US-China Trade War

[ir_fuel]

1 hour ago, Kens said:

Here for more light reading: https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2019/08/23/trade-war-tariffs-chinese-made-products-could-soon-cost-more/2091709001/

 

There are some "funny" things in there.

Examples:

Quote

Beverages: Tea, coffee, Irish and Scotch whiskies, liqueurs and cordials, wine, brandy, vodka and tequila.

Quote

Meats and dairy: Bovine, lamb, sheep, ham, geese, quail, sausage, milk, cream, yogurt, sour cream, butter and cheeses.

Quote

Produce: Tomatoes, lettuce, pumpkins, plantains, avocados, grapefruit, watermelons, cantaloupes and papayas.

Quote

Live animals: Cattle, sheep, goats, chickens, turkeys, camels, rabbits, horses, whales, dolphins, foxes and reptiles.

 

Are they actually importing the above products from China????

 

[Harvey Pooka]

8 hours ago, Kens said:

 

Miscellaneous: Fireworks, curtains, photo albums, children's picture, drawing or coloring books, printed cards, household- or laundry-type washing machines, ceiling fans, electric blankets, bedspreads, toys for pets, camping goods, umbrellas, music boxes, string musical instruments, cigarette lighters, scales, sleeping bags, toys, magic tricks, confetti, roller skates and fishing rods.

Thanks Ken. Appreciate the info.

I like how "confetti" is a listed item. That's a product I'd like to see made in the USA. I hate the inferior chinese quality confetti.

 

[Patton250]

I would love to see the United States dump China 100%.  Enough is enough.  The amount of intellectual property they have stolen from the United States is enough to justify discontinuing trading with them. 

So Harvey you like the “confetti” typo eh?

The world media is quite relentless when a Republican politician makes a gaffe. 

[Kens]

6 hours ago, ir_fuel said:

Are they actually importing the above products from China????

 

Oh I don't know maybe just in case? But I know now we importing 0101.30.00 live asses from China so... Get your live asses now before October 1st 

 

[ir_fuel]

2 hours ago, Patton250 said:

I would love to see the United States dump China 100%.  Enough is enough.  ffe. 

Good luck with that. Even a lot of "built in the USA" stuff contains Chinese components. The world no longer works like this. Everything is linked to everything. Getting all production back to the US will cost a lot of time and especially heaps of money. It's just an impossible task.

You should throw up an economic block/tariffs for all stuff that you still produce locally but gets imported cheaper from China. Stuff that's not even produced in the US anymore? Sorry that ship has sailed and will only punish consumers.

Edited August 25, 2019 by ir_fuel

[Patton250]

9 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Good luck with that. Even a lot of "built in the USA" stuff contains Chinese components. The world no longer works like this. Everything is linked to everything. Getting all production back to the US will cost a lot of time and especially heaps of money. It's just an impossible task.

You should throw up an economic block/tariffs for all stuff that you still produce locally but gets imported cheaper from China. Stuff that's not even produced in the US anymore? Sorry that ship has sailed and will only punish consumers.

 I agree with you but it doesn’t mean that we should have an unfair deal with China by continuing to let them screw us over.  The whole world has been getting one over on the United States for the last 60 years. It’s time for that to stop. 

[ir_fuel]

6 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

 I agree with you but it doesn’t mean that we should have an unfair deal with China by continuing to let them screw us over.  The whole world has been getting one over on the United States for the last 60 years. It’s time for that to stop. 

Yeah ok, but you know where this is going? Both sides will simply keep on increasing tariffs until one country's economy really starts to suffer. It's just a battle of "who has the biggest". And while governments play tough guy, companies and individuals suffer. I honestly don't know how this is going to end, but knowing Trump's ego, and the Chinese feeling of superiority wrt the rest of the Western world, neither of the parties will easily give up the bidding game. So what's next? 80% tariffs on Chinese products? 80% tariffs on US products? It's just never going to stop IMO.

I really wonder what a company such as Apple is going to do if their phones end up costing $2500 because of added tariffs. Will people start buying "made in USA" phones? Ah no, that doesn't exist.

 

TBH I don't know what the solution is, but what's happening now certainly isn't. History has already proven it.

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by ir_fuel

[Patton250]

2 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

Yeah ok, but you know where this is going? Both sides will simply keep on increasing tariffs until one country's economy really starts to suffer. It's just a battle of "who has the biggest". And while governments play tough guy, companies and individuals suffer. I honestly don't know how this is going to end, but knowing Trump's ego, and the Chinese feeling of superiority wrt the rest of the Western world, neither of the parties will easily give up the bidding game. So what's next? 80% tariffs on Chinese products? 80% tariffs on US products? It's just never going to stop IMO.

I really wonder what a company such as Apple is going to do if their phones end up costing $2500 because of added tariffs. Will people start buying "made in USA" phones? Ah no, that doesn't exist.

 

TBH I don't know what the solution is, but what's happening now certainly isn't this. History has already proven it.

 

 It’s finally time that some president did something about this. Doesn’t every man and woman at that level have an ego?  Heck there are people on this board that have egos.  Lol

 I’ll pay $2500 for an iPhone made in the United States. Especially if it provides some middle-class job for an American family.  My point is all of your points above still don’t change the fact that China has been screwing us over for 30 years.  What should we do about it? 

[ir_fuel]

3 hours ago, Patton250 said:

I’ll pay $2500 for an iPhone made in the United States. Especially if it provides some middle-class job for an American family.

If you buy an iPhone it already provides middle-class jobs for American families. How many American employees does Apple have ATM?

3 hours ago, Patton250 said:

My point is all of your points above still don’t change the fact that China has been screwing us over for 30 years.  

Yes but there is also a point of no return. I think it has simply gone so far that it's near to impossible to turn back the clock, if we talk about factories.

3 hours ago, Patton250 said:

What should we do about it? 

As I said: slap tariffs on the stuff that still is made in the US but can be gotten cheaper from China to avoid dumping on your local market (steel being one example, I think?). But don't hope on turning back the clock. That's simply not going to happen. If there currently is no alternative it's too late. I really have a hard time imaging that someone will start producing smartphones in the US, using only US sourced components.

 

[Patton250]

15 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

If you buy an iPhone it already provides middle-class jobs for American families. How many American employees does Apple have ATM?

Yes but there is also a point of no return. I think it has simply gone so far that it's near to impossible to turn back the clock, if we talk about factories.

As I said: slap tariffs on the stuff that still is made in the US but can be gotten cheaper from China to avoid dumping on your local market (steel being one example, I think?). But don't hope on turning back the clock. That's simply not going to happen. If there currently is no alternative it's too late. I really have a hard time imaging that someone will start producing smartphones in the US, using only US sourced components.

 

 I wouldn’t give up on having factories back in the United States. Do you have any idea how many people we have that don’t work? They aren’t even counted as unemployed when they give the unemployment information.  I really wish we would go back to making all our own stuff.  Maybe it will cause China to change and stop making people live in abject poverty.  Listen man I’m definitely no expert on this but I absolutely trust Trump a lot more than some lifetime politician.  Besides all the previous presidents have failed at it so why not give this dude a chance? 

[LanghamP]

2 hours ago, Patton250 said:

Do you have any idea how many people we have that don’t work? They aren’t even counted as unemployed when they give the unemployment information.

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

There's 329 million us citizens, of which 157 million work, including 26 million part timers.

More than half of US citizens don't work.

[Patton250]

47 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

There's 329 million us citizens, of which 157 million work, including 26 million part timers.

More than half of US citizens don't work.

Yes

[Kens]

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

https://www.usdebtclock.org/

There's 329 million us citizens, of which 157 million work, including 26 million part timers.

More than half of US citizens don't work.

Does that half includes children, elderly, people with disability, and stayed home wives? If so then it will be a big chunk of those half US citizens and I can't see how they can work. 

Edit: yep only only 7% out of those half US citizens that does not work are able to work. Does those 7% people want to work for $1.50/hr in a factory?

Edited August 26, 2019 by Kens

[Patton250]

5 hours ago, Kens said:

Does that half includes children, elderly, people with disability, and stayed home wives? If so then it will be a big chunk of those half US citizens and I can't see how they can work. 

Edit: yep only only 7% out of those half US citizens that does not work are able to work. Does those 7% people want to work for $1.50/hr in a factory?

 Source? There’s not too many sources I would even trust anyway but I’m interested to see where you got it from. 

[LanghamP]

7 hours ago, Kens said:

Does that half includes children, elderly, people with disability, and stayed home wives? If so then it will be a big chunk of those half US citizens and I can't see how they can work. 

Edit: yep only only 7% out of those half US citizens that does not work are able to work. Does those 7% people want to work for $1.50/hr in a factory?

I presented the number of employed versus not working while quoting a reliable source. 

It's up to you to provide a moral context to those numbers; it's interesting you say children, elderly, disabled, and stay at home wives are justified in not working. Who, then, should comprise the majority of workers?

Young and able-bodied people are entirely justified in not working while seeking self improvement, or working the least to just barely making ends meet. A heavily overworked demography is an unhappy demography, as people discovered during the Russian October Revolution.

What is interesting is that the young unemployed/underemployed male living with his parents playing a lot of video games actually has the highest happiness and satisfaction of all demographics.

Detached from the labor force, with neither a college degree nor a steady job, these men have little income. But the technological revolution in media and entertainment of the last few decades has made it cheaper than ever to divert oneself on a phone, computer, television, or video-game console. Leisure is cheap enough that it apparently doesn’t require a steady W-2 or 1099 to have fun.

And they are having fun, Hurst emphasized. “Happiness surveys actually indicate that they [are] quite content compared to their peers,” he told UChicago. In the short run, not working doesn’t seem to make men miserable at all.

The Atlantic seems worried about these young happy men turning into middle aged unhappy men, but men above their thirties spend more time playing that even men in their twenties.

Meanwhile, their female peers have much higher college graduation rates, much higher college debt, and are on antidepressants.

What is a good society, except to provide most of its citizens with happiness and satisfaction? A high unemployment rate for all is a good society. It seems grossly unfair to ask able bodied men to provide the majority of generated wealth. 

And make no mistake; every tool, every application, every robot or automation, is expressly created to remove or reduce a worker. There's money, and hence motivation, to replace that worker, which is why anything that can be automated will eventually be automated.

China is just a shitty society. They burn up their young men in sweatshops and factories while aborting tens of millions of baby daughters (we in the US are 600,00 equal opportunity aborters). China pollutes their environment, kills coal miners, subsidizes transportation at great cost, builds the worst housing, has a tobacco owned government monopoly, and, well, a host of other problems that stem from being a blatant capitalist oligarchy.

You want a low unemployment rate? I can give that to you, easy. 

--Work children in factories.

--Abort useless girls.

--Dont have social security.

--Outlaw unions and worker strikes.

--No environmental protection.

--The worst behaved tourists, bar none.

And so on. I'm glad to see a tarrif. Make it higher, way way higher. You don't need all that useless shit from Amazon anyway, God knows I've spent way too much on that.

 

 

 

 

[Kens]

16 hours ago, Patton250 said:

 Source? There’s not too many sources I would even trust anyway but I’m interested to see where you got it from. 

The same source that you just "Yes" 4 posts above.. I don't know how reliable https://www.usdebtclock.org/ is but it seems you agree with it without hesitation. I'm just using what you guys gives me (The percentage between "Actual Unemployed" to the "US workforce now" is roughly 7%). If you don't mind me asking, how could you know which source is to trust and which one is not? 

12 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Young and able-bodied people are entirely justified in not working while seeking self improvement, or working the least to just barely making ends meet. A heavily overworked demography is an unhappy demography, as people discovered during the Russian October Revolution.

Sure. Nothing wrong with that. If that how you see it I can agree with you 

Quote

What is a good society, except to provide most of its citizens with happiness and satisfaction? A high unemployment rate for all is a good society. It seems grossly unfair to ask able bodied men to provide the majority of generated wealth.

So a high unemployment rate for all is a good society? Why are we panicking about high unemployment rate then?

Quote

And so on. I'm glad to see a tarrif. Make it higher, way way higher. You don't need all that useless shit from Amazon anyway, God knows I've spent way too much on that.

No, I really need that Ostrich pillow from Amazon! 

But seriously, from what I know, tariff are used to dissuade import from another country (in this case is China), which could lead to bringing back jobs that "taken" by China to the US and decrease in unemployment rate. @Patton250 & @LanghamP do you guys think half of the US population are not working is good or bad? So we can move on with if this China tariff actually can bringing back jobs to the US.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Kens

[LanghamP]

1 hour ago, Kens said:

The same source that you just "Yes" 4 posts above.. I don't know how reliable https://www.usdebtclock.org/ is but it seems you agree with it without hesitation. I'm just using what you guys gives me (The percentage between "Actual Unemployed" to the "US workforce now" is roughly 7%). If you don't mind me asking, how could you know which source is to trust and which one is not? 

It's not accurate because debt clock gets its information from the department of revenue. It would underreport employed people who don't tell their earnings to the IRS. I'd guess it would be quite a lot, gauging by all those Mexican bit workers I load into the back of my friend's pickup truck from time to time, when I need a new fence or something else put up.

The definition of unemployed, as an industrial FIPS code paired with a worker, is a person who is actively looking for a job over the past 90 days, from the time he lost or quit his last job. No one uses unemployed because of that definition; economists would more properly use the term "employed" and "not employed", because there would only be two classifications.

I have no idea why unemployed is used by laymen news reporters and by government lay sources; when I used to put out employment reports and maps (as a map maker, db querier,  and SAS programmer) for every county, state, city, and television region in the USA, coded by FIPS industrial codes, we never used unemployed. Never.

Is half of the US not working a good or a bad thing? US consumption is too high, and high consumption is terribly destructive and not sustainable. Full time workers carry too much debt (something like 60% of households cannot come up with $500 in cash), while college students carry something like $48,000 in debt. The average car loan is now an astonishing $29,000. It seems that being a full time worker means banks loan you more money for that house/car/kid. I think a much more sensible, frugal, and satisfying life is to skip the college loan, get housing you can afford, and do not marry and have a kid. It's all too expensive. Much better to spend your resources on yourself, as time is the one thing you cannot renew. I can understand if you want to become the world's greatest thumb wrestler; that's much better than being a hard worker and devoting your excess production to future unsustainability.

What happens when employment rates and pay goes up? I think a perfect example is Los Angeles; a greater number of 2nd and 3rd generation residents, initially quite poor, now have cars and housing, which predictably greatly exceeds LA's capacity to handle them. Result?

Massive traffic jams, the worst in the world.

A booming economy is just as bad as a stagnant one. Unsustainable. Instead, seek to live very modestly, work minimally, enjoy your leisure time, forgo the car and regular airplane trips, don't eat meat, have few or no kids.

[mrelwood]

I’m usually satisfied by upvoting when deemed suitable, but @LanghamP hit so many nails right on the head that his post deserves three additional upvotes. Here you go sir:

    

[Patton250]

5 hours ago, LanghamP said:

It's not accurate because debt clock gets its information from the department of revenue. It would underreport employed people who don't tell their earnings to the IRS. I'd guess it would be quite a lot, gauging by all those Mexican bit workers I load into the back of my friend's pickup truck from time to time, when I need a new fence or something else put up.

The definition of unemployed, as an industrial FIPS code paired with a worker, is a person who is actively looking for a job over the past 90 days, from the time he lost or quit his last job. No one uses unemployed because of that definition; economists would more properly use the term "employed" and "not employed", because there would only be two classifications.

I have no idea why unemployed is used by laymen news reporters and by government lay sources; when I used to put out employment reports and maps (as a map maker, db querier,  and SAS programmer) for every county, state, city, and television region in the USA, coded by FIPS industrial codes, we never used unemployed. Never.

Is half of the US not working a good or a bad thing? US consumption is too high, and high consumption is terribly destructive and not sustainable. Full time workers carry too much debt (something like 60% of households cannot come up with $500 in cash), while college students carry something like $48,000 in debt. The average car loan is now an astonishing $29,000. It seems that being a full time worker means banks loan you more money for that house/car/kid. I think a much more sensible, frugal, and satisfying life is to skip the college loan, get housing you can afford, and do not marry and have a kid. It's all too expensive. Much better to spend your resources on yourself, as time is the one thing you cannot renew. I can understand if you want to become the world's greatest thumb wrestler; that's much better than being a hard worker and devoting your excess production to future unsustainability.

What happens when employment rates and pay goes up? I think a perfect example is Los Angeles; a greater number of 2nd and 3rd generation residents, initially quite poor, now have cars and housing, which predictably greatly exceeds LA's capacity to handle them. Result?

Massive traffic jams, the worst in the world.

A booming economy is just as bad as a stagnant one. Unsustainable. Instead, seek to live very modestly, work minimally, enjoy your leisure time, forgo the car and regular airplane trips, don't eat meat, have few or no kids.

You’re joking right? 

[Kens]

Half of list 4 went live September 1st! DJI made the first big move!

https://www.diyphotography.net/dji-raises-prices-in-the-us-due-to-trumps-tariffs-on-chinese-goods/

13% increase in their consumer line up and up to 17% increase in their professional drone that sold in the US in respond to 15% tariff on list 4.

If you buy from other country ,eg. Canada, it will still have the old pricing.

Prepare for more consumer products to increase in prices..

[Patton250]

2 hours ago, Kens said:

Half of list 4 went live September 1st! DJI made the first big move!

https://www.diyphotography.net/dji-raises-prices-in-the-us-due-to-trumps-tariffs-on-chinese-goods/

13% increase in their consumer line up and up to 17% increase in their professional drone that sold in the US in respond to 15% tariff on list 4.

If you buy from other country ,eg. Canada, it will still have the old pricing.

Prepare for more consumer products to increase in prices..

Pfffff

[Kens]

China Tariff Fight May Sound a Sour Note for Student Musicians

https://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/business/china-tariff-fight-may-sound-a-sour-note-for-student/article_26971f43-d676-5d19-8131-9427ad4fde1e.html

Quote

Bischofberger is mulling raising its current rental fees to offset the higher price of bows, tuners, cases and instruments it acquires via distributors from China, said manager Jacqueline Kamenzind.

“We’ll just have to see what the new price points are,” said Kamenzind. Seattle-area instrument dealerships have already seen price hikes from suppliers, including a 10% increase for bows and a 6% increase for violins, in response to the tariffs.

Families going to rent instruments this weekend likely won’t see prices up much from last year. But going forward, that’s likely to change, area dealers agree, and rental fees that now hover around $30-$60/month will rise as a result of the tariffs.

 

I don't play any music instruments so I don't care if music instruments rise 3000%. I will just "Pfffff" at it.

However, this is not only about me, it's about all of us as a nation. There are more and more people out there get affected by this unnecessary tariff and I'm afraid the effect of it will last even after the tariff is over. Like our EUC price, will they go down back to $1600 after it has been selling for $2k+ for awhile?

Yes I said it's unnecessary because I still cannot see why we need it.

Bringing back jobs to the US? As discussed above, NO. Manufacturing and mining industries will not come back. If it not China it will be goes to other country anyway.

Get a better deal with China? In which way it's bad? Did we ever get better deal before? Can we get better deal with other country? Why not do that instead of tariff?

Currency manipulation? Yuan is still in normal range. If they don't other country will notice and scream at China too.

Stealing intellectual properties? Can India guarantee it will not "copy" some of our intellectual properties if we move it there?

Lots of questions, lots of opinions, but no answer for us as a nation..

[Patton250]

23 minutes ago, Kens said:

China Tariff Fight May Sound a Sour Note for Student Musicians

https://www.valdostadailytimes.com/news/business/china-tariff-fight-may-sound-a-sour-note-for-student/article_26971f43-d676-5d19-8131-9427ad4fde1e.html

I don't play any music instruments so I don't care if music instruments rise 3000%. I will just "Pfffff" at it.

However, this is not only about me, it's about all of us as a nation. There are more and more people out there get affected by this unnecessary tariff and I'm afraid the effect of it will last even after the tariff is over. Like our EUC price, will they go down back to $1600 after it has been selling for $2k+ for awhile?

Yes I said it's unnecessary because I still cannot see why we need it.

Bringing back jobs to the US? As discussed above, NO. Manufacturing and mining industries will not come back. If it not China it will be goes to other country anyway.

Get a better deal with China? In which way it's bad? Did we ever get better deal before? Can we get better deal with other country? Why not do that instead of tariff?

Currency manipulation? Yuan is still in normal range. If they don't other country will notice and scream at China too.

Stealing intellectual properties? Can India guarantee it will not "copy" some of our intellectual properties if we move it there?

Lots of questions, lots of opinions, but no answer for us as a nation..

 

 

So you’re the guy that would take Mr. Potter’s $.50 on the dollar. 

 See if this statement suits you-

You, “ I don’t care if in the end run we do get a fairer deal and trade is better I just don’t want to overpay for anything in the short run”  

 

 

 

[Kens]

13 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

So you’re the guy that would take Mr. Potter’s $.50 on the dollar. 

 See if this statement suits you-

You, “ I don’t care if in the end run we do get a fairer deal and trade is better I just don’t want to overpay for anything in the short run” .

No it don't suits me.

I'm all for "fairer deal and trade is better" like I'm all for amazing pot luck. But if I must buy at least $500 foods for an amazing pot luck then I think it's unnecessary.

I have a lot of question marks up there but no answer.. Only opinions..

Why not start by defining "fairer deal and trade is better"?

Edited September 5, 2019 by Kens

[Patton250]

16 minutes ago, Kens said:

No it don't suits me.

I have a lot of question marks up there. Nothing is answered..

 Let me break it down for you.

 China is and has continuously for the last 40 years been screwing us over on trade. It has been remarkably unbalanced and favoring them significantly.   They have also been stealing our intellectual property. Now there are certain politicians both Democrat and Republican in our country with certain ideologies that are fine with that because they believe the United States is too powerful to begin with and they believe this country needs to be put in its place.  Trump disagrees and is finally standing up to the Chinese communist and demanding an equal playing field.  China is not used to this because they have always gotten over on every president we’ve ever had so they believe by waiting it out they could win this especially if a large enough percentage of our citizens complain about it.  Our country is not asking for an advantage over China or any other trade partners like Canada, Mexico or the European Union.  What we are asking for is equality.  That seems to be unreasonable to certain people. Well it isn’t to me. I’m willing to wait this out regardless of the consequences.  If need be we can cut off trade 100% with China if they don’t want complete equality.  If that happens I assure you they will pay a much higher price than us. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Patton250