Also in Switzerland EUs will be stopped now

[OliverH]

Two EU riders were stopped this days in the eastern part of Switzerland. Like Germany fun is over now.

How long do we need to push the Chinese manufacturers to wake up? They only need to integrate existing technology to build up an EU which is ready for the approval of a type process. 

You always get the feedback "impossible". It's a dead end street thinking - no real development/ engineering. 

Development/ engineering needs to move to open minded engineers. 

[Guest]

It's a drag. But imagine that: for (good old) Germany the manufacturers would have to build in a brake and a bell or horn. Maybe a steering wheel as well, I don't know. And then it would take another ten years for the approval ... 

[Chuts]

Its interesting to know that China which is a communist country offers more liberties in using EUs and other such electric devices than countries where you are meant to have more freedom.

[MrBump]

China is not a communist country in anything but the ruling party's name (I'd say it is capitalist with an element of central state planning, general dictatorship and plenty of corrupt officials arbitrating between local and central levels of government), but its human rights and civil liberties record is pretty dire so it's an interesting point.

It seems the Chinese Government is quite happy with things that make money and distracting toys are fine too.  It is asking the wrong kind of questions which leads to trouble.

In the West we have a better media machine for drowning out the wrong kind of questions so the illusion of freedom is maintained, and concessions for things like euc's are less likely in the places that aren't bring bringing in the cash, though I expect laws will be set by precedents in different localities.  There is an army of under-employed bureaucrats that need to justify their existence.

 

Oops, politics... 

 

[Tilmann]

It's a drag. But imagine that: for (good old) Germany the manufacturers would have to build in a brake and a bell or horn. Maybe a steering wheel as well, I don't know. And then it would take another ten years for the approval ... 

Hmmm, I haven't checked yet, but do german laws actually specify, that steering wheels or handlebars have to be physically attached to the vehicle? Otherwise, we could take an old bicycle handlebar with a bell, hold it in front of us while riding our EUC, and be legal 

[MrBump]

German lawmakers appear to be morons.

[Tilmann]

"Noooo, Officer, I did not ride anything illegal! I was kidnapped!! Charge the Grim Reaper!!!

[vemalilu]

"Noooo, Officer, I did not ride anything illegal! I was kidnapped!! Charge the Grim Reaper!!!

are These skiing boots?

[OliverH]

The MobHV in Germany is currently the only container/ category which fits for EUs, where EUs should be placed. Why? Self balancing and no need of a mechanical brake. The bell can be put on a finger (skater bell). It's accepted over here in Switzerland.

[Jag_Rip]

I passed/crossed several police cars and motorcycles around Winterthur all summer long and none has decided to stop me so far.

But I got Lights, Reflectors, ride on the side of the road, give signals with my hand and ride predictably.  I dont know what these did that were stopped. Do you know the circumstances why they were stopped?

[dpong]

Its interesting to know that China which is a communist country offers more liberties in using EUs and other such electric devices than countries where you are meant to have more freedom.

Yes, it appears that those in Western countries who have been pining for "common sense regulations" are about to get their wish, good and hard.   Sorry. 

[OliverH]

It's not about to have a wish to get regulations. In the central European countries (e.g. Switzerland/ Germany) we have a difference between human powered/ human powered with machine assistance or machine powered only. If machine powered only than you need a type approved vehicle to be registered to get a licence plate to drive street legal. But:

• currently only Switzerland has the regulations in place covering EUs. But no EU currently full fill the specs (safety reliable power train).
• Germany will follow next year with regulations
• there're countries having regulations to categorize vehicles but didn't have a category for self balanced one wheel vehicles.

So a population of 90 mil people with enough potential customers (only look on commuters) are there for a business case. But the manufacturer are lacking project-, service-management-, integration- and business-skills to get it done. The technology is still available.  Sad but true.

[dpong]

@OliverH I will try to speak gently because I do not wish to seem cross, but I do have a different perspective.  Switzerland has regulations in place to cover EUCs that do not exist, by your reckoning.  They have common sense regulations to allow mythical EUCs.  Actual EUCs are not allowed.   By your words, Germany will follow next year allowing non-existent EUCs only.  (If I understand what you are saying - no expert here.)

Do you see kind of what I'm getting at?  I have Ninebot E+, a very nice EUC like many others.  I ride it every day.  It seems fairly safe, but if I were to turn into a maniac while riding, then no specifications are going to save the innocent bystanders.  The specs are not the important thing here.  How I ride is very much more important than the specs.  

Presumably manufacturers of EUCs seek to add features and specs that will appeal to their customers.  Otherwise they will go out of business.  So they by-and-large will adapt to customer demands, or die.  Apparently these regulations do not coincide with what customers have so far demanded, or else these EUCs that meet the regulatory requirements would already exist.  Assuming the regulations were in line with customer choices, that is.  So in fact the regulators have substituted their superior specifications to those of the actual customers.  

What I'm objecting to is the presumption that the regulators are making the correct common sense demands, and that their demands are superior to and supersede what the actual customers have demanded.  Do the regulators understand EUCs on a deeper level than you do?  That was meant merely as a rhetorical question.  I like to question things. 

Thank you for at least considering my minority opinion.  Peace, Love, and EUCs.  

[OliverH]

@OliverH I will try to speak gently because I do not wish to seem cross, but I do have a different perspective.  Switzerland has regulations in place to cover EUCs that do not exist, by your reckoning.  They have common sense regulations to allow mythical EUCs.  Actual EUCs are not allowed.   By your words, Germany will follow next year allowing non-existent EUCs only.  (If I understand what you are saying - no expert here.)

Do you see kind of what I'm getting at?  I have Ninebot E+, a very nice EUC like many others.  I ride it every day.  It seems fairly safe, but if I were to turn into a maniac while riding, then no specifications are going to save the innocent bystanders.  The specs are not the important thing here.  How I ride is very much more important than the specs.  

Presumably manufacturers of EUCs seek to add features and specs that will appeal to their customers.  Otherwise they will go out of business.  So they by-and-large will adapt to customer demands, or die.  Apparently these regulations do not coincide with what customers have so far demanded, or else these EUCs that meet the regulatory requirements would already exist.  Assuming the regulations were in line with customer choices, that is.  So in fact the regulators have substituted their superior specifications to those of the actual customers.  

What I'm objecting to is the presumption that the regulators are making the correct common sense demands, and that their demands are superior to and supersede what the actual customers have demanded.  Do the regulators understand EUCs on a deeper level than you do?  That was meant merely as a rhetorical question.  I like to question things. 

Thank you for at least considering my minority opinion.  Peace, Love, and EUCs.  

i get your point. That was my one as I started to look at it. I thought

• there must be enough power to balance a given weight of a driver by full speed under all road conditions (most will fail here)
• then there should be a "smart" control board to cope with all conditions and thresholds (again you see them blocking the motor, suddenly shut off (protection main board first, driver is second prio,..))
• before opening the first EU I thought they're made in professional manner. But than you realise that faults happen everywhere. Cables are routed in non optimal conditions, can be damaged by the shelf and can shorten (blocking the engine or shut off).

The he first examples are easy to fix in a western way of thinking about and acting.

Then we come again to the point safety reliable. Gov estimates the point above are no problem and just test that use cases are covered (so some EUs will fail here).

Take a Segway. Yes it's has two wheels (balancing, driving, steering). There's redundancy all over the chain battery to the motors. That's what gov wants to see here (safety reliable). We all get then a much higher level of maturity. It can be archived, technology is there.

 

But we should discuss this in an own thread.

[Ben Ryan]

I was at the recent German auto show in Frankfurt and amazingly enough, bumped into the German department of transport that had a stand there and were supporting the auto show. 

an associated of mine and I queried about the EUC and their exact words were "as the EUC is still new, there is now direct road laws been made yet BUT users should ride them with responsibly and consider the use of appropriate PPE and consider other pedestrians including the road conditions and traffic." 

I think this is a fair enough comment by the transport authorities and without them banning the use of EUC like they have now done in the Uk based on a road law that was implemented in 1835..based on the penny farthing!! 

 

[Tilmann]

I was at the recent German auto show in Frankfurt and amazingly enough, bumped into the German department of transport that had a stand there and were supporting the auto show. 

an associated of mine and I queried about the EUC and their exact words were "as the EUC is still new, there is now direct road laws been made yet BUT users should ride them with responsibly and consider the use of appropriate PPE and consider other pedestrians including the road conditions and traffic." 

I think this is a fair enough comment by the transport authorities and without them banning the use of EUC like they have now done in the Uk based on a road law that was implemented in 1835..based on the penny farthing!! 

 

Hi @Ben Ryan,

indeed, that's an unusually reasonable statement! I assume, a typo slipped in: "as the EUC is still new, there is NO direct road laws been made yet..." - correct?

As you can tell from quite a few reports on this forum, that reasonable policy did not make it down to the last police person on the streets and they are still issuing tickets, especially bicycle cops as it appears. And: I could not find any such statement in writing from an at least "semi-official" source.

Thus, it would be extremely helpful to have the exact words (ideally in german) an a name of a DOT representative we can quote. Can you help us with that???

 

[OliverH]

This statement can't be true or was given by booth staff hired for the exhibition. This sentence would be nice. Current laws tell a different story. Insurance companies started to reject insurance contracts given out to customers with EUs. If we get a subcategory in law/ MobHV the current rules would expect that EUs must be type approved and get an insurance licence plate like motor bicycles and higher speed eBikes (40/45 km/h).

But indeed the sentence would be nice to create a temporary solution up to the moment where all is defined properly.

[Kevin]

@OliverH I will try to speak gently because I do not wish to seem cross, but I do have a different perspective.  Switzerland has regulations in place to cover EUCs that do not exist, by your reckoning.  They have common sense regulations to allow mythical EUCs.  Actual EUCs are not allowed.   By your words, Germany will follow next year allowing non-existent EUCs only.  (If I understand what you are saying - no expert here.)

Do you see kind of what I'm getting at?  I have Ninebot E+, a very nice EUC like many others.  I ride it every day.  It seems fairly safe, but if I were to turn into a maniac while riding, then no specifications are going to save the innocent bystanders.  The specs are not the important thing here.  How I ride is very much more important than the specs.  

Presumably manufacturers of EUCs seek to add features and specs that will appeal to their customers.  Otherwise they will go out of business.  So they by-and-large will adapt to customer demands, or die.  Apparently these regulations do not coincide with what customers have so far demanded, or else these EUCs that meet the regulatory requirements would already exist.  Assuming the regulations were in line with customer choices, that is.  So in fact the regulators have substituted their superior specifications to those of the actual customers.  

What I'm objecting to is the presumption that the regulators are making the correct common sense demands, and that their demands are superior to and supersede what the actual customers have demanded.  Do the regulators understand EUCs on a deeper level than you do?  That was meant merely as a rhetorical question.  I like to question things. 

Thank you for at least considering my minority opinion.  Peace, Love, and EUCs.  

There is also the argument that the consumer is not always right. For example, seat belt laws - unpopular, but saves lives.

Then again, I am a consumer and would really prefer that EUC become widely popular *before* introducing legislation - because otherwise it could just kill off all manufacturers from the outset, and then we have nothing.

[OliverH]

I've spoken with some of the manufacturers to integrate existing technology to meet requirements. There're not so many in this field with the necessary engineering skills. This is the chance of smaller companies to bypass the big ones. Regulations will adjust the ranking of companies and may be clean up. The manufacturers do not realise what happens now. 

[Ben Ryan]

@Tilmann I am afraid I would not be able to help with tracking down the Govt representative we met on the day. 

@OliverH, in other words what your saying is I'm lying? 

[dpong]

@Kevin

https://www.libertariannews.org/2010/02/27/seatbelts-cause-more-pedestrian-and-cyclist-deaths/

Yes, I do hope that the regulations don't kill the baby whilst in its crib.  

[OliverH]

@Tilmann I am afraid I would not be able to help with tracking down the Govt representative we met on the day. 

@OliverH, in other words what your saying is I'm lying? 

I don't say you're lying. Have a look what regulations look like at the moment in germany.

 

[Jag_Rip]

This morning I had my first meet with Police that actually stopped me. Before they just were looking at me smiling.

Was a nice and friendly experience. There I was rolling along on the side of the road when they pulled up next to me and asked me if I'd have a moment of my time to spare!

Of course, Mr. Officer how can I be of service? We stopped at a parkinglot close by and he told me his name and why he stopped me.

He then pulled out some washed out paper showing an list with pictures of Segways, Rikshas and a old Solowheel and told me these are illegal to ride on the road without license plates.
I friendly pulled out my phone and told him I specifically bought this EUC because it fits the regulation for a light motorcycle, hence not needing license plates, insurance and Typengenehmigung.

When he saw that the document was loaded from the "Vereinigung der Strassenverkehrsämter" those that actually issue licenseplates, he thanked me for educating him and wished me a pleasant day. I am still smiling inside Telling a law enforcer about the law is just great!

[OliverH]

This morning I had my first meet with Police that actually stopped me. Before they just were looking at me smiling.

Was a nice and friendly experience. There I was rolling along on the side of the road when they pulled up next to me and asked me if I'd have a moment of my time to spare!

Of course, Mr. Officer how can I be of service? We stopped at a parkinglot close by and he told me his name and why he stopped me.

He then pulled out some washed out paper showing an list with pictures of Segways, Rikshas and a old Solowheel and told me these are illegal to ride on the road without license plates.
I friendly pulled out my phone and told him I specifically bought this EUC because it fits the regulation for a light motorcycle, hence not needing license plates, insurance and Typengenehmigung.

When he saw that the document was loaded from the "Vereinigung der Strassenverkehrsämter" those that actually issue licenseplates, he thanked me for educating him and wished me a pleasant day. I am still smiling inside Telling a law enforcer about the law is just great!

Holly shit

Be carefull with this story and the ASA paper. If they're eduacted they know the difference. Bad educated police staff. Have fun

light motorcycles are power assisted bicycles and not machine powered only and are limited to 250W. They've mechanic brakes.

[Jag_Rip]

@OliverH I dont see it that way.

First, my device is a Ninebot one E+ with a engine of 2000w max and nominal power of 500w, topspeed of 20kph, I am not talking about Gotways or Kingsongs that go up to 30kph and beyond. Thats a totally different story.

So this applies to my device IMO:

VTS Art. 18 b

«Leicht-Motorfahrräder», das heisst Fahrzeuge mit einem Elektromotor von höchstens 0,50 kW Motorleistung, einer bauartbedingten Höchstgeschwindigkeit bis 20 km/h und einer allfälligen Tretunterstützung, die bis höchstens 25 km/h wirkt, und die:

1.einplätzig sind,
2.speziell für das Mitführen einer behinderten Person eingerichtet sind,
3.aus einer speziellen Fahrrad-Rollstuhl-Kombination⁴ bestehen, oder
4.speziell für das Mitführen von höchstens zwei Kindern auf geschützten Sitzplätzen eingerichtet sind

 

Considering Brakes:

VTS Art. 181a

Elektro-Stehroller müssen mit einer Betriebs- und einer Feststellbremse ausgerüstet sein. Eine Reibungsbremse ist nicht erforderlich.

2 Die Betriebsbremse kann bestehen aus:

a. zwei voneinander unabhängigen Bremsen, die jeweils gleichmässig auf die Räder einer Achse wirken und die bei gleichzeitiger Betätigung auf alle Räder wirken;
b. einer Bremse, die auf alle Räder wirkt, und einer abstufbaren Hilfsbremse.

3 Die Hilfsbremse nach Absatz 2 Buchstabe b darf als Feststellbremse benützt werden. Anstelle der Feststellbremse kann eine Abstellstütze dienen, wenn sie das vollbeladene Fahrzeug in einer Steigung und einem Gefälle bis 12 Prozent am Wegrollen hindern kann. Für einrädrige Fahrzeuge ist eine andere geeignete Abstellmöglichkeit ausreichend, wenn dadurch die gleichen Bedingungen erfüllt werden.

here are the admin.ch PDFs that summarize what you need to have, I am sure you know them already
http://www.astra.admin.ch/dienstleistungen/00125/00547/index.html?lang=de

And this is the ASA PDF I was referring to the Police-Officer
http://www.asa.ch/media/archive1/Shop/Merkblaetter/Gratis/2012/MB_KT_03_d_003.pdf my argument there was, if he makes me go register my wheel, they will refuse to register it based on this document.

I am aware that its a grey Zone, since a Ninebot up to E+ applies to both categories. But you still could be sued, since it lacks the proper labeling. Mr. nice Policeguy asked me if he could see a engine rating or speed limit listed on the device, and I could show it to him by opening the mobo compartment where there is a sticker.. strictly speaking that's not compliant (has to be visible without removing or opening stuff, permanent, not sticker) but he let that slip and didnt even ask for a finger-bell.