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Marty Backe

126-Volt Nikola

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Backfire just released the Ranger X2, successor to the X1. Battery-wise they went from a 10S config to a 12S. The result is that their board weighs 4kg less (10 vs 14, that's a huge difference) and the range stayed the same. Here is their explanation:

 

New Backfire Ranger X2 uses 12S 50.4V electronic system, 12S battery, ESC and motors.

Here is why Backfire chooses 12s 50.4V high voltage system as the next general-purpose system.

When energy is conserved, it can be converted into different forms. The electric energy generated by the battery will convert, in part, into heat.

If one can reduce the heat generated by the battery, the saved energy can be used to generate more power, thus more range.

There will also be heat generated by the friction of the motor parts. When the current is reduced, the energy consumption from the battery can be greatly reduced, and, in turn, so will the heat generated by the motor.  

This energy saving is in the form of kinetic energy, which supplies the motor. That is to say, by reducing the energy consumption and improving the efficiency of the whole system, the skateboard can achieve more range.

This formula may be familiar: P = UI

Power = Voltage * Current
 
When the input power remains unchanged, as long as we increase the voltage, we can reduce the current, so as to reduce the heating of the whole system and improve the efficiency. Therefore, the 12S electronic system (voltage is 50.4V when fully charged) is far superior to the 10S electronic system (voltage is 42V when fully charged), which is commonly used in the market.

 

https://www.backfireboards.com/collections/electric-skateboards/products/backfire-ranger-x2-all-terrain-electric-skateboard-with-1200w-x2-ultra-high-power-ultra-high-torque-motors-and-12s-high-voltage-high-efficiency-electronic-system

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Good info!

Maybe there is no efficiency difference between 84V and 100V wheels (possibly except at higher speeds, as some say) because the mosfets and motor are equally hot in both cases. I guess overheating is a bigger problem for the tiny eboard motors, while our huge EUC motors get cooled about equally. Maybe the 126V Nikola will be notably cooler, and then really be more efficient. Interesting!

Can't wait to see some results (aka Marty 1600Wh 84V vs 1600Wh 126V range test)!

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10 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Can't wait to see some results (aka Marty 1600Wh 84V vs 1600Wh 126V range test)!

Get 2 people with both euc's. "BoP" them so they both have the same weight before heading off, and have them do a trip together and see who has to stop first :D 

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1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

I've changed my mind on the voltage. I was wrong. I think the bigger voltages offer more power

May I ask what drew you to this conclusion? I’ve not yet seen anyone being too certain even after a direct comparison test ride.

 

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

And please, who doesn't like to own the fastest 'sports car's on the planet 😁

I wouldn’t! The insurance costs alone... Sheesh!

I wish I could read about experiences (instead of theories) on how they ride differently.

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Posted (edited)

@Marty Backe just got done with the Nikola 100v range test video; another good one keep it up :thumbup:

i noticed you aren't wearing your Leatt 5.5 body protector any more, any reason? I was going to get one. Looks like you still wear the dual axis knee/shin guards.. 

Edited by Mitch
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On 8/10/2019 at 2:36 AM, Mitch said:

@Marty Backe just got done with the Nikola 100v range test video; another good one keep it up :thumbup:

i noticed you aren't wearing your Leatt 5.5 body protector any more, any reason? I was going to get one. Looks like you still wear the dual axis knee/shin guards.. 

I still wear all the Leatt gear. It just depends on the kind of riding I'm doing and how hot it is (there's no getting around the fact that all of that plastic protection makes for a hot ride). For hot weather I've been wearing the Leatt Body T-shirt for my shoulder protection - which is what I'm wearing in the Nikola 100v range test video.

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So I can understand why higher voltages are more efficient at higher speeds. But what about them being less efficient at lower speeds? What's the physics behind that?

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15 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

So I can understand why higher voltages are more efficient at higher speeds. But what about them being less efficient at lower speeds? What's the physics behind that?

Main takeaway is don't go slow!!  

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On 8/11/2019 at 6:14 PM, Marty Backe said:

Within the next couple of days I'm going to attempt to compare the power (acceleration and torque) between the two wheels. Hopefully I'll be able to tell you if there is any objective riding difference between the two (except for top-end speed). This will be in my 100-volt Nikola thread.

would be great if you can make a acceleration comparison between the two... perhaps you can get some times from them with a stopwatch. 

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The most objective test would be a blind test, whereby the rider does not know if he has the 100V or the 84V version under their feet.

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17 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

The most objective test would be a blind test, whereby the rider does not know if he has the 100V or the 84V version under their feet.

plot twist: Gotway slips in their new 378V Nikola Plus XR

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Just now, chrisjunlee said:

plot twist: Gotway slips in their new 378V Nikola Plus XR

I'll just go for the 200V Pint version then.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, chrisjunlee said:

So I can understand why higher voltages are more efficient at higher speeds. But what about them being less efficient at lower speeds? What's the physics behind that?

My guess is that it has to do with the relation between voltage and current. The force of an electromagnetic field depends on the strength and movement of said current. 

Here is a nice explanation: https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-whats-relationship-voltage-dc-motor-output-speed/

Edited by wheelr
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23 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

The most objective test would be a blind test, whereby the rider does not know if he has the 100V or the 84V version under their feet.

a guy riding an euc blindfolded just popped in my head

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1 minute ago, Rywokast said:

a guy riding an euc blindfolded just popped in my head

we can do a reverse dog cone

Image result for reverse dog cone

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10 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

plot twist: Gotway slips in their new 378V Nikola Plus XR

If they shipped a 42V Nicola Sport, that would be a twist.

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1 hour ago, Lukas83 said:

would be great if you can make a acceleration comparison between the two... perhaps you can get some times from them with a stopwatch. 

I'm a little paranoid of what can go wrong with speed/acceleration tests, so I don't do them anymore. Once I experienced Death Wobbles when attempting an extreme acceleration test. And you are putting an extreme load on the electronics.

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39 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

I'll just go for the 200V Pint version then.

tfw a one week pre-order turns into a one-year wait time

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30 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm a little paranoid of what can go wrong with speed/acceleration tests, so I don't do them anymore. Once I experienced Death Wobbles when attempting an extreme acceleration test. And you are putting an extreme load on the electronics.

This..

Sure acceleration test is fun to watch guys but no one is able accelerate two different wheel at the same amount of power such as 80% and 80%. All we can do is just asked the tester which wheel "feels" faster and take their word for it..

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the real benefit of increasing Voltage is reduce Current (amps, heat...) but , the most important thing is distribute total load to more cells, this gave us less battery-sag and more efficiency (more km for us :D ).

but to achieve this you need to change the KV of the motor, right now seems that 84v and 100v share the same, i think 126v will be different.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Emanuele Tomasello said:

the real benefit of increasing Voltage is reduce Current (amps, heat...) but , the most important thing is distribute total load to more cells, this gave us less battery-sag and more efficiency (more km for us :D ).

Just in case anybody understood the point wrong (like I did on the first read): Lower voltage wheels distribute the load to more parallel cell blocks. High voltage requires more cells to be connected in series, so fewer cells remain to be connected parallel.

Higher voltage wheels (with the same battery size) do have this as a drawback.

Edit: It seems this is not a drawback after all. The distribution happens between the total number of cells, not just parallel battery blocks.

Edited by mrelwood
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