Gotway MCM5 review / wheelog 🔥

[chrisjunlee]

About myself: I have less than 3 weeks experience with EUC's. First wheel was the Gotway mten3, and I've put ~200 miles on it. My mten3 wheel log.

Body weight: 140 lbs, 5'4. This is relevant 

My unique perspective: A lightweight coming from a 10" wheel as the norm.

This thread will be more of a day to day impressions.

Edited July 12, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[LucasD]

I wonder how you will find comparison. Mten3 is quite capable in off-road (without big roots and stones) though one have to be careful. It is easy to get distracted and you run/ fly

[chrisjunlee]

== Day 1 - Thur, 7/11/2019 ==

[ Initial Impression ]

Received it late evening, and out the box: O-M-G THIS WHEEL IS HUGE !

Spent a nervous minute just jaw gapingly staring at it wondering if I've made a mistake.

Was expecting it to be a tad bigger than the mten3 - a *tad* bigger. Not 3x hulk smash bigger.

This does not look nor feel like a toy.

[ 1st hour - slow speed ]

I'm glad this has a trolley. At my height, I only need to expand the first trolley joint! Super convenient.

I walk it down to my work's garage, and spend the next hour just slow speed maneuvering. Some thoughts:

• Pedal modes are much softer than the mten3's. MCM5 sport mode ~ mten3 soft mode. I like the mten3 sport mode.
• Pedals are angled - I don't like the angled pedals at all. Being flatfooted, it puts additional inward pressure to my knees. I'm going to need to pick up arch supports.
• The ankle stickers are trollishly effective at delivering pain to your ankles. 
• Feels like a sluggish soviet tank compared to the mten3. The acceleration and braking is incredibly slow. 
  • To be fair: I don't have the optimal large wheel technique down yet.
• On a whim I tried hip twisting with maximum angular momentum leverage (T-pose), and it was so effective I lost control and had to step off! Why it was so jarring: The MCM5 feels like a 1,000 lb elephant - but, it only takes a bird's effort to break traction. In other words, it feels solid, but your tiny contact patch is the weakest link.

[ 2nd-4th hour - cruising speed ]

I nervously ride it up to Greenlake park, and run 5 brisk laps.

• Compared to the mten3, initial acceleration is slow. I've heard the MCM5 has more torque than the mten3 - I heartily disagree at this point. I can 0-10mph much faster on the mten3 than the MCM5. 
• The MCM5 has more horsepower. It smoothly takes you from 10-25+ mph.
• Hills are a foreign concept - the motor output seems unphased? 
• Surprising amount of voltage sag: just cruising at 15mph drops the battery from 93% to 77%. Much more than the mten3.
  • why? The 1500W motor draws more current than the 800W mten3 motor.
  • side note: this causes a lot of beeping from the Wheelog app (beeps crossing every 10% battery threshold). Does anyone know how to turn the wheelog 10% interval beeps off?
• Braking distance feels 3x longer than the mten3. Feels like I'm braking a fully loaded box truck, compared to the 600cc sportbike braking performance of the mten3.
• The 14" wheel feels incredible, I'm smoothly rolling over cracks and things I would harshly feel on the mten3. The wheel feels cushy, as if the axle is sitting on a spring. I was expecting a harsher ride due to the narrower tire, so I'm shocked. @houseofjob any thoughts why bigger, but narrower wheel = cushion?
• cruising effort: MCM5 cruising @20mph ~ mten3 cruising @12mph 
• slow speed effort: MCM5 @8mph ~ mten3 @4mph 

[ Day 1 summary ]

Total time: 4 hours

Miles:  17 miles.

Since I mostly do sidewalks and want to keep it under 15mph, I much prefer the mten3. Why?

• Hard must: nimbleness. It's much easier to avoid sidewalk type obstacles (chairs, poles, etc). I can easily u-turn in the space of a sheet of paper.
• Hard must: superior braking performance: really important for sudden pedestrian/dog/children movements
• It takes much less effort to go at a walking pace of 4mph. I don't like forcing pedestrians out of the way - I need a wheel that can comfortably trail behind walking speed crowds.

On the other hand, the MCM5 is superior for street and bike lanes. 

Again, this is just my day 1 thoughts.

Edited July 12, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[kasenutty]

Wait till you try a 16... and then an 18  

[chrisjunlee]

1 minute ago, kasenutty said:

Wait till you try a 16... and then an 18  

I tried the Kingsong 18XL for 20 minutes, and couldn't even get it going! I wasn't expecting the 14" MCM5 to be similar 😖.

[kasenutty]

That's funny, I started on a 14c and went to a 16s and now am on the 18xl, and it's very fast. I think you'll love that MCM5, the beefier more powerful wheels install a confidence that's very nice, it may be harder to get going, but it's easy to stay going fast.  

[meepmeepmayer]

Haha, your description would be exactly the same if you started with the MCM5 and went to a bigger wheel. Funny how the MCM5 is the big huge wheel for you

As for braking: it simply needs more input. You can sort of push the wheel in front of you by putting sudden pressure on your toes and then you can lean back heavily to brake. Imagine playing soccer on the wheel and kicking it forward to hit the ball.

[chrisjunlee]

5 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Haha, your description would be exactly the same if you started with the MCM5 and went to a bigger wheel. Funny how the MCM5 is the big huge wheel for you

As for braking: it simply needs more input. You can sort of push the wheel in front of you by putting sudden pressure on your toes and then you can lean back heavily to brake. Imagine playing soccer on the wheel and kicking it forward to hit the ball.

Level 1: counter-steering

Level 2: counter-braking

That's an amazing insight, thank you!

I wonder how much of my impressions will change after a week.

Is a 16" wheel that much more sluggish than the 14"?

 

[LucasD]

MCM5 per most is the only one that can compete with mten3 (torque is higher, but it needs more input to push as it has longer lever  ).

I guess the next is Nikola for you

P.S> Mten3 in default tyre is quite resistant to T-twist, the type 2 tyre is much happier to do it...

Edited July 12, 2019 by LucasD

[houseofjob]

LOL, you're way too new I think, and day 1 is a terrible day to definitively judge a different wheel, especially when you haven't ridden other wheels extensively.

45 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

• Pedal modes are much softer than the mten3's. MCM5 sport mode ~ mten3 soft mode. I like the mten3 sport mode.

Interesting. I didn't know how to ride Gotway sports mode back when I had an MTen3 (rode everything hard), so curious to feel the modes of the MTen3 when I have a chance on a fellow riders'.

But I Have ridden hard on both, and sorry, have to disagree, MCM5 hard mode is one of the hardest hard modes I've felt, too painful IMHO.

45 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

• Pedals are angled - I don't like the angled pedals at all. Being flatfooted, it puts additional inward pressure to my knees. I'm going to need to pick up arch supports.
• The ankle stickers are trollishly effective at delivering pain to your ankles. 

This all screams to me that you ride with your feet too against the shell. On the MCM5, my legs and ankles touch absolutely nothing.

But FWIW, it took me about more than a year to start riding less against the shell, soooooo......

45 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

• Feels like a sluggish soviet tank compared to the mten3. The acceleration and braking is incredibly slow. 
• To be fair: I don't have the optimal large wheel technique down yet.

• Compared to the mten3, initial acceleration is slow. I've heard the MCM5 has more torque than the mten3 - I heartily disagree at this point. I can 0-10mph much faster on the mten3 than the MCM5. 

This is where technique comes into play I think. Heartily disagree, I can easily smoke you 0-10mph on the MCM5 vs. you on MTen3.

But this is because I use the MCM5 to it's full potential: soft mode; sideways full body weight diagonal lean, but stacked for balance; and successive left-right, knee bend trading pumps.

The key thing here is, I don't think you can fully utilize a full body weight diagonal lean on the MTen3, a. because the 800W will give out, and b. because the dimensions do not support these positions as well as a higher shelled EUC.

In general, riders do not realize how much more lean force they can exert on 1500W+ nominal motor wheels IMHO, all because they do not do a diagonal and stacked lean, where fully body weight is utilized (no force exertion), but the other leg is back to balance out the center of gravity.

This confusion is why I differentiate on the forums these days between real torque vs "no effort" torque.

45 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

• Surprising amount of voltage sag: just cruising at 15mph drops the battery from 93% to 77%. Much more than the mten3.
• why? The 1500W motor draws more current than the 800W mten3 motor.
• side note: this causes a lot of beeping from the Wheelog app (beeps crossing every 10% battery threshold). Does anyone know how to turn the wheelog 10% interval beeps off?

You Do realize, Wheellog is a 3rd party app, so if the developer, who is just like you and me, an enthusiast, didn't have enough time with the MCM5, or even have access to the MCM5 at all (as he needs to bum wheels or get wheel boards donated, etc.) then things on that app are going to be off.

Also, even on the stock Gotway app, I'm not sure if they fixed all the extreme battery % sags, etc, which was just bad calculation I think.

45 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

• Braking distance feels 3x longer than the mten3. Feels like I'm braking a fully loaded box truck, compared to the 600cc sportbike braking performance of the mten3.

Same deal, what @meepmeepmayer said.

The Mten3 experience has conditioned you to not learn how much more lean force you can exert on the more powerful 1500W+ wheels. 

45 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

• The 14" wheel feels incredible, I'm smoothly rolling over cracks and things I would harshly feel on the mten3. The wheel feels cushy, as if the axle is sitting on a spring. I was expecting a harsher ride due to the narrower tire, so I'm shocked. @houseofjob any thoughts why bigger, but narrower wheel = cushion?

You might be on a low PSI, which dramatically changes the ride (PSI is personal according to your payload; the tire condition/materials/dimensions in general are a way bigger factor to the ride than people usually think IMHO).

I ride all my wheels with PSI's firm, with a hint of bounce, usually near the max rating (numbers are dependent on the wheel setup), all because:

• I don't want the artificial left-right pull of an under-inflated tire.
• I cut hard on my turns, and an underinflated tire will not be responsive.
• I don't want the stress of rolling resistance, which not only decreases range, but creates more unnecessary power demands on the wheel, creating unnecessary heat build-up, which is always bad for the EUC, basically just like a computer.

And I would much rather have a tire that had more rubber composition and be bouncy naturally when pumped at max, than compensate and get all of the above on an underinflated tire.

Also, perhaps they changed the stock tire maybe(?) The original one was a parallel line -treaded CST tire.

45 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Since I mostly do sidewalks and want to keep it under 15mph, I much prefer the mten3. Why?

• Must: nimbler, much easier to avoid sidewalk type obstacles (chairs, poles, etc)

This might have to be termed "no-effort" nimbleness, because with my technique (wide feet; heel-toe angling on the pedals; perpendicular mixed foot positions; pendulum mixed plane pivots), I can be nimble even on a Monster on the sidewalk (which I do regularly for some stretches where I'm avoiding sitting at a light).

 

45 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

• It takes much less effort to go at a walking pace of 4mph. 

This I agree with for sure, but that's largely because the Mten3 tire is so wide at 3", especially in respect to the small 10" diameter.

That's why I say the MTen3 (minus the ok-but-not-so-high shell height) is one of the more easier wheels to learn IMHO, largely to do with that width.

19 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Is a 16" wheel that much more sluggish than the 14"?

Right now, every other non-Mten3 wheel you ride is gonna have elements of re-learning how to ride I think 

That was the point where I went wheel crazy (month 2) and started stocking up on different shapes, sizes, power wheels, so I could have all those feels in my muscle memory.

 

@chrisjunlee in the end, I say give the MCM5 a good 2-300 miles, riding only It, everywhere, everyday.

I know guys who professed their love of the Tesla, only to now hate their Tesla, feeling it to be too sketchy, having re-adjusted to riding at speed on bigger and wider 18" wheels.

Edited July 12, 2019 by houseofjob

[kasenutty]

16 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Level 1: counter-steering

Level 2: counter-braking

That's an amazing insight, thank you!

I wonder how much of my impressions will change after a week.

Is a 16" wheel that much more sluggish than the 14"?

 

 

I don't think it's much more sluggish, but it sounds like you would  

[chrisjunlee]

1 minute ago, LucasD said:

MCM5 per most is the only one that can compete with mten3 (torque is higher, but it needs more input to push as it has longer lever  ).

I guess the next is Nikola for you

Put my $500 deposit for the Kingsong 16X .

Since orders are expected to ship mid August, worst case, that's a 16X in September.

 

I didn't want to let our short Seattle summer slip by without a decent touring wheel, hence I picked up the MCM5 as a stepping stone.

 

Pic: I guess summer starts in 2 weeks XD

  

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Put my $500 deposit for the Kingsong 16X .

Since orders are expected to ship mid August, worst case, that's a 16X in September.

LOL, if you think the MCM5 on hard mode is sluggish, than the 16X will be damn near trying to push a sleeping elephant! 

[LucasD]

@houseofjob DO you have any video showing your soft pedal technique?

[houseofjob]

11 minutes ago, LucasD said:

@houseofjob DO you have any video showing your soft pedal technique?

argh, I don't wanna keep promising this video until it's actually out, so maybe I'll just try to film some preliminary stuff of me riding and talking over it so I have something out there. (I've got a big 16X review edit on my hands currently, bogged down with too many thoughts for it, etc.)

I know a fellow rider friend @chulander has some stuff he shot of me just for himself, trying to visualize my pointers, and can attest to what I'm talking about (though I'm not sure how often he's on here).

Edited July 12, 2019 by houseofjob

[Mahyar Farsad]

@houseofjob i'm wondering if it's possible to change the mcm5 tire for a wider one ? ( I'm asking you since you know everything about euc 😁) 

[houseofjob]

1 minute ago, Mahyar Farsad said:

@houseofjob i'm wondering if it's possible to change the mcm5 tire for a wider one ? ( I'm asking you since you know everything about euc 😁) 

 LOL, thanks, but I only know what I know, mostly after reading this forum too much!

AFAIK, there is not enough tire shell clearance to go up the next width of 14" x 2.5", without having to modify the shell (shave, etc.). If it was possible, I would have never sold my MCM5! 

[Mahyar Farsad]

12 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

 LOL, thanks, but I only know what I know, mostly after reading this forum too much!

AFAIK, there is not enough tire shell clearance to go up the next width of 14" x 2.5", without having to modify the shell (shave, etc.). If it was possible, I would have never sold my MCM5! 

That's a bummer 😭 , anyway thank you for your quick and experienced 😉 response 

[Rywokast]

your descriptions made me laugh xD  youre the first person ive heard of starting off on an mten3.. you have a wildly different perspective than 99% of other riders where we would consider the mcm5 a small, extremely nimble and peppy wheel.. i guess thats one of the main benefits of starting off on a bigger wheel as you learn on something larger and more cumbersome, going to something smaller feels like a breeze and so easy to control.. although i suspect going from the mten to anything else, or going from anything else to the mten is quite a big change for anyone

[houseofjob]

5 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

i guess thats one of the main benefits of starting off on a bigger wheel as you learn on something larger and more cumbersome, going to something smaller feels like a breeze and so easy to control.. 

This!

The wheels I learned the most from were the biggest, oddest dimension ones: Monster, MSX, Z10. 

On smaller, more diminutive wheels, it's way easier to get away with less body technique, as you can operate knees below, vs the bigger wheels that make you use your whole body, including the torso/hips.

But going the other way, big to smaller wheels, you can use that technique to be even more versatile and maneuverable on the smaller wheels.

Edited July 12, 2019 by houseofjob

[Rywokast]

Just now, houseofjob said:

This!

The wheels I learned the most from were the biggest, oddest dimension ones: Monster, MSX, Z10. 

haha nice, youve conquered pretty much the three most awkward EUCs there are. in addition to just the fact of being able to handle a large wheel both in relative awkwardness and mentality, you would also have built up the proper muscles and stamina so going to a smaller wheel feels like you can literally toss it around like nothing xD

[chrisjunlee]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Interesting. I didn't know how to ride Gotway sports mode back when I had an MTen3 (rode everything hard), so curious to feel the modes of the MTen3 when I have a chance on a fellow riders'.

Sport = hard; Leisure = soft

Why do you like soft? It just adds a mushy delay for me. I tried riding around on soft, and felt like I had much less control due to the lag.

The mten3 hard mode is instant feedback, like 1/10 second lag - it's barely perceptible. MCM5 hard mode feels like there's a 1/3 second lag, it's definitely perceptible.

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

This all screams to me that you ride with your feet too against the shell. On the MCM5, my legs and ankles touch absolutely nothing.

I ride without touching the side. I just happen to try the narrower stance, and it's just painful. 

The angled pedals are hard on the knees, regardless of your stance, especially if you're flatfooted (collapsed arches) like me. This is why:

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

This is where technique comes into play I think. Heartily disagree, I can easily smoke you 0-10mph on the MCM5 vs. you on MTen3.

Oh? Let's race for pink slips then 아저시ㅋㅋㅋ 

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

But this is because I use the MCM5 to it's full potential: soft mode; sideways full body weight diagonal lean, but stacked for balance; and successive left-right, knee bend trading pumps.

The key thing here is, I don't think you can fully utilize a full body weight diagonal lean on the MTen3, a. because the 800W will give out, and b. because the dimensions do not support these positions as well as a higher shelled EUC.

In general, riders do not realize how much more lean force they can exert on 1500W+ nominal motor wheels IMHO, all because they do not do a diagonal and stacked lean, where fully body weight is utilized (no force exertion), but the other leg is back to balance out the center of gravity.

Employ whatever elliptical rowing, diablo summoning ritual or whatever, but by the time the MCM5 motor kicks, I would've already reached 10mph.

Unless, response time is a function of angular deviation. Then, yeah, you'll beat me. 

[chrisjunlee]

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

You Do realize, Wheellog is a 3rd party app, so if the developer, who is just like you and me, an enthusiast, didn't have enough time with the MCM5, or even have access to the MCM5 at all (as he needs to bum wheels or get wheel boards donated, etc.) then things on that app are going to be off.

Also, even on the stock Gotway app, I'm not sure if they fixed all the extreme battery % sags, etc, which was just bad calculation I think.

Yup, I'm a SWE

Pretty sure the voltage sag is accurate. The MCM5 has only 50% more capacity at the same voltage (aka 50% more 'batteries' in parallel), with a motor that draws twice as much as the mten3 (assumption that wattage directly correlates to amperage). Would love to look at the wheellog logs if I can find them.

 

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

That was the point where I went wheel crazy (month 2) and started stocking up on different shapes, sizes, power wheels, so I could have all those feels in my muscle memory.

I'm trying to pick your brain so I can minimize any intermediate wheels. The z10 is tempting me so hard, mainly because it's one of your two mains.

2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

LOL, if you think the MCM5 on hard mode is sluggish, than the 16X will be damn near trying to push a sleeping elephant! 

There is absolutely no way a wheel can get any sluggish than this, no way, no way at all. That's just insanity 

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

argh, I don't wanna keep promising this video until it's actually out, so maybe I'll just try to film some preliminary stuff of me riding and talking over it so I have something out there. (I've got a big 16X review edit on my hands currently, bogged down with too many thoughts for it, etc.)

It's amazing how daily vloggers can churn out stuff every day. It takes me half a day just to just ingress and rough cut. What's your equipment setup?

Edited July 12, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[houseofjob]

54 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Sport = hard; Leisure = soft

Why do you like soft? It just adds a mushy delay for me. I tried riding around on soft, and felt like I had much less control due to the lag.

Er, don't pay attention to those garbage mode names, which are misleading.

Why I love Gotway soft mode?

1. Much more control, as you can play with the delay and swing; it's like a controller with more resolution. If you have hard response all the time, especially on the thinner tired wheels that flop over faster, this is partly why people say it's hard to control on sidewalks going slow. 
2. Going with the above, pendulums are much more useful because of this delay, as I use micro-pendulums all the time to anticipate oncoming vehicles, pedestrians, etc., instead of just braking and/or dismounting; I can stay riding on the wheel.
3. Less fatiguing. Dunno if you've been on longer rides, but having to constantly press on a brick wall is much more fatiguing than having to constantly press on a soft pillow. In the end, you can get the same performance on soft mode as you do hard, just by leaning harder, which is still way less physical exertion than hard mode.
4. The swing action lets you put your whole body into a diagonal lean. Hard mode is much less. Anyone who's rode seated knows that there is, like I said above, much more force input you can place on a 1500W+ wheel; just regular standing upright leaning is not efficient in applying this force, as our bodies sits over our heels, whereas the force needs to be applied to our toes. Leaning the wheel body diagonal in a carving-like motion allows us to reach closer to that efficiency.

I can understand you not liking soft mode, as I was the same in the beginning. It was wheel swapping on a ride with @Tishawn Fahie's MSV3s+ (a wheel that is all soft modes basically) that opened my eyes.

Not that you have to adopt soft mode, but it certainly helps unlock the MCM5 torque, if you know how to use it.

54 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I ride without touching the side. I just happen to try the narrower stance, and it's just painful. 

The angled pedals are hard on the knees, regardless of your stance, especially if you're flatfooted (collapsed arches) like me.

I'm flat-footed as well, and angled pedals never bothered me.

But I don't let the angling also angle my feet in the same way. If I have to, as I do with the extreme MSX pedal angle, I'll stand on the outer side pedal edges, so my feet basically are off the pedal flats, but not that you have to (also, FWIW, ppl don't consider the MCM5 to be too much of an angle, so definitely stay away from the MSX then).

However, what I do like about more pedal angling, is that when I lean into the wheel, wheel body at an angle, that outer turn leg pivots in a way that it is momentarily flush with the pedal flats, providing a very supportive feeling when sharp carving.

54 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Oh? Let's race for pink slips then 아저시ㅋㅋㅋ 

Employ whatever elliptical rowing, diablo summoning ritual or whatever, but by the time the MCM5 motor kicks, I would've already reached 10mph.

Unless, response time is a function of angular deviation. Then, yeah, you'll beat me. 

Er, that's a little deep even for me 

Believe what you want, but I still stand by what I say, 3년 차 싸온 노하우 가지고 이길수밖에없네요 ^^

41 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Yup, I'm a SWE

Pretty sure the voltage sag is accurate. The MCM5 has only 50% more capacity at the same voltage (aka 50% more 'batteries' in parallel), with a motor that draws twice as much as the mten3 (assumption that wattage directly correlates to amperage). Would love to look at the wheellog logs if I can find them.

Hmmm... a bit over my head there, maybe you need to link up with @palachzzz or something.

41 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I'm trying to pick your brain so I can minimize any intermediate wheels. The z10 is tempting me so hard, mainly because it's one of your two mains.

There is absolutely no way a wheel can get any sluggish than this, no way, no way at all. That's just insanity 

Given your wheel bias towards the diminutive MTen3, I'm afraid there will be no other wheel for you , certainly not the very polarizing Z10, which I myself will admit is not the wheel for everyone.

Also, FWIW, the 16X you have your eye on, requires quite a bit of force to really get going, even for me; a considerable gap from the very torque-y MCM5 (my opinion along with the consensus opinion on these forums), so there's that.

41 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

It's amazing how daily vloggers can churn out stuff every day. It takes me half a day just to just ingress and rough cut.

Yes, much respect to those guys, as I often get stuck in my perfectionist disease. But also, many of them, especially the career YouTubers, have editing teams/interns, which would obviously make it so much easier.

Edited July 13, 2019 by houseofjob

[chrisjunlee]

29 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Given your wheel bias towards the diminutive MTen3, I'm afraid there will be no other wheel for you - except for the Z10. Pick it up, you'll 100% love it.

kk, this z10 is the best configuration, right?