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Marty Backe

126-Volt Nikola

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm fully aware of this.

I don't know of anyone who actually owns this wheel yet.

oh ok wasnt sure.. neither am i.. wtf is taking so long i got a tracking number for mine last week but it still hasnt updated, longest ive ever waited for a wheel by far though not entirely the sellers fault due to the issues there was a delay of like three weeks they told me before they could get their hands on them to ship out to customers, gotway fixed the problems with all of the models they had on hand i believe and also were im sure busy sending out new boards.. im glad to know at least that everything has been ironed out so there should be no issues with mine.. i had no idea until the other day that the 84V plus version was all black i always assumed it was only the 100V versions, as all sellers at the time were only displaying the black and white version in the pics while using the all black pictures for only the 100V versions,, was only until I checked again out of curiosity that I saw another seller in the description say the 2100 wh version is all black, even though they still are using exclusively the white models pictures for the 2100 listing haha.. was fully expecting mine to be black and white, very glad to hear that its the all black shell

Edited by Rywokast

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13 hours ago, Chriull said:

 

Getting the voltage up gives one proportional higher top speed with the same motor, as @esaj wrote.

But driving at the same speed with the same burden will "burn" the same power as this motor driven with 100V or 84V (if they still can take this "operating point"). The 126 just increases the area of torque over speed == usable "operation points". As at low speeds all 3 version are strong enough to melt and unsolder their wires going to the motor this "increase" won't change to much. Just at higher speed one has more reserve power.

As the wheels are already quite fast and powerfull one could go the other way and take a different motor to reach with the 126V setup the same max speed as with the 84V version.

This would lead to 84/126 = 66% current needed for the same torque output. Leading to 0.66*0.66=0.44% power dissipation for the mosfets/wires and connectors.

... one would then just have 30 cells in series instead of 20... I don't know if i'd really like that - could increase the chance to get bad/aged cells ... At least some kind of cell voltage surveillance should be implemented by then...

I reread this a few time and still can't get through my thick head what this means..

Does higher voltage just increase motor torque? is this assuming that amperage remain the same so an overall increase in the wattage delivered?

Am I correct to say that in a higher voltage system, the same number of electrons will delivery a greater amount of wattage at the cost of requiring more cells for storage?

Also, what is changed in a higher voltage system? does all the wiring and components have to be more robust to handle the higher voltage or less since the amperage requirement is either the same or reduced?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Hsiang said:

I reread this a few time and still can't get through my thick head what this means..

Does higher voltage just increase motor torque? is this assuming that amperage remain the same so an overall increase in the wattage delivered?

Am I correct to say that in a higher voltage system, the same number of electrons will delivery a greater amount of wattage at the cost of requiring more cells for storage?

Also, what is changed in a higher voltage system? does all the wiring and components have to be more robust to handle the higher voltage or less since the amperage requirement is either the same or reduced?

This is starting to get into Electronics 101.

By itself, higher voltage does not equate to more torque. We don't have access to the Gotway schematics. But in general, given the same delivered power, a higher voltage system will correspond to lower amperage consumption. So there is less current flowing through the motor wires (a good thing). As previously explained by @houseofjob in some other thread, the Z10 has huge amount of real estate allocated for heat dissipation because of the increased amount of current flowing through the system because it's a lower voltage wheel.

So the wiring can be less robust, but the circuitry must be changed to accommodate the higher voltages.

Empirically we see that the higher voltage wheels have a higher top-end speed. We believe there's less torque, but I'm not convinced anyone has quantitatively demonstrated this. 

Edited by Marty Backe

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Whatcha got there fellas? ..numbers?:eff02518bb:

 I like to go real fast!

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One thing to keep in mind is that cell count ultimately determines the power that can be created. The various models of the Nikola have different cell counts. The 2100wh 84v unit has 160 cells. The 1845wh 100v unit has 144 cells. These new 126V units could have 120 or 150 cells. We aren't sure yet. 

Do we know that the KV of the motor is the same between the different voltage models? If not it becomes even hard to do an apples to apples comparison between voltages.

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A 70mph speed limit was put imposed on British motorways in 1965. Prior to this there was no limit.

The popular story is that the limit was the direct result of an AC Cobra driving at 185mph in a test run to prepare for Le Mans.

That direct cause and effect is a myth. The law was enacted three years after that drive, but when it was passed it did so with wide-spread public support. It's hard to believe that the public furor after that speed run wasn't a contributor.

Anyway, the moral of this story is that ever-faster EUCs are going to lead to a public backlash (it'd just take one child to be killed by a speeding rider), which will lead to restrictions in the US (12mph firmware-locked maximum speed anyone?).

We can argue that our 2kV Gotway Faraday is no more dangerous than a motorcycle (or a bicycle being ridden downhill fast), but that won't matter. New machines get banned, while ones that have been around for living memory get a pass.

Of course this might happen anyway if all PEVs are demonized by escooter rentals, but do we want to make this inevitable?

 

 

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54 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

A 70mph speed limit was put imposed on British motorways in 1965. Prior to this there was no limit.

The popular story is that the limit was the direct result of an AC Cobra driving at 185mph in a test run to prepare for Le Mans.

That direct cause and effect is a myth. The law was enacted three years after that drive, but when it was passed it did so with wide-spread public support. It's hard to believe that the public furor after that speed run wasn't a contributor.

Anyway, the moral of this story is that ever-faster EUCs are going to lead to a public backlash (it'd just take one child to be killed by a speeding rider), which will lead to restrictions in the US (12mph firmware-locked maximum speed anyone?).

We can argue that our 2kV Gotway Faraday is no more dangerous than a motorcycle (or a bicycle being ridden downhill fast), but that won't matter. New machines get banned, while ones that have been around for living memory get a pass.

Of course this might happen anyway if all PEVs are demonized by escooter rentals, but do we want to make this inevitable?

We can talk/argue about this until we are blue in the face. The Chinese don't visit this Forum and barely visit Facebook. I don't think they care much about what we think. And saying, "Don't buy their wheels" will be as effective as any other boycott in the world.

Personally, I would love to own a wheel that could go 70-mph because of the safety margin that I would get for free at my 25-mph max speed. Same reason that I don't want to own a car that tops out at 100-mph.

EUCs are so incredibly niche I can't see widespread effective bans ever taking place. Everyone (including cops) know what escooters are. I argue that 20-years from now most cops still won't know what EUCs are.

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I'm being told by someone in the industry in China that 100v is already unstable, so 126v would be worse. I've no idea, thoughs? 

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3 minutes ago, Jean Dublin said:

I'm being told by someone in the industry in China that 100v is already unstable, so 126v would be worse. I've no idea, thoughs? 

What exactly is unstable?  The connections in the cells? 

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14 hours ago, Chriull said:

It also took quite some time for me to get some basic understanding of EUCs. Still many questions open, but my electronics education long time ago helped a lit

 

No. Voltage is one variable. Motor is the second (number if windings per pol, etc...)

The current in the windings creates a magnetic field. That works "against" the permanent magnets and delivers some force. That gives the torque pushing us forward.

So the coil impedance, the voltage, the number of windings, the permanent magnets strength are the main variables to determine this force/torque.

Beside this the coil resistance, ferromagnetic losses and many other efficiency parameters have still quite some influence.

So asking the question if voltage makes no sense without knowing the other parameters. So normally if i state something like this i try to "define" the motor. Eadiest options either the same or one with the same max no load speed at the different voltages. But that's all with ignorance to the secondary parameters, of which i have no idea beside that they exist :wacko:

Wattage has no real impact. Besides beeing mostly just some number advertised there is no definition of lost power and  "impact" power. Or if this is motor output/capability power and/or if the rest of the system can provide tjis power for the motor. Interesting is the force created by the magnetic field of the coils (which is imho current times windings) against the magnetic field of the petmanent magnets.

So the whole EUC output power - the acceleration capability. 

Voltage is just one of many variables to possibly influence this.

Capacitors are sensitive to voltage and have to be specced right. Mosfets are readily available with great specs for beliw 100V, above somewhere around such a border they get "worse". But if one can reduce the current by a higher voltage setup there is the possibility to still improve the system. Again a "delicate" design desicission which has to be calculated for some specific system.

Ps.: Many typos and slightly missed topicd. It's quite late around here... Hope it's still understandable. Maybe i correct this lateron.

I get that the motor plays a huge part in determining the output; however assuming if the motor is identical which I believe is he case with all current Nikola model, both 84v, 100v and the 126v. And assuming that all 3 voltages all falls within the designed voltage of the motor used, going by what eddie says. Then when the voltage increase, the amp draw would drop, the rpm increases to correspond to the increase in voltage but the torque drop in correspond to the drop in amp draw. Is this right?

then there's this bit I found on the web in regards to the effect of increasing the voltage on motor "Effects of high voltage. An assumption people often make is that since low voltage increases the amperage draw on motors, then high voltage must reduce the amperage draw and heating of the motor. This is not the case. High voltage on a motor tends to push the magnetic portion of the motor into saturation. This causes the motor to draw excessive current in an effort to magnetize the iron beyond the point where magnetizing is practical."

Sounds like the original design parameter for the motor really determines if the step up to 126v makes sense. Do we know what that is since it is the same motor?

 

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Posted (edited)

As @eddiemoymentioned, it’s all depends on how the motor is designed. KV ratings are important in determining top speed. For quadcopters, I vaguely remember the motor being the bottleneck

1 hour ago, Hsiang said:

High voltage on a motor tends to push the magnetic portion of the motor into saturation. This causes the motor to draw excessive current in an effort to magnetize the iron beyond the point where magnetizing is practical."

@Hsiangeh, that sounds like pseudoscience. We’re nowhere near hitting high electromagnetic limits (not even near 1 Tesla. MRI machines are like 4 Tesla’s).

How would that explain electric car motors? IIRC, Prius traction motors run at 400 volts? 

@eddiemoyhas provided as definitive an answer as we can get. As he mentioned, there is so much else besides voltage. I’m impressed.

Edited by chrisjunlee

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10 hours ago, Jon Stern said:

Of course this might happen anyway if all PEVs are demonized by escooter rentals, but do we want to make this inevitable?

History says the more popular it gets, without any regulation, it will be inevitable.

So really we should just stop posting, shut this forum down and stop posting videos on social media, etc.

But we don't. :lol:

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14 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

History says the more popular it gets, without any regulation, it will be inevitable.

So really we should just stop posting, shut this forum down and stop posting videos on social media, etc.

But we don't. :lol:

First rule of P-electric club 🤫

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10 hours ago, Jon Stern said:

We can argue that our 2kV Gotway Faraday is no more dangerous than a motorcycle

Am I the only one that appreciates this joke? 😆

10 hours ago, Jon Stern said:

which will lead to restrictions in the US (12mph firmware-locked maximum speed anyone?).

Went from Gotway Faraday to Gotway Newton 😂🤣

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I think it will be a Gotway Hertz :)

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4 hours ago, Hsiang said:

I get that the motor plays a huge part in determining the output; however assuming if the motor is identical which I believe is he case with all current Nikola model, both 84v, 100v and the 126v. And assuming that all 3 voltages all falls within the designed voltage of the motor used, going by what eddie says. Then when the voltage increase, the amp draw would drop, the rpm increases to correspond to the increase in voltage but the torque drop in correspond to the drop in amp draw. Is this right?

Sorry cant follow this...:ph34r:

Rpm is proportional to _motor_ voltage, torque proportional to the motor current. 

So if one drives with the same speed and burden one of the three wheels they have the same motor voltage and motor current. The motor driver of the 126V version has to step down the battery voltage more than the 84V version. So the _battery_ current will be lower with the 126V version. 

The 126V version can drive faster and deliver more torque. Maximum torque may depend on the power delivery capabilities of the different battery configurations (or the melting motor wires) and a bit on the different efficiencies of the motor driver.

4 hours ago, Hsiang said:

"Effects of high voltage. An assumption people often make is that since low voltage increases the amperage draw on motors, then high voltage must reduce the amperage draw and heating of the motor. This is not the case. High voltage on a motor tends to push the magnetic portion of the motor into saturation. This causes the motor to draw excessive current in an effort to magnetize the iron beyond the point where magnetizing is practical."

I'd assume that the motors are not operated under such borderline conditions, that the iron parts get into magnetic saturation.

Would imho hinder the selfbalancing abilities of the wheels...

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23 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't think I ever said it was. I said that I prefer the Nikola Plus. Just so happens that the Plus is a 100-volt wheel.

When I get the 126-volt Nikola, assuming that it's 1600wh, I'll finally be able to do a apples-to-apples comparison between the 84v and 126v versions of the same wheel. Maybe we'll discover that the higher voltage wheels actually get better gas mileage.

Finally, I do plan on some direct comparison between the 100v and 84v Nikola's to see if I can tell a difference in torque, acceleration, etc. Then I might be able to say 100-volts is better in every aspect (except cost)

At higher speeds you will undoubtedly get more range at higher speeds as it takes less current to achieve it.  The downside is, you will be somewhat less efficient at lower speeds.

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2 hours ago, Chriull said:

Sorry cant follow this...:ph34r:

Rpm is proportional to _motor_ voltage, torque proportional to the motor current. 

So if one drives with the same speed and burden one of the three wheels they have the same motor voltage and motor current. The motor driver of the 126V version has to step down the battery voltage more than the 84V version. So the _battery_ current will be lower with the 126V version. 

The 126V version can drive faster and deliver more torque. Maximum torque may depend on the power delivery capabilities of the different battery configurations (or the melting motor wires) and a bit on the different efficiencies of the motor driver.

I'd assume that the motors are not operated under such borderline conditions, that the iron parts get into magnetic saturation.

Would imho hinder the selfbalancing abilities of the wheels...

watt for watt, there will be less current required to attain the same watt output as an 84 or 100V wheel.  The existing wires should be less stressed all else equal at the same speeds. 

e.g.

 

84V *20A = 1680W

126V *20A = 2520W. 

 

Whether the new motor is efficient enough to handle that much power, is another story.  I think 126V is going to need a corresponding beefier motor (3000W nominal) to be of any real use.  

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7 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

watt for watt, there will be less current required to attain the same watt output as an 84 or 100V wheel.

At the battery side. Yes. But the battery wires are not the one that ever melted.

7 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

  The existing wires should be less stressed all else equal at the same speeds. 

No. The motor wires get the same current. How should the same motor at the same speed  (everything equal but the supplying battery) behave the same with a different current!

7 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

e.g.

84V *20A = 1680W

126V *20A = 2520W. 

There is not the battery voltage at the motor. Its reduced by the motor driver according to the speed (pwm) and burden.

So, if the motor requires for a certain speed and burden for example 40V and 30A (40V * 30A = 1200W motor input power) the 84V battery will be burdened with 30A *40 V/84V = 14,3A. So delivering 84V * 14.3A = 1200W again (ignoring the converter losses).

The 126V battery would be burdened with 30A * 40V / 126V= 9.5A. Leading to 126V * 9.5A = 1200W again...

For more details see

 

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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

What exactly is unstable?  The connections in the cells? 

I asked and was told the controller burns easily (100v).

Edited by Jean Dublin

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2 hours ago, Jean Dublin said:

I asked and was told the controller burns easily (100v).

Haven’t heard any reports of the 100v burning up.  I think the initial problem was from the assembly.  Maybe a noob was putting it together and applied some insulating glue.  Don’t think this was reported in any v100’s. 

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7 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Haven’t heard any reports of the 100v burning up.  I think the initial problem was from the assembly.  Maybe a noob was putting it together and applied some insulating glue.  Don’t think this was reported in any v100’s. 

I think it may have been a misunderstanding or rumour in China about the problems you mention. 

As I've asked if it happened to anyone in China and I was told "more in foreign countries". If I find out anything I'll share. 

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On 8/6/2019 at 12:45 PM, chrisjunlee said:

Am I the only one that appreciates this joke? 😆

Went from Gotway Faraday to Gotway Newton 😂🤣

 

On 8/6/2019 at 1:55 PM, Planemo said:

I think it will be a Gotway Hertz :)

Now that's funny!

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