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Kens

US-China Trade War

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Be happy that EWheels is paying half the tariff

Which still a lose lose lose situation..

eWheels and all of us will be happier without any tariff :)

I don't even know who should be winning from this trade war?? :(

Edited by Kens

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8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The United States should ultimately win with better trade policies with China. It's probably not going to end soon. Until then, we get the shaft. Even many Trump haters agree that it's time to play tough with the Chinese.

I wish I could upvote twice, makes me sad that people want the trade war to be over just because of the price of their toys from China.

Why so many people value low prices on superficial purchases over international politics is beyond me.

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48 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The United States should ultimately win with better trade policies with China. It's probably not going to end soon. Until then, we get the shaft. Even many Trump haters agree that it's time to play tough with the Chinese.

It's just too bad that politicians play tough, but the only victim of this situation is the American consumer/shop owner.

Please explain me how a 25% tariff on an euc will help trade policies and business? Will there all of the sudden be a rise of American companies building euc's for the local market, at a lower price? Will you now decide to buy an euc "made in the USA"? In the mean time US businesses like eWheels suffer from this, directly impacting American jobs (if he has less revenue, he has less cash to spend. We're not talking huge companies that would just use the extra money to buy back their own stock).

Electronics manufacturing is gone. It won't come back. That ship has sailed. And if it will come back it for sure won't be cheaper or create lots of jobs. Pretty sure that it would be impossible to build a factory in the US like they do in China, and get the same amount of people inside. They won't find that many. Foxconn has 400.000 people working in 1 factory. Can you imagine the scale?

What's also typical is that smart watches aren't on that list, nor are smartphones or tablets. Pretty sure there are a lot more smart watches and smartphones being sold than euc's (and that the total turnover will be a lot higher, despite  the price of a single unit), but Gotway and Kingsong of course don't have local lobbyists such as Apple ...

I can understand that you slap tariffs on raw materials that can either be created/found locally or in other Western countries (that have to abide to a lot more regulations wrt the environment etc), but consumer electronics? (for me an EUC is that category). That's just hurting consumers and small business owners IMO.

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14 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

It's just too bad that politicians play tough, but the only victim of this situation is the American consumer/shop owner.

Please explain me how a 25% tariff on an euc will help trade policies and business? Will there all of the sudden be a rise of American companies building euc's for the local market, at a lower price? Will you now decide to buy an euc "made in the USA"? In the mean time US businesses like eWheels suffer from this, directly impacting American jobs (if he has less revenue, he has less cash to spend. We're not talking huge companies that would just use the extra money to buy back their own stock).

Electronics manufacturing is gone. It won't come back. That ship has sailed. And if it will come back it for sure won't be cheaper or create lots of jobs. Pretty sure that it would be impossible to build a factory in the US like they do in China, and get the same amount of people inside. They won't find that many. Foxconn has 400.000 people working in 1 factory. Can you imagine the scale?

What's also typical is that smart watches aren't on that list, nor are smartphones or tablets. Pretty sure there are a lot more smart watches and smartphones being sold than euc's (and that the total turnover will be a lot higher, despite  the price of a single unit), but Gotway and Kingsong of course don't have local lobbyists such as Apple ...

I can understand that you slap tariffs on raw materials that can either be created/found locally or in other Western countries (that have to abide to a lot more regulations wrt the environment etc), but consumer electronics? (for me an EUC is that category). That's just hurting consumers and small business owners IMO.

You're looking at the micro (EUC) level. This is big picture stuff.

Electronics manufacturing jobs are on the decline and probably won't come back. But manufacturing sure can. And BTW, the United States is still the largest manufacturer in the world. But our productivity is so high that the manufacturing jobs have declined, and will continue to do so.

China is successfully because their labor is cheap. Once that's not the case, IMO, they will fade. There's plenty of other cheap labor in the world, much of it in non-communist countries.

China could disappear and we would be just fine, IMO. They need the West. We don't need them.

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1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

You're looking at the micro (EUC) level. This is big picture stuff.

Electronics manufacturing jobs are on the decline and probably won't come back. But manufacturing sure can. And BTW, the United States is still the largest manufacturer in the world. But our productivity is so high that the manufacturing jobs have declined, and will continue to do so.

China is successfully because their labor is cheap. Once that's not the case, IMO, they will fade. There's plenty of other cheap labor in the world, much of it in non-communist countries.

China could disappear and we would be just fine, IMO. They need the West. We don't need them.

It will just shift to other Asian countries. Same shit, different country. Will still not help the local economy.

So again: why slap tariffs on consumer electronics, but not on smartphones, tablets and smart watches? 

And China is not a communist country. It's a dictatorship. Communist means that everything is state owned. Pretty hard becoming a billionaire in that kind of country.

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Also:

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/10-countries-with-the-highest-industrial-outputs-in-the-world.html

 

China has the world’s largest industrial output. In 2016 it is estimated that the country produced $4.566 trillion of industrial output.

Despite being the largest economy, the United States ranked behind China and the European Union in terms of industrial output.

 

Numbers from 2016

Since 2010 China has surpassed the US.

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FYI I do agree with the fact that there is some unfair competition coming from China. It's just stupid to introduce tariffs on stuff where people simply have no choice but to buy Chinese. If you tax cars built abroad you can still choose to not buy them and buy a locally produced one. With a TV or a euc it's a bit more complicated.

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24 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

And China is not a communist country. It's a dictatorship. Communist means that everything is state owned. Pretty hard becoming a billionaire in that kind of country.

 

The path to communism resolves in authoritarianism which in turn installs dictatorships. 

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Welp my post got turned into a new thread :blink:

Let me paste reddit politic bot reminder:

 

As a reminder, this subreddit  thread is for civil discussion.

In general, be courteous to others. Attack ideas, not users. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban face plant.

 

With that out of the way, let's continue :popcorn:

My knowledge about politics is very limited so I appreciated @ir_fuel citing external source that based on facts instead of opinions.

So any rebuttal to what he said?

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And let's not forget the damage done to the farmers in the US after China also imposed tariffs on certain US-sourced products:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/5/17/18626664/farmers-trump-trade-war-china

and then the government starts handing out money to those farmers ( isn't that "socialist" and against free market principals?), at the same time helping companies from the country it is trying to punish.

https://www.vox.com/2018/10/23/18013734/trump-china-trade-war-steel-tariffs

And the American tax payer has to cough up all those billions in aide.

 

The world economy is a very complex place. You can't just go slapping tariffs on all kinds of stuff and think it only will hurt them, not you. The only ones that got a better deal out of this is US steel. All the rest is suffering (more or less). And the main victim of this all is the American consumer, and all American companies that produce overseas (unless, like Apple, they have a lot of lobbying power and get exceptions).

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

You're looking at the micro (EUC) level. This is big picture stuff.

Electronics manufacturing jobs are on the decline and probably won't come back. But manufacturing sure can. And BTW, the United States is still the largest manufacturer in the world. But our productivity is so high that the manufacturing jobs have declined, and will continue to do so.

Could you elaborate a bit on which manufacturing you're mentioning there? I know it's not electronic manufacturing so which one?

Quote

China is successfully because their labor is cheap. Once that's not the case, IMO, they will fade. There's plenty of other cheap labor in the world, much of it in non-communist countries.

So let's said that happened and we move labor to India. Is that the goal of putting tariff on China in the first place? Is that the big picture?

Edited by Kens

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44 minutes ago, Kens said:

Could you elaborate a bit on which manufacturing you're mentioning there? I know it's not electronic manufacturing so which one?

So let's said that happened and we move labor to India. Is that the goal of putting tariff on China in the first place? Is that the big picture?

I think the goal is to have fair bilateral trade with China, not to stop trading with them.

Looks like I'm a little behind the times. Apparently China slightly out produces the United States. Here's one article with information: https://www.brookings.edu/research/global-manufacturing-scorecard-how-the-us-compares-to-18-other-nations/

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2 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

You're looking at the micro (EUC) level. This is big picture stuff.

Electronics manufacturing jobs are on the decline and probably won't come back. But manufacturing sure can. And BTW, the United States is still the largest manufacturer in the world. But our productivity is so high that the manufacturing jobs have declined, and will continue to do so.

China is successfully because their labor is cheap. Once that's not the case, IMO, they will fade. There's plenty of other cheap labor in the world, much of it in non-communist countries.

China could disappear and we would be just fine, IMO. They need the West. We don't need them.

lol sorry...trump is destroying your country and the quality thing in the US is the reason why you buy cars from Germany. Don't get me wrong but the overall quality of the most USA made products suck. If trump would really wanna push your local production, he should forbid buying and import Japanese cars...nearly every single product is from China... just look in the IT industry... 

I worked a lot with American company's together, have been in the US for business visits several times and I definitely learned that most of the American employees are not from the most reliable side. I don't mean that personal please don't get me wrong. 

A bigger part of my family is living in NC (Wilmington) and we have the comparison between our country's and its a fact that only the better income households have a good life in the US. you don't even have a health insurance there which pays everything.. take the dentist for example.. there's definitely something wrong. And that is not  only the Chinese fault. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lukas83 said:

lol sorry...trump is destroying your country and the quality thing in the US is the reason why you buy cars from Germany. Don't get me wrong but the overall quality of the most USA made products suck. If trump would really wanna push your local production, he should forbid buying and import Japanese cars...nearly every single product is from China... just look in the IT industry... 

I worked a lot with American company's together, have been in the US for business visits several times and I definitely learned that most of the American employees are not from the most reliable side. I don't mean that personal please don't get me wrong. 

A bigger part of my family is living in NC (Wilmington) and we have the comparison between our country's and its a fact that only the better income households have a good life in the US. you don't even have a health insurance there which pays everything.. take the dentist for example.. there's definitely something wrong. And that is not  only the Chinese fault. 

Oh oh, this thread is about to go to hell :wacko:

I won't trash-talk Germany and maybe you don't trash-talk America?  :cheers:

Edited by Marty Backe
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Oh oh, this thread is about to go to hell :wacko:

I won't trash-talk Germany and maybe you don't trash-talk America?  :cheers:

 As a newbie here I was really hoping this type of thing didn’t happen on this forum.   I’m sad to see it. 

Edited by Patton250
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3 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

 As a newbie here I was really hoping this type of thing didn’t happen on this forum.   I’m sad to see it. 

It mostly doesn't, but @Lukas83 decided to go low for some reason. But notice that this is in the Off Topic section, so you have to go hunting for it.

Don't be sad :)

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29 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

 As a newbie here I was really hoping this type of thing didn’t happen on this forum.   I’m sad to see it. 

Don't be sad. We just need to be really level headed in these kind of conversations. If you can toss out your personal bias and ready for your believes to be challenge to find the harsh truth then nothing bad can happen really (I hope :wacko:). If anyone feels that they can't do that then just don't look here, simple :cheers:

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I think the goal is to have fair bilateral trade with China, not to stop trading with them.

Looks like I'm a little behind the times. Apparently China slightly out produces the United States. Here's one article with information: https://www.brookings.edu/research/global-manufacturing-scorecard-how-the-us-compares-to-18-other-nations/

OK so the goal of these tariff is to have fair bilateral trade with China. How do we know that we don't have a fair trade with China before the tariff started?

I did some digging around so here what I found so far:

220px-U.S._trade_deficit_in_2017.jpg

1. Trade deficit. Which means that US buy more good from China than the other way around. But it also true for Japan, Germany and Mexico even though US trade deficit with China is the worse. https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/index.html

 

2. China's unethical international business practice. This could be unfair trade for US. However, Russia does it too.

https://ustr.gov/about-us/policy-offices/press-office/press-releases/2018/january/ustr-releases-annual-reports-china

 

I'm sure there's more but the question is can tariff solves those problem so we can have fair bilateral trade with China?

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English is not my main language, so I might not have the correct image on all terminology. Also there is a hippie side in me which might paint slightly naive hopes for world politics as well.

What I fail to understand is how can a single country like the US (and most others) even expect to have an even bilateral trade with another single country?

Or is the point not to get to zero deficit, but to be ”fair” in some other manner?

Referring to http://atlas.media.mit.edu , the ratio between US import and export with Finland is close to that of China. By logic shouldn’t Finnish imports be struck with a same sort of tariff?

Sounds ridiculous. Why though, since it would be only fair? I don’t doubt for a second that the name and target of the tariff is just an excuse for something else. It seems so clear that the tariff can’t solve the issue it claims to fight.

I won’t even start on Trump as I’m hoping to have a nice day... :P

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7 hours ago, Lukas83 said:

I definitely learned that most of the American employees are not from the most reliable side

What do you mean by this?:wacko:

 

Also, if you want to use convincing arguments: posting on an American (for most of the members) forum that the majority of employees (and therefore, visitors of this forum) are unreliable to work with is for sure not going to help you win any debate, as from that point on that majority will stop reading or think that because of these generalisations the rest of your arguments are nonsense too.

And if this was true and we generalise further, what about the Chinese, where you are obliged to have your western-designed product built and assembled on different sites because if you don't they will make cheap copies of it within a couple of weeks of starting production, not mentioning the fact that intellectual property does not exist over there?

 

It's like posting on an NRA forum that all gun owners are crazy in-bred rednecks, and then trying to convince them to hand over their guns.

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Norway is so great with renewable energy, why can't we (America) be like them. Sure, trying scaling that up to 300+ million people, then we can talk.

Well actually, you could. You have a lot more sun than Norway, when it comes to solar energy :D 

 

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Finland has a slightly smaller amount of trade with the United States :).

Slightly... But the tariff in question doesn’t consider scale. If scale is the issue, EUCs are absolutely nothing to the US GDP. Yet they are punished by the maximum.

If import itself is the issue, I say slab an even tariff to all import. Otherwise it is singleing out.

Edited by mrelwood
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8 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

It mostly doesn't, but @Lukas83 decided to go low for some reason. But notice that this is in the Off Topic section, so you have to go hunting for it.

Don't be sad :)

To clear that up - english is not my foreign language and it could be, that my text was a little harsh sounding. its written words, so you cannot get it right what i mean.

i love the united states and my goal was not trash talking. i easily cant understand why trump is giving the fault completely to china - and he is messing up things which even will harm us in europe. and saying that you dont need china in any way is not true, thats all. 

 

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