chrisjunlee Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 Just now, ir_fuel said: I'll believe what I read, if it makes sense. It makes sense Admittedly, countersteering on a unicycle is something that bothered me for weeks. I couldn't find any evidence of it, until I realized we do it via hip turning. When you hip turn, your lower body counter-turns to preserve angular momentum - that is the countersteer. Couple that with the toe/heel weight shifts, and the wheel just turns beautifully. That's my mental model at least. It's hard for me to really notice on the mten3 since it's so nimble. Hence my interest in the z10. Would love to try out a z10 at speed and just try initiating a countersteer and seeing what happens. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) 53 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: And what are the benefits of 100V over the 84V? Just higher top speed and a wider voltage sag buffer right? Yup 53 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: I also heard the torque is lower on the 100V, which was surprising. I call shenanigans, it's the same to me IMHO, as well as long time local rider friends here in NYC. What I'm learning from scooter EUC converts like @Ben Kim is that higher V will be more energy inefficient/power hungry accelerating from dead stop or going slower, but more efficient traveling high speed. Edited July 9, 2019 by houseofjob 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 5 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: Admittedly, countersteering on a unicycle is something that bothered me for weeks. I couldn't find any evidence of it, until I realized we do it via hip turning. When you hip turn, your lower body counter-turns to preserve angular momentum - that is the countersteer. Couple that with the toe/heel weight shifts, and the wheel just turns beautifully. That's my mental model at least. It's hard for me to really notice on the mten3 since it's so nimble. Hence my interest in the z10. Would love to try out a z10 at speed and just try initiating a countersteer and seeing what happens. Good explanation! (I've had trouble reasoning it in general, but 100% feel it in body while riding) Also, getting to the point of counter steering on the Z took me a good 6 months to really get a clearer picture of the body physics needed, so just realize that if you do a test ride, it's not entirely intuitive how to grip your feet and position your body, etc., hence the controversial opinions about this wheel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 4 minutes ago, houseofjob said: I really wouldn't be so sure there, the tire feels are the same IMHO (makes sense both being about 17x 3) and similar 50+ whee weights. In the end, it's really gonna come down to personal preference choosing between these two wheels, mainly in the aesthetics, wheel body volume, speed vs torque, etc., no clear better than IMHO The tire feel was the one thing I was most worried about. @Marty Backe said the Nikola's tire is exceptionally comfortable. If you're saying they feel the same, that seals the deal on the 16X :D Things swaying me to the 16X: kingsong build quality (electronics) shells are easy to swap for replacement aesthetics: I don't like the figure 8 look of the nikola love the z10-esque edge LED lighting 2A usb port: the gotway 500mA usb is only useful for legacy devices, and even then, low power ones. I won't be able to power any of my cameras that draw 1.5A anything USB-C benefits from 2A kingsong handle The only thing going for the gotway? They'll probably tune their motor for higher performance, which comes at the cost of lower safety margins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 38 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: kingsong build quality (electronics) Yes, the electronics might be a bit better on King Songs, but for me personally, that's a non-factor. Now if you're talking shells, IMHO KS shells have gotten worse, judging by the issues I've seen with KS18L/XL shell cracking I've seen for riders here in NYC, but in general, shell body quality is model to model different, manufacturer regardless. 38 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: shells are easy to swap for replacement I personally don't see a big difference, King Song vs Gotway here. Full shell replacement is a PITA for any wheel. 38 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: aesthetics: I don't like the figure 8 look of the nikola love the z10-esque edge LED lighting kingsong handle Yes, these are real, personal preference factors for sure. For me, the 16X looks do nothing for me, not anywhere close to the Z10 A+ aesthetics, but that's just me. Also, I'll pick the scorpion style as my fav every day of the week, because it give so much 360 degree range of trolleying control, again, just me. 38 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: 2A usb port: the gotway 500mA usb is only useful for legacy devices, and even then, low power ones. I won't be able to power any of my cameras that draw 1.5A anything USB-C benefits from 2A LOL, I barely ever notice my wheels have USB ports, would rather use battery banks. Plus, I'm about to rip out my USB on my Monster and replace it with a non-latching button for motor disengage 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, houseofjob said: Also, I'll pick the scorpion style as my fav every day of the week, because it give so much 360 degree range of trolleying control, again, just me. Wow, that's the first time I've heard someone preferring it. Elaborate please? Quote LOL, I barely ever notice my wheels have USB ports, would rather use battery banks. Plus, I'm about to rip out my USB on my Monster and replace it with a non-latching button for motor disengage I like not having another thing to keep track of. And I like the idea of the EUC being a wheeled generator. Doesn't matter if I never use it - it, umm, completely justifies the purchase *cough* Edited July 9, 2019 by chrisjunlee 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 8 hours ago, caravela said: Nicola has one problem for me. How to carry it in hands??? In reality, the Nikola is very easy to carry. You lift with your palm and fingers and the wheel leaning against the side of your body. I have found the weird super thick carrying handle to be a non-issue. Really. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said: The tire feel was the one thing I was most worried about. @Marty Backe said the Nikola's tire is exceptionally comfortable. If you're saying they feel the same, that seals the deal on the 16X :D Things swaying me to the 16X: kingsong build quality (electronics) shells are easy to swap for replacement aesthetics: I don't like the figure 8 look of the nikola love the z10-esque edge LED lighting 2A usb port: the gotway 500mA usb is only useful for legacy devices, and even then, low power ones. I won't be able to power any of my cameras that draw 1.5A anything USB-C benefits from 2A kingsong handle The only thing going for the gotway? They'll probably tune their motor for higher performance, which comes at the cost of lower safety margins. I sure wish I could put a few hundred miles on the 16X. I'm really not convinced that they will have the same ride. I know that they won't. Every wheel that I've ever ridden is different. Perhaps Chris will discuss the differences in his upcoming video, yet I don't believe he has much time on the Nikola (a few miles doesn't count). The bottom line is that the Nikola exists now and has been owned by people for months. The 16X is still not released. So if you buy the 16X now (July 2019) you are buying a story vs the Nikola which is a fact. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 16 minutes ago, houseofjob said: Yes, the electronics might be a bit better on King Songs, but for me personally, that's a non-factor. Now if you're talking shells, IMHO KS shells have gotten worse, judging by the issues I've seen with KS18L/XL shell cracking I've seen for riders here in NYC, but in general, shell body quality is model to model different, manufacturer regardless. I personally don't see a big difference, King Song vs Gotway here. Full shell replacement is a PITA for any wheel. Yes, these are real, personal preference factors for sure. For me, the 16X looks do nothing for me, not anywhere close to the Z10 A+ aesthetics, but that's just me. Also, I'll pick the scorpion style as my fav every day of the week, because it give so much 360 degree range of trolleying control, again, just me. LOL, I barely ever notice my wheels have USB ports, would rather use battery banks. Plus, I'm about to rip out my USB on my Monster and replace it with a non-latching button for motor disengage After years and many wheels, I've never used the USB port. It's a novelty for me. Maybe someday it'll come in handy for something, but like you, I prefer a battery bank rather than have a line tethered from my body down to the wheel, etc. I don't know about the KS16X sides, but the Nikola sides are brain dead simple to remove. KingSong electronics look better for sure, but they all (Gotway, KingSong, Ninebot, etc) fail. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: I like not having another thing to keep track of. And I like the idea of the EUC being a wheeled generator. Doesn't matter if I never use it - it, umm, completely justifies the purchase *cough* 16 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: Wow, that's the first time I've heard someone preferring it. Elaborate please? Well, first off, don't get me wrong, the KS style is excellent, my 2nd favorite. But when you accidentally trolley the wheel too far away from you, at a higher leaning angle, the scorpion style allows for a bit more control to recover than the straight and diagonal KS style trolley. Plus the handle/grip end being a bulbous end in the palm of your hands gives you a better point control to manipulate than a horizontal long stick grip. 8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: I sure wish I could put a few hundred miles on the 16X. I'm really not convinced that they will have the same ride. I know that they won't. Every wheel that I've ever ridden is different. Perhaps Chris will discuss the differences in his upcoming video, yet I don't believe he has much time on the Nikola (a few miles doesn't count). I think I'm being read wrong here: I'm saying the general overall tire feel / physics for the similar 17 x 3, not the exact ride-response feel, as all manufacturers have a certain gyro response feel, and the wheel weight distributions are always specific to that wheel model, etc, etc. (and yes, I haven't had enough time on a Nikola yet, not nearly as much as you, but that will soon change I think ) Edited July 9, 2019 by houseofjob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 18 minutes ago, houseofjob said: Well, first off, don't get me wrong, the KS style is excellent, my 2nd favorite. But when you accidentally trolley the wheel too far away from you, at a higher leaning angle, the scorpion style allows for a bit more control to recover than the straight and diagonal KS style trolley. Plus the handle/grip end being a bulbous end in the palm of your hands gives you a better point control to manipulate than a horizontal long stick grip. I think I'm being read wrong here: I'm saying the general overall tire feel / physics for the similar 17 x 3, not the exact ride-response feel, as all manufacturers have a certain gyro response feel, and the wheel weight distributions are always specific to that wheel model, etc, etc. (and yes, I haven't had enough time on a Nikola yet, not nearly as much as you, but that will soon change I think ) Ah. Another Nikola convert joins the fold 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted July 9, 2019 Author Share Posted July 9, 2019 52 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Perhaps Chris will discuss the differences in his upcoming video, yet I don't believe he has much time on the Nikola (a few miles doesn't count). @houseofjob your name is Chris?! And you're Korean, into EUCs, a YouTuber and an 80's kid? =_= 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phunny Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 Another unique, that I really enjoy is the Solowheel Xtreme. 18x2.5 tire, lightest 18 available, balanced well enough to penny spin, ride mode is the softest. 12mph limit is just right for learning, teaching, and safe riding. The white one doesn't show scratches unless it gets muddy and by then... Feels very strong until the battery gives out, but for 3-6 miles it's bliss for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 2 hours ago, chrisjunlee said: @houseofjob your name is Chris?! And you're Korean, into EUCs, a YouTuber and an 80's kid? =_= (I didn't even realize) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kens Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 3 hours ago, houseofjob said: But when you accidentally trolley the wheel too far away from you, at a higher leaning angle, the scorpion style allows for a bit more control to recover than the straight and diagonal KS style trolley. Plus the handle/grip end being a bulbous end in the palm of your hands gives you a better point control to manipulate than a horizontal long stick grip. Hmm it's actually really a word.. I learn new things everyday.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 11 minutes ago, Kens said: Hmm it's actually really a word.. I learn new things everyday.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew900nyc Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 21 hours ago, chrisjunlee said: I'm new to this as well! This is my 2nd week of wheeling. MCM5 is coming in, but now @Marty Backe has me thinking about the Nikola. I might return the MCM5 and get the Nikola. But I love the thought of having a Z10 steamroller, plus I'm sure the kingsong 16x will be better than the Nikola. Since you're interested in countersteering and kinematics, you're going to love this one. Why does pointing your hips and upper body towards a turn work so well? Because when you turn your hip/upper body, something has to turn the other way to conserve angular momentum. That something, is everything below your hips. That counter turn effect is the countersteer! I don't have enough time to learn as much as I'd like to about the pros & cons of the various makes and models of wheels that are available, but now that I'm hearing all this talk about how great the Nikola is, I am curious why it would be a better choice than the MSX or 18XL? On the other hand, perhaps it's best that I don't obtain this information, given my desire not to go wheel crazy! Interesting way of describing a naturally-occurring countersteering phenomenon! I never thought about it that way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew900nyc Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 16 hours ago, ir_fuel said: Sorry, but this has nothing to do at all with countersteering on bicycles and motorcycles. This is more of a mass transfer thing, the way rally drivers turn left before throwing the car in a drift in a right hand turn. Thanks for the correcting me. 9 hours ago, ir_fuel said: I'll believe what I read, if it makes sense. It makes sense Now that I've watched the video you posted, it looks like countersteering on a unicycle involves changing the heading of the wheel (not the lean angle) in the opposite direction of your intended turn, just prior to initiating your turn. The countersteering technique I had described referred to leaning the unicycle in the direction opposite your intended turn, just prior to initiating the turn. As you correctly pointed out, turning the unicycle by the weight-shift technique is fully initiated by the rider, whereas the counter-steering technique of changing heading may actually help initiate the turn. I think both techniques are good to have in your toolbox on a pedal unicycle... and probably on EUC's, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew900nyc Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 9 hours ago, houseofjob said: Nice! Good to have confirmation from the manual unicycle side, as I've definitely countersteered on my Z, and will do the same less frequently on thinner tire wheels, only when approaching a turn at high speed. Also, you've come to the wrong place to curb your new found EUC addiction! We are a heavy EUC buying enabler forum! You need to join the local NYC groups (in my signature on desktop) so we can further enable you! (I know some of our guys have met up with the manual uni group for unicycle day in the past) After looking at the video that @ir_fuel posted, I think countersteering on a unicycle involves changing the heading (rather than the lean angle) in the opposite direction of your turn, just prior to initiating the turn. On my pedal unicycles, I've often used that technique (at slower speeds) and the opposite lean technique I previously described (at faster speeds), but I haven't had enough time on my MSX yet to analyze these techniques on EUC's. Haha, I had a strong sense that I came to the wrong place to curb my EUC addiction! Thanks, if I can find some free time to pull myself away from work, I would definitely like to meet up with you guys! When I was a member of the pedal group, they used to meet at Grant's Tomb. Is that where the guys from your group met up with them? Or are you referring to the annual unicycle festival they have in NYC? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, andrew900nyc said: When I was a member of the pedal group, they used to meet at Grant's Tomb. Is that where the guys from your group met up with them? Or are you referring to the annual unicycle festival they have in NYC? Interesting. And no, I meant the annual unicycle festival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Marty Backe Posted July 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2019 56 minutes ago, andrew900nyc said: I don't have enough time to learn as much as I'd like to about the pros & cons of the various makes and models of wheels that are available, but now that I'm hearing all this talk about how great the Nikola is, I am curious why it would be a better choice than the MSX or 18XL? On the other hand, perhaps it's best that I don't obtain this information, given my desire not to go wheel crazy! Interesting way of describing a naturally-occurring countersteering phenomenon! I never thought about it that way! I don't have time to repeat myself endlessly. If you have the time and interest you can watch the video that I posted on the 2nd page of this thread, near the top. In the first 10-minutes I talk about how it's better than the MSX and KS18XL, and I also summarize things again in the last ~5-minutes. If you don't have the time for that, than don't obtain the information that you seek and stay sane 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, andrew900nyc said: I don't have enough time to learn as much as I'd like to about the pros & cons of the various makes and models of wheels that are available, but now that I'm hearing all this talk about how great the Nikola is, I am curious why it would be a better choice than the MSX or 18XL? On the other hand, perhaps it's best that I don't obtain this information, given my desire not to go wheel crazy! Interesting way of describing a naturally-occurring countersteering phenomenon! I never thought about it that way! @houseofjoband @Marty Backe are your god tier gurus on EUCs. They have more experience with EUCs, than even the manufactures themselves. They will guide you. Check out their YouTube videos. Start with the most recent ones since the EUC landscape keeps updating so fast. I particularly like houseofjob's content, since it's very concise, structured, and entertaining: houseofjob's Kingsong 18XL review Marty has a wealth of information, but his style is more rambly unedited "let's hang out and talk" muti-faceted vignettes. I listen to his videos to unwind, and pick up a lot through osmosis. Here's his Gotway Nikola test. They are both subject matter experts that don't get caught up in hype, nor are they going to feed you fluff for the sole purpose of clickbait viewcount (aka Casey Neistat). =========== My two bits as a 2 week newbie =========== Personally, I'm holding out for the Kingsong 16x, which is shipping mid August. I believe the 16x is going to be the end all wheel for my purposes. In the meantime, I'm picking up a MCM5 to enjoy my summer. I would avoid the MSX, since it's a legacy design. Houseofjob goes into that in one of his posts. There are issues with it that will get worked out in the refresh. Edited July 10, 2019 by chrisjunlee 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted July 10, 2019 Share Posted July 10, 2019 46 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said: @houseofjoband @Marty Backe are your god tier gurus on EUCs. They have more experience with EUCs, than even the manufactures themselves. They will guide you. Check out their YouTube videos. Start with the most recent ones since the EUC landscape keeps updating so fast. I particularly like houseofjob's content, since it's very concise, structured, and entertaining: houseofjob's Kingsong 18XL review Marty has a wealth of information, but his style is more rambly unedited "let's hang out and talk" muti-faceted vignettes. I listen to his videos to unwind, and pick up a lot through osmosis. Here's his Gotway Nikola test. They are both subject matter experts that don't get caught up in hype, nor are they going to feed you fluff for the sole purpose of clickbait viewcount (aka Casey Neistat). =========== My two bits as a 2 week newbie =========== Personally, I'm holding out for the Kingsong 16x, which is shipping mid August. I believe the 16x is going to be the end all wheel for my purposes. In the meantime, I'm picking up a MCM5 to enjoy my summer. I would avoid the MSX, since it's a legacy design. Houseofjob goes into that in one of his posts. There are issues with it that will get worked out in the refresh. You're a little over the top in your praise, but what can I say Now what's this about @houseofjob trash-talking the MSX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjunlee Posted July 10, 2019 Author Share Posted July 10, 2019 1 minute ago, Marty Backe said: You're a little over the top in your praise, but what can I say I'm just stating facts, don't let it get to your head 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post houseofjob Posted July 10, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted July 10, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Marty Backe said: Now what's this about @houseofjob trash-talking the MSX You've read me saying this Marty, I'm not a fan of the MSX, but this is just me; I readily recognize the best-in-class performance and don't really discourage anyone to not get one FWIW, as everyone has different priorities. First, I never liked the fact that they were just recycling the MSV3 shell / design, wishing they went to their newer egg-like designs; don't like paying new $$$$ for yester-year, re-packager design (although waiting on a refresh Monster design was taking damn forever, so I couldn't wait much more and bought a v2 *smh) Second, the whole setup is just not comfortable compared to many other wheels. The MSX modes are all waaaay too hard, with no real buttery Gotway soft mode IMHO to speak of. Then, the shifted higher pedals on the recycled MSV3 shell to allow for the bigger tire, means that there is even less side shell to support your legs, not confidence inspiring when taking such a wheel max speeds (unlike the masses, I actually always like the extreme, as you say "dihedral" angling to the pedals, as I'm pretty sure this was Gotway's way to better anchor the legs and compensate for that lack of shell body height support). With my above sentiment, I was just waiting for Gotway to repackage that awesome MSX performance in a better, newer shell design; with better amenities (the MSX trolley and trolley grab handle are the worst IMHO, and for short wheels these days, motor disengage is a must for me); and an actual real, SOft Gotway soft mode..... and to me, they released close enough to just that with the Nikola Edited July 10, 2019 by houseofjob 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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