 15 degrees, then backward 15 degrees for about 15 seconds at low speed (mph) around a curve.  I had been doing sprints to test the 906 Throttling.

The Average speed is higher than the Max Speed:

 

IMG_3968.jpg

IMG_3969.jpg

I think that's just a bug in the app's calculation. Miscalculation of speed should not cause FORWARD pedal tilt.

Also, we're seeing minor tilts that are nothing like deliberate tiltback.

This is more likely to be a gyro issue. Gyros are very sensitive to RF interference, mechanical stresses, and even have to be cleaned differently from normal components (ultrasonic cleaning can damage MEMS gyros, I hope KingSong knows this).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Jon Stern said:

I think that's just a bug in the app's calculation. Miscalculation of speed should not cause FORWARD pedal tilt.

Also, we're seeing minor tilts that are nothing like deliberate tiltback.

This is more likely to be a gyro issue. Gyros are very sensitive to RF interference, mechanical stresses, and even have to be cleaned differently from normal components (ultrasonic cleaning can damage MEMS gyros, I hope KingSong knows this).

Why do you believe it is an App calculation error rather than an error from the control board and logic and that the isn't just dumb and puling real time numbers from the EUC controller (as it does for amps etc - and this would save porting code between platforms like iOS and Android).  Knowing the average speed to predict battery load for throttling would make sense.  And in this particular case of error, if it was on-board and being used that way, it might also explain why some people saw drastic cuts in speed while others did not on 1.06...

As to miscalculation and forward peddle tilt, by definition it is a miscalculation, an error - just as forward peddle tilt (unless going up a hill) is an error. The nature of the wrong number in a calculation is that it causes errors in output (maybe the wheel things it is trying to catchup with a hard breaking as the average speed suddenly drops from miss assignment for example and so tilts forward?    And if it was in the App and not the Controller, it could be coincidence that the app error and the tilt error happen at about the same time, but isn't it just as likely that they would be tied together rather than independent?

Lastly, hardware error and the gyro certainly seems reasonable  - but in my experience debugging such problems, hardware errors occur a lot more often and consistently than what we're seeing.  Hardware errors tend to be highly reproducible where software errors such as assigning the wrong value to a variable result in more random and unpredictable behavior that is hard track down and reproduce because most of the time the error value in the variably is often still within acceptable range (e.g. average speed and max speed tend to be not too far apart or out of tolerance, and average speed averages down most of the time making it semi correcting... 

In any case, it is speculation, King Song should be able to answer that pretty quick by looking at the App code and finding out if it is calculated in the App or in the EUC itself.  And either way it should be addressed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Mike Paolini said:

Why do you believe it is an App calculation error rather than an error from the control board and logic and that the isn't just dumb and puling real time numbers from the EUC controller (as it does for amps etc - and this would save porting code between platforms like iOS and Android).  Knowing the average speed to predict battery load for throttling would make sense.  And in this particular case of error, if it was on-board and being used that way, it might also explain why some people saw drastic cuts in speed while others did not on 1.06...

As to miscalculation and forward peddle tilt, by definition it is a miscalculation, an error - just as forward peddle tilt (unless going up a hill) is an error. The nature of the wrong number in a calculation is that it causes errors in output (maybe the wheel things it is trying to catchup with a hard breaking as the average speed suddenly drops from miss assignment for example and so tilts forward?    And if it was in the App and not the Controller, it could be coincidence that the app error and the tilt error happen at about the same time, but isn't it just as likely that they would be tied together rather than independent?

Lastly, hardware error and the gyro certainly seems reasonable  - but in my experience debugging such problems, hardware errors occur a lot more often and consistently than what we're seeing.  Hardware errors tend to be highly reproducible where software errors such as assigning the wrong value to a variable result in more random and unpredictable behavior that is hard track down and reproduce because most of the time the error value in the variably is often still within acceptable range (e.g. average speed and max speed tend to be not too far apart or out of tolerance, and average speed averages down most of the time making it semi correcting... 

In any case, it is speculation, King Song should be able to answer that pretty quick by looking at the App code and finding out if it is calculated in the App or in the EUC itself.  And either way it should be addressed.

Well, we are speculating here, so maybe we're both way off. Here's my thinking though.

The average trip speed has no use for the wheel control. That's just a user interface information readout.

Now perhaps the error is in the raw speed data, that could also be used in the wheel control, but I'm guessing it's just an app calculation bug. In part because KS seems to put minimal effort in to their app.

Your comment on gyro hardware errors is incorrect. While that comment is frequently accurate for hardware errors (that they tend to be more consistent), my company has experience with some product yield loss due to a very small percentage of gyros with abnormal behavior. I won't go in to details, as it's proprietary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 9/13/2019 at 9:25 PM, wongster said:

Secondly, (refer to  FB  video at 5:57 mark) Denis described in detail that at 50km/hr, upon moderately hard braking, his 16X went into extreme wobbling for a few sec followed by a crash. (This issue was first reported by Kuji and is supposedly fixed in firmware V1.05)

HI, from my experience with the 16x, I can say that when I got my it was a fact that any attempt to speed it up when it was time to slow down (ones I almost crash with a lot of traffic at my side), so when I got home I started googling woo les problems on Euc and some where I found out that it was because the high tire pressure...  So i drop some PSI(sorry didn't messure how much) and ive been having a blast since then... I take it to 50km with no problems and if I have to slow down I do with just a litttttle wobbly... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ks16x rides great probably with any tire, you just need to adjust to it .i can't see what all the fuss has been about tbh🤔

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, stephen said:

The ks16x rides great probably with any tire, you just need to adjust to it .i can't see what all the fuss has been about tbh🤔

 I can drive my car with the seat adjustments in any position. However I do adjust it to the most comfortable position for me.  I assume 99.9999% of other drivers do the same. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

906 Firmware.  35 PSI, rider weight 220+ 10 pounds of gear.

iOS App reporting max speed 41 mph, external recorder reporting 20 mph.  Average speed seems right, it was a group ride.
IMG_3980.thumb.jpg.18ec6086a5d214506434bb597bee0464.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only one of my brake lights is working..anyone had this problem?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Same question I asked myself few days ago :D

I think you mean the rear lights, not only the brake light function itself?

Nice chinese translation....:w00t2:

Go to LIGHT SETTING > NIGHT LIGHT FLASHING > choose OPEN FLASHING MODE

OPEN FLASHING MODE =

  • both rear lights flashing while driving straight ahead and by standstill
  • if you tilt to on side, other side goes out (turn signal)
  • if you brake, both lights light up constantly (brakelight)

 

CLOSE FLASHING MODE =

  • both rear lights are off
  • if you tilt to on side, this side will flashing (turn signal)
  • if you brake, both lights light up constantly (brakelight)
Edited by buell47

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, buell47 said:

Same question I asked myself few days ago :D

I think you mean the rear lights, not only the brake light function itself?

Nice chinese translation....:w00t2:

Go to LIGHT SETTING > NIGHT LIGHT FLASHING > choose OPEN FLASHING MODE

OPEN FLASHING MODE =

  • both rear lights flashing while driving straight ahead and by standstill
  • if you tilt to on side, other side goes out (turn signal)
  • if you brake, both lights light up constantly (brakelight)

 

CLOSE FLASHING MODE =

  • both rear lights are off
  • if you tilt to on side, this side will flashing (turn signal)
  • if you brake, both lights light up constantly (brakelight)

Did not work.. thanks anyway. Might be with the connection. Btw I have the IOS app

Edited by Afeez Kay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't know if anyone has reported this yet. But if not, the good news is Kingsong has fixed the loose screw in the handle problem so no more threadlocker goop is needed. The bad news, they applied an ugly dollop of white silicone on each screw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just started a new thread regarding my first experience riding in single digit cold. Started at 7C today.
Battery went from 95% to 60% (after recovering) in 18km. Dipped as low as 47% even.
43km total. Battery went down to almost empty.
Monika on the MSX was left with a little more than half battery.
Terrible!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Mike SacristanI ride every day on my 16x to work very early with temp (2-5-7c) I ride about 20km at average speed (34-40km/h) and it use (20% bat <3-4v>) and in summer was using (12-15%),the coldest the temp, the fastest the bat drain... 👉👉

(fw 1.07)...

 

On a side note is anybody else getting forward tilt on(fw 1.07),  it doesn't do it as often as before but still is happening other than that 👍👍👍👍to the new fw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ArqFG said:

@Mike SacristanI ride every day on my 16x to work very early with temp (2-5-7c) I ride about 20km at average speed (34-40km/h) and it use (20% bat <3-4v>) and in summer was using (12-15%),the coldest the temp, the fastest the bat drain... 👉👉

(fw 1.07)...

 

On a side note is anybody else getting forward tilt on(fw 1.07),  it doesn't do it as often as before but still is happening other than that 👍👍👍👍to the new fw

Finally a cold rider!
20km took my battery down to 50% today with the MSX still at 75%.

I will try again tomorrow. Thanks for sharing!

I am still on fw 1.05 and get some forward tilt below 50% battery if I have the bluetooth speakers on and play music.
You should check out the 1.07 thread and post there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heyy people, I got the KS16X yesterday, The version is 1.01 and on new KS App they have only the 1.07

 

The upgrade doesn't work, I click on uograde and then the screen keep spinning arround but any progress bar of transfert or nothing.

Someone can help or give informations about this?? 

 

Thanks a lot everyone and ride safe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did you put it on its side? KS even says, on the left side.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/4/2019 at 12:28 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Very good idea! Thank you.

Things I can remember. I hope everything is correct.

  • Firmware 1.03 fixes the high speed/stress oscillation problem and will be out in a few days. Recommended everyone update to this firmware as soon as possible as a safety precaution. Source
  • There is another problem where the pedals will not stay level and regularly show a very slow oscillation in some cases which makes the wheel unridable. This might be a hardware problem. Kingsong may or may not have stopped 16X production temporarily to fix this (board modification I guess). Not entirely clear what is going on, here's the source: click
    I would expect any good dealer to be informed about this and only ship out wheels with the fix from now on. That is conjecture.
  • The 16X has a notable "gyro effect" where it becomes hard to turn the wheel above a certain speed, it will try to keep going straight. Like the Z10. This is due to the standard tire that comes with it (the one with a colored stripe on one side). Replacing the tire with a different one, like the CST tire the Nikola has or the Chao Yang tire the 16X prototype had, removes the gyro effect almost entirely. This is only due to the standard tire that comes with the 16X, nothing is wrong with the 16X itself.

On the wobbly-wheel issue... I had a major breakthrough today!  The tire on my 16X is simply off-center:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1443sw4hk131tul/IMG_1727.mov?dl=0

Now... does anybody know someone in Colorado who can help me remount and balance it??

-J.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

That is indeed easily big enough to cause wobbles while riding. Did you ensure that the rim itself is running straight? If it is, you can surely make the tire better yourself!

Lay the wheel on it’s side and deflate the tire. Rotate the tire with your hand, and whenever you see the line or other markings on the tire get further away from the rim, push the tire towards the rim. And vice versa.

Look at the tire from a few different angles to see any sideways movement, and take your time to bend, twist, push and pull so that the tire would run straight.

Once you can’t get it any better, pump just two pumpfuls of air to the tire, and repeat the process.

Repeat until you can’t shape the tire by hand anymore, and pump it all the way to riding pressure. Done!

It will not be perfect, but it should be a lot better than how it currently is.

Thank you!  I will try it!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, JZT-Colorado said:

On the wobbly-wheel issue... I had a major breakthrough today!  The tire on my 16X is simply off-center:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1443sw4hk131tul/IMG_1727.mov?dl=0

Now... does anybody know someone in Colorado who can help me remount and balance it??

-J.

Hmmm... I need to check that.   During a ride today, I noticed speed wobble is affected by my foot position. The wider the better, but my heals have to grab the wheel (I've been bounced off before).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So i was out riding yesterday and was doing good carving and fast acceleration and braking the wheel/tyre felt incredibly good so headed home and thought I'm keeping it at this pressure all the time,, it was on 35 psi i actually thought I'd lost some pressure out , I've noticed this a few times when riding it must be the compound of the tyre softens up because of heat with tyre rotation,, this wheel is incredible for my riding i love it ,,so bloody zippy 😁😁😁 makes me do this all day👉:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/5/2019 at 10:41 PM, mrelwood said:

That is indeed easily big enough to cause wobbles while riding. Did you ensure that the rim itself is running straight? If it is, you can surely make the tire better yourself!

Lay the wheel on it’s side and deflate the tire. Rotate the tire with your hand, and whenever you see the line or other markings on the tire get further away from the rim, push the tire towards the rim. And vice versa.

Look at the tire from a few different angles to see any sideways movement, and take your time to bend, twist, push and pull so that the tire would run straight.

Once you can’t get it any better, pump just two pumpfuls of air to the tire, and repeat the process.

Repeat until you can’t shape the tire by hand anymore, and pump it all the way to riding pressure. Done!

It will not be perfect, but it should be a lot better than how it currently is.

Ok... I tried all this... no change.  :/

Jason at eWheels was great, though: I went ahead and shipped it back to him and he said he'll figure out how to get it centered... or will replace the tire.

Strange observation I noticed while doing all this testing:  Normally I keep one leg or the other pressed against the case when I accelerate, and I never noticed wobbly on acceleration... but while testing I pulled my feet out so they weren't touching the case at all... and it actually wobbles quite a bit on acceleration if I do that (mostly between 12-20MPH and then smoothes-out)... but when I DEcelerate with my feet apart, I do not get very much wobble... whereas if my legs touch the case at all on deceleration, I get significant (and dangerous) wobble.  Can't understand logically why there is this 180-degree difference between the wobble-mitigation on foot-spread between acceleration and deceleration... very weird...

Anyone out there have any insights?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, JZT-Colorado said:

Anyone out there have any insights?

This is what I have learned while I had to relearn to ride EUC. It might not be applicable to you or anyone else, but still here goes. 

The short version:

I come to believe that the motor strength vs wheel size vs pedal hight is an equation, very similar to the triangle of fire. That mean to get a fire, you need oxygen, fuel and heat. 

Now by this I mean to have a strong motor, you need a longer distance to control it so that leads to a lower pedal height or a bigger wheel. Do you choose a bigger wheel then you loose the motor strength so you are back to the balances of forces again. 

What you end up with is a sweet spot. The KS16X do not sit in that, meaning KS decided to build a torquey wheel at the expense of rider control. 

So the longer explanation to the above. I have a weak knee, meaning I adapted an asynchronous stan/balance. I call this a speed and brake foot stand. 

That do not work well on the KS16X for me as the strength to maintain control to avoid wobbles are outside my knee and leg strength. That is why it took me about 300km to adjust. I had to rebuild my stand and leds and muscle memory. 

I am not fully there yet. And I am sensitive to being a tiny bit of my foot placement. And this get a lot worse when my legs get tired or if I have to take a hard bump at higher speed on my leg/knee suspension. 

So since you have a shorted distance between pedals, wheel axel and combined with high torque/watt motor, it takes much more skill to avoid wobbles and catching them subconscious before they get noticeable and out of control. 

This is the best way I can describe it. But this is also why it is rewarding to ride the KS16X, and why it will keep you on an edge all the time. 

It might sound as a bad thing, but to me this has been great expirearance and partly why I love my KS16X. 

So might have more raw strength in their body and adapt easier/faster. Some will never get this right. 

Feel free to agree or disagree with me on this. This is my observation as I have ridden my wheel and the transformation my EUC skills has undergone so far. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/6/2019 at 2:54 AM, stephen said:

So i was out riding yesterday and was doing good carving and fast acceleration and braking the wheel/tyre felt incredibly good so headed home and thought I'm keeping it at this pressure all the time,, it was on 35 psi i actually thought I'd lost some pressure out , I've noticed this a few times when riding it must be the compound of the tyre softens up because of heat with tyre rotation,, this wheel is incredible for my riding i love it ,,so bloody zippy 😁😁😁 makes me do this all day👉:D

Man, I tried 36 for a few days (I weigh a hefty 215 lbs) and it jarred my teeth, BUT, I ride a lot in grass and gravel, it felt good on the tarmac though, as long as it was smooth, but any curbs or bumps and it was harsh, I learned on 28 lbs and never felt an issue to change it but that 36 I tried wasn't good for me, I dropped it down to 30 and it's nice and smooth and still turns good for me, I honestly think my sweet spot is between 28-30.  Have you tried anything around 25-30 just for kicks?  I ask cause you have tons more experience than I and I'm still learning, I'm all over anything with 2 wheels but this one wheel stuff is all new to me:/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...