My 100-volt Nikola Plus Triumphs, Tribulations, and Failures

[mrelwood]

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Looks like my ACM won't be sent to the glue factory for another while.

You mean the Gotway Nikola factory, or...?

[maltocs]

I got the Nikola Plus back from Marty this week. He kept it in amazingly great condition. A year from now I'll look at my beat up Nikola Plus and watch Marty's youtube video on the unboxing and maybe shed a tear. But until then, the testing continues!

I decided to take my 200lb self in this 89F temps today on my own mountain proving ground to get it to kick me off. I forgot to bring the pebble watch so I rode i with my wheellog phone in hand while watching the numbers. It seems to run in the low to mid 50's most of the time on flats, but when I did my mountain loop, twice, it kicked me off at 64F. I let it cool a bit and did the loop again and it hoovered at 62-63 not kicking me off. I did it a 4th time much faster and pushing it and again, it kicks back again at 64F.

When it tilts back, it beeps constantly. I watched the numbers and when wheellog solidly shows 63F, the beeps stop and it slowly uprights itself. It took about 90s or so. I never tried to turn it off and back on again or push the button under the handle to see if it resets quicker. 

[ir_fuel]

1 hour ago, maltocs said:

It seems to run in the low to mid 50's most of the time on flats, but when I did my mountain loop, twice, it kicked me off at 64F. I let it cool a bit and did the loop again and it hoovered at 62-63 not kicking me off. I did it a 4th time much faster and pushing it and again, it kicks back again at 64F.

Are we talking temperatures here?

If we are, I presume that's Celcius, as 64F is pretty cool  

[maltocs]

15 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Are we talking temperatures here?

If we are, I presume that's Celcius, as 64F is pretty cool  

yes, my bad, I'm juggling temps here. 64C on the wheel log app made the wheel beep and tilt back, and the ambient temps during the test were 89F. 

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, maltocs said:

I got the Nikola Plus back from Marty this week. He kept it in amazingly great condition. A year from now I'll look at my beat up Nikola Plus and watch Marty's youtube video on the unboxing and maybe shed a tear. But until then, the testing continues!

I decided to take my 200lb self in this 89F temps today on my own mountain proving ground to get it to kick me off. I forgot to bring the pebble watch so I rode i with my wheellog phone in hand while watching the numbers. It seems to run in the low to mid 50's most of the time on flats, but when I did my mountain loop, twice, it kicked me off at 64F. I let it cool a bit and did the loop again and it hoovered at 62-63 not kicking me off. I did it a 4th time much faster and pushing it and again, it kicks back again at 64F.

When it tilts back, it beeps constantly. I watched the numbers and when wheellog solidly shows 63F, the beeps stop and it slowly uprights itself. It took about 90s or so. I never tried to turn it off and back on again or push the button under the handle to see if it resets quicker. 

 

3 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Are we talking temperatures here?

If we are, I presume that's Celcius, as 64F is pretty cool  

Unfortunately, the Nikola overheats way too easy. Two steps forward, one step back, with Gotway. I thought we were done with overheating wheels a couple of years ago, but nope. Gotway lowered the overtemp value from 79 to 65 degrees.

If I start riding mine in temperatures or conditions which cause it to overheat, I'll probably consider adding another fan and some ventilation holes

[maltocs]

23 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

 

Unfortunately, the Nikola overheats way too easy. Two steps forward, one step back, with Gotway. I thought we were done with overheating wheels a couple of years ago, but nope. Gotway lowered the overtemp value from 79 to 65 degrees.

 

So correct me if i'm wrong, but there are TWO reason why wheels fail, i'm talking electronics.

1) high temps case the mosfets or cpu to fail, and

2) sustained high amps cause the mosfets to blow regardless of temps. 

There is a fail safe for the high temps, but there is no fail safe for sustained high amps.

IF this is the case, then I have to wonder if they lowered the temp tiltback tolerance to an super low level to compensate for the lack of an amperage fail safe.

I'm just guessing as I have experience in electronics. 

[Marty Backe]

10 minutes ago, maltocs said:

So correct me if i'm wrong, but there are TWO reason why wheels fail, i'm talking electronics.

1) high temps case the mosfets or cpu to fail, and

2) sustained high amps cause the mosfets to blow regardless of temps. 

There is a fail safe for the high temps, but there is no fail safe for sustained high amps.

IF this is the case, then I have to wonder if they lowered the temp tiltback tolerance to an super low level to compensate for the lack of an amperage fail safe.

I'm just guessing as I have experience in electronics. 

Kind of tricky to separate those two bullet points.

MOSFET's don't fail directly from the current. It's the high continuous current which causes excessive heat buildup which can cause the MOSFETs to fail. I've never heard of any other EUC components (CPU, etc) failing because of heat.

Your bottom line theory sounds plausible although I don't think the Nikola consumes dramatically more current than other wheels in their lineup.

Maybe Gotway has decided to be ultra conservative. But people are starting to complain about the Nikola overheating which is not good for their brand - people started buying more Gotway back in the day because they wouldn't overheat like KingSong was prone to do. KingSong no longer overheats, but now Gotway is going to ???

[ir_fuel]

4 hours ago, maltocs said:

So correct me if i'm wrong, but there are TWO reason why wheels fail, i'm talking electronics.

1) high temps case the mosfets or cpu to fail, and

2) sustained high amps cause the mosfets to blow regardless of temps. 

There is a fail safe for the high temps, but there is no fail safe for sustained high amps.

IF this is the case, then I have to wonder if they lowered the temp tiltback tolerance to an super low level to compensate for the lack of an amperage fail safe.

I'm just guessing as I have experience in electronics. 

Sustained amps cause heat which causes components to fail. So in the end it's the same.

Also sustained amps can melt wires.

[maltocs]

12 hours ago, maltocs said:

I'm just guessing as I have experience in electronics. 

I meant to say I have NO experience in electronics

Thanks for entertaining my theories.

12 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Kind of tricky to separate those two bullet points.

 

8 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Sustained amps cause heat which causes components to fail. So in the end it's the same.

Also sustained amps can melt wires.

Marty, you've always been an advocate of putting an amperage alert on gotways at 90A and calm down on the riding if it beeps too much, which is where I came up with the sustained amperage failure. What's the point of even having this alert if the only thing that really matters is HEAT because the high sustained AMPS will cause the heat which will cause the tiltback.

When going up a steep hill that ends up being a super steep hill, a wheel will start to slow down as I approach the top of the super steep hill part due to lack of power. I assume it's due to not enough POWER or strength the hub can handle. I usually get off the wheel when it starts to really slow down, I don't wait for it to completely stop. @Marty BackeWhen you do your overheat hill tests, Do you wait for it to completely stop or tilt back. If I kept pushing it until it stopped, wouldn't this cause a SURGE that would cause some sort of failure. something like the failure you had on your MTen3 when the wheel got jammed going through the turnstile. I had this same failure on a Ninebot S1 when practicing pendulums and the wheel jammed during a fall. SURGE FAILURE

BTW, i'm totally okay with tiltback, i'd rather have that than catastrophic wheel failure.  

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, maltocs said:

I meant to say I have NO experience in electronics

Thanks for entertaining my theories.

 

Marty, you've always been an advocate of putting an amperage alert on gotways at 90A and calm down on the riding if it beeps too much, which is where I came up with the sustained amperage failure. What's the point of even having this alert if the only thing that really matters is HEAT because the high sustained AMPS will cause the heat which will cause the tiltback.

When going up a steep hill that ends up being a super steep hill, a wheel will start to slow down as I approach the top of the super steep hill part due to lack of power. I assume it's due to not enough POWER or strength the hub can handle. I usually get off the wheel when it starts to really slow down, I don't wait for it to completely stop. @Marty BackeWhen you do your overheat hill tests, Do you wait for it to completely stop or tilt back. If I kept pushing it until it stopped, wouldn't this cause a SURGE that would cause some sort of failure. something like the failure you had on your MTen3 when the wheel got jammed going through the turnstile. I had this same failure on a Ninebot S1 when practicing pendulums and the wheel jammed during a fall. SURGE FAILURE

BTW, i'm totally okay with tiltback, i'd rather have that than catastrophic wheel failure.  

I guess I'm trying to say that ultimately heat is what destroys the wheels in all conditions.

The overheat detection and resulting tilt-back is to prevent damage/stress to the control board as a whole (MOSFETs, CPU, electronics, etc.).

When very large currents are being pumped through the MOSFET's, they can heat up much faster than the system temperature (the temperature sensor for the control board is not located near the MOSFETs), and therefore self-destruct before the control board temperature has risen substantially.

If the temperature sensor on the control board was essentially on top of the MOSFET's, then yeah, I wouldn't necessarily care about the current. The temperature would tell me everything I need to know. 

This is why I monitor the current when stressing the wheels and don't particularly worry about the control board temperature. If I'm getting near continuous current alarm triggers I know that the MOSFET temperature is going to be rising much more rapidly then the control board temperature, and therefore I better stop.

Have I explained myself maybe a little better   

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

When going up a steep hill that ends up being a super steep hill, a wheel will start to slow down as I approach the top of the super steep hill part due to lack of power.

Not directly. The only thing the wheel uses the power for is to keep itself upright. Nothing else the wheel can do. If the wheel lacks power in any situation, it will fail to keep itself upright and will fall forward. This unavoidably causes the rider to either jump off and run, or faceplant.

If the wheel would actually suddenly slow down, it wouldn’t slow down the rider. (Ouch.)

 

Quote

If I kept pushing it until it stopped, wouldn't this cause a SURGE that would cause some sort of failure.

If you are talking about pushing through the tilt-back, the most likely recipient of the damage is the rider.

When a tire gets jammed, the electrical current rises immediately, in which case the Mosfets are usually the first to go (or fuses in a KingSong). Modern wheels have very sturdy Mosfets though, and they can’t generally be burned by just riding, no matter how steep an incline one is trying to ride. A stuck tire is a different animal though.

 

Quote

BTW, i'm totally okay with tiltback, i'd rather have that than catastrophic wheel failure.  

Unfortunately tilt-back can rarely save from any kind of wheel failure, other than a high overall remperature. If the wheel is at the verge of a meltdown, accelerating even more for a tilt-back can’t really work. What tilt-back can do is protect the rider if the circumstances are such that there is time for a tilt-back to work.

For example, if steadily accelerating at too fast speeds, tilt-back can slow you down. Or if the overall temperature is slowly rising too high, or battery is getting low, til-back can stop you from riding any longer.

Edited August 17, 2019 by mrelwood

[maltocs]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:27 AM, Marty Backe said:

Have I explained myself maybe a little better   

 

19 hours ago, mrelwood said:

When a tire gets jammed, the electrical current rises immediately, in which case the Mosfets are usually the first to go (or fuses in a KingSong). Modern wheels have very sturdy Mosfets though, and they can’t generally be burned by just riding, no matter how steep an incline one is trying to ride. A stuck tire is a different animal though.

Thanks for the responses, these thoughts of wheel failure always come up every time I get a new gotway and I"m running new tests. 

[maltocs]

I got my 100V 10A Gotway Charger from Green Fashion FINALLY. It doesn't seem to work. Will @who_the or anyone else confirm I'm not doing something wrong or there is an easy fix. Although GF has been pretty responsive to my messages, I get the feeling there will be a translation issue when trying to diagnose a problem especially over DMs.

My Nikola + is at about 50%-60% battery, the LED reads 92.1 or so, the charger's LED shows 90.9, it is usually within about 1.5V from the Wheel LED. However, the charger LED is always green and the switch doesn't seem to do anything.

I DO realize there is a giant purple 84V sticker in the of the fan opening, but  the side of the charger and the box the charger came in show 100V / 10A and there is obviously a 5 pin connector that fits the 100V.

Thanks.

 

[maltocs]

btw, the original charger shows  100.8V  3A on the sticker, but my KILL-A-WATT meter shows it is pulling 4A. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by maltocs

[Marty Backe]

42 minutes ago, maltocs said:

I got my 100V 10A Gotway Charger from Green Fashion FINALLY. It doesn't seem to work. Will @who_the or anyone else confirm I'm not doing something wrong or there is an easy fix. Although GF has been pretty responsive to my messages, I get the feeling there will be a translation issue when trying to diagnose a problem especially over DMs.

My Nikola + is at about 50%-60% battery, the LED reads 92.1 or so, the charger's LED shows 90.9, it is usually within about 1.5V from the Wheel LED. However, the charger LED is always green and the switch doesn't seem to do anything.

I DO realize there is a giant purple 84V sticker in the of the fan opening, but  the side of the charger and the box the charger came in show 100V / 10A and there is obviously a 5 pin connector that fits the 100V.

Thanks.

 

If it were my charger I would measure the output voltage of the charger and go from there - opening the charger and continuing the troubleshooting. I'm an electronics engineer by education so I understand my advice isn't of much practical help to you. It's very difficult to layout a step-by-step troubleshooting plan for the layperson.

I would expect the output voltage to read ~100-volts under no load (disconnected) or when the wheel is fully charged. When initially connected, if your wheel is at ~50-percent charge then the output voltage would be ~90-volts. Kind of looks that way from the picture.

So I would venture that the charger is working but the switch does nothing and the LED does nothing.

[maltocs]

57 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

If it were my charger I would measure the output voltage of the charger and go from there - opening the charger and continuing the troubleshooting. I'm an electronics engineer by education so I understand my advice isn't of much practical help to you. It's very difficult to layout a step-by-step troubleshooting plan for the layperson.

I would expect the output voltage to read ~100-volts under no load (disconnected) or when the wheel is fully charged. When initially connected, if your wheel is at ~50-percent charge then the output voltage would be ~90-volts. Kind of looks that way from the picture.

So I would venture that the charger is working but the switch does nothing and the LED does nothing.

I'm not very good with electronics, but i'm great with following instructions. I tested the switch and it works. I just tested continuity with the multi meter on the two contacts. You are correct about the no-load output voltage, right around 100V. What would you test next?

[houseofjob]

9 minutes ago, maltocs said:

I'm not very good with electronics, but i'm great with following instructions. I tested the switch and it works. I just tested continuity with the multi meter on the two contacts. You are correct about the no-load output voltage, right around 100V. What would you test next?

Perhaps the cutoff/full threshold is set wrong, as @Rotciv has instructed me in the below post:

 

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, maltocs said:

...

I DO realize there is a giant purple 84V sticker in the of the fan opening, but  the side of the charger and the box the charger came in show 100V / 10A and there is obviously a 5 pin connector that fits the 100V.

 

11 minutes ago, maltocs said:

I'm not very good with electronics, but i'm great with following instructions. I tested the switch and it works. I just tested continuity with the multi meter on the two contacts. You are correct about the no-load output voltage, right around 100V. What would you test next?

That's a good sign! At least at no load he's performing.

Can the nikola be charged while turned on and the app connected?

If so watch the voltage reading while connecting the charger.

Could be that there is no connection from the charge plug to the battery?

Ups - just saw that you wrote before:

2 hours ago, maltocs said:

My Nikola + is at about 50%-60% battery, the LED reads 92.1 or so, the charger's LED shows 90.9, it is usually within about 1.5V from the Wheel LED. However, the charger LED is always green and the switch doesn't seem to do anything.

The difference between wheel display and charger display could be just measuring inaccuracy.

Maybe it just has a green led to show operation?!

What should the switch be doing?

Beside the led your description is a normal working charger.

Does it charge?

Does the voltage reading in the app increase (slowly) while charging?

Edited August 21, 2019 by Chriull

[maltocs]

5 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Perhaps the cutoff/full threshold is set wrong, as @Rotciv has instructed me in the below post:

My gut tells me this is probably the case. But there is where I would be on unfamiliar grounds to properly adjust it.  I feel like if i messed up this setting, I would overcharge or cause a fire. If i have to do this, I will probably take the painful route of trying to communicate with Chen.

 

5 minutes ago, Chriull said:

 

That's a good sign! At least at no load he's performing.

Can the nikola be charged while turned on and the app connected?

If so watch the voltage reading while connecting the charger.

Could be that there is no connection from the charge plug to the battery?

Ups - just saw that you wrote before:

The difference between wheel display and charger display could be just measuring inaccuracy.

Maybe it just has a green led to show operation?!

What should the switch be doing?

Beside the led your description is a normal working charger.

Does it charge?

Does the voltage reading in the app increase (slowly) while charging?

The nikola charges fine with the 3A charger. The 10A charger's LED is always within about 1.5V from the LED on the wheel so I assume it is reading correctly and the charger to wheel connection is fine. The voltage reading on the wheel's LED rises slowly while being charged with the 3A charger, i haven't checked with the gotway app but it only goes up in 10% increments so it won't help much. I assume the wheellog app would show it going up slowly before the wheel auto shuts off, which it does,  after a period of inactivity if not upright. 

[Chriull]

8 minutes ago, maltocs said:

The nikola charges fine with the 3A charger. The 10A charger's LED is always within about 1.5V from the LED on the wheel so I assume it is reading correctly and the charger to wheel connection is fine. The voltage reading on the wheel's LED rises slowly while being charged with the 3A charger,

and it does not with the 10A charger?

So it's not working...

[Marty Backe]

55 minutes ago, maltocs said:

I'm not very good with electronics, but i'm great with following instructions. I tested the switch and it works. I just tested continuity with the multi meter on the two contacts. You are correct about the no-load output voltage, right around 100V. What would you test next?

But you showed a picture with the charger plugged into your wheel and it was reading ~90-volts. That tells me that it's charging your wheel. How are you determining that it's not charging your wheel?

[maltocs]

42 minutes ago, Chriull said:

and it does not with the 10A charger?

So it's not working...

yes definitely not working with the 10A charger, the fan does not come on and the amp meter at the wall outlet doesn't show any change from when nothing is plugged in.

[who_the]

1 minute ago, maltocs said:

yes definitely not working with the 10A charger, the fan does not come on and the amp meter at the wall outlet doesn't show any change from when nothing is plugged in.

Rats, sorry to hear. My 10A charger turns red and fan fires up when it's charging. Sorry man.

[maltocs]

22 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

But you showed a picture with the charger plugged into your wheel and it was reading ~90-volts. That tells me that it's charging your wheel. How are you determining that it's not charging your wheel?

i always test the chargers using the consumer product KILL A WATT, which tells me how much amperage is running from the wall to the charger. They are all about correct. The amps always show about .25 to .5 higher than the rating of the charger. This 10A charger is kinda high when nothing is plugged into it. It is between .15 and .5. It does NOT change when i flip the switch. The 3A original charger shows 4A. 

[Marty Backe]

23 minutes ago, maltocs said:

i always test the chargers using the consumer product KILL A WATT, which tells me how much amperage is running from the wall to the charger. They are all about correct. The amps always show about .25 to .5 higher than the rating of the charger. This 10A charger is kinda high when nothing is plugged into it. It is between .15 and .5. It does NOT change when i flip the switch. The 3A original charger shows 4A. 

That's strange. When the charger isn't attached to anything the amperage reading should be zero, not "kinda high".

Sorry, providing further troubleshooting suggestions without having the charger in front of me is beyond my communications skills 

Good to know whomever makes these chargers also doesn't believe in testing before shipping, just like Gotway