Your top 3 unique must have wheels? 🌟

[chrisjunlee]

What are your top 3 unique EUCs that are must haves? And what's your rationality behind them?

I'm new to EUCs, but based on my research, my list would be:

1. Gotway Mten3 (own, 2 weeks)
   • The most nimble wheel on the planet.
     • 10" u-turns no problem. That's less than half the width of a narrow sidewalk.
     • Responsive. So responsive. It's so much fun instantly weaving around cracks and potholes.
   • Torque. Nothing like zipping up steep 30° hills at 15mph.
   • Can easily crawl at a leisurely walk's pace, so your pedestrian friends don't have to speed up.
   • The 3" wide tire is just perfection - allows me to comfortably cruise at 25+ mph despite it being a 10" wheel.
2. Kingsong 16x > MCM5 (have not tried either)
   • Hope: Can handle curbs? 
   • Hope: nimbler than a 18" wheel.
3. Ninebot z10 (have not tried)
   • 4.1" wide wheel!
   • "No wheel comes close to the confidence this steamroller empowers within you. Go forth and steamroll all the things." - @houseofjob 2018 [z10 review]
   • Have heard it's like turning a motorcycle - I have a motorcycle track background, and I miss the advanced body positioning techniques of high performance motorcycling.

Why not the Gotway MSX, Gotway Monster, or the Kingsong 18XL? Because for my needs, they don't offer anything unique nor serve a purpose to me; they are the most practical wheels for commuting, but I'm not looking for practicality, just sheer outlier uniqueness.

Ultimately, I want to reduce redundancy. And ideally, one wheel should be able to do something that no other wheel in the list can do - aka, it's not made obsolete. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[ir_fuel]

Funny

I have at home:

Mten3, MCM5 and Z10

 

 

 

The motorcycling part is only half true. You won't be able to actually do serious lean angles. It's just a lot of work to get it cornered. I don't know if that's a plus TBH.

[chrisjunlee]

13 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

I have at home:

Mten3, MCM5 and Z10

You are a fine gentleman and a scholar 🧐🎩

13 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

The motorcycling part is only half true. You won't be able to actually do serious lean angles. It's just a lot of work to get it cornered. I don't know if that's a plus TBH.

Beginner/intermediate motorcyclists turn by leaning the bike and keeping their body upright. In track school, in order to perform at the limits of traction, you're trained the exact opposite - you learn to minimize lean angle with body positioning. It's necessary for a couple of reasons: 

• you would run out of lean if you leaned without counterweighing
• in high performance motorcycling, you have the most traction the more upright the wheel is (due to having full vertical suspension + tire contact patch)

The first couple of days on the mten3, I was doing all my turns with counterweighting. Took me forever to train myself to actually tilt the wheel in.

Also, I believe the effort to turn the z10 can be mitigated by countersteering. I've yet to figure out what that means in unicycle kinematics.

Edited July 8, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[ir_fuel]

2 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Beginner/intermediate motorcyclists turn by leaning the bike and keeping their body upright. In track school, in order to perform at the limits of traction, you're trained the exact opposite - you learn to minimize lean angle with body positioning. It's necessary for a couple of reasons: 

I rode motorcycles on race tracks for about 8 years, 15 track days a year. I think I know how they work wrt cornering  

[chrisjunlee]

Just now, ir_fuel said:

I rode motorcycles on race tracks for about 8 years, 15 track days a year. I think I know how they work wrt cornering  

Ok Mr. Keith Code 

Have you figured out how to countersteer the z10? 

Also, what are your thoughts on the mten3 vs the MCM5?

[ir_fuel]

Just now, chrisjunlee said:

Ok Mr. Keith Code 

I stopped twisting the wrist, these days it's pedal to the metal  

Just now, chrisjunlee said:

Have you figured out how to countersteer the z10? 

Not really, I think that only applies when you actually have a "steer". By pushing (or pulling, whatever floats your boat) you initiate a tilt because the rear wheel pushes forward in a fixed direction which makes the vehicle turn. Hard to do that without handlebars and only 1 wheel. The "motorcycle techniques" explained wrt the Z10 is just how to man handle it in turning, especially in long corners / roundabouts.

Just now, chrisjunlee said:

Also, what are your thoughts on the mten3 vs the MCM5?

You can't compare them. Mten3 is so small you can take it everywhere easily, but you have to be really careful when riding it long distances as the small wheel diameter can quickly destabilise it when hitting potholes or other obstacles you didn't notice. It's a lot of fun to just goof around with though. It's also pretty impressive how it can climb hills. Also nice that it fits in a laptop backpack.

MCM5 with its egg shell takes some getting used to for some people as you don't touch the shell at all because of its shape. I can't tell you heaps about it because that wheel is mainly used in the paddock since the Z10 is simply way too bulky to take with me. Never did any long trips on it. TBH I could as well use an Inmotion V5F for that purpose.

[chrisjunlee]

5 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

MCM5 with its egg shell takes some getting used to for some people as you don't touch the shell at all because of its shape. I can't tell you heaps about it because that wheel is mainly used in the paddock since the Z10 is simply way too bulky to take with me. Never did any long trips on it. TBH I could as well use an Inmotion V5F for that purpose.

I heard the eggshell is preferred since you can lean easier. Definitely going to be a change for me (have it coming in next week, can't wait).

I'm at a petite 140lbs, so the Mten3 is relatively heavy for me to carry around. In that regard, I would prefer the MCM5 with the trolley.

How would you compare the torque and acceleration? I'm curious about 10" 800W vs 14" 1500W. Is the MCM5's near double power enough to make up for the leverage disadvantage?

[ir_fuel]

1 minute ago, chrisjunlee said:

How would you compare the torque and acceleration? I'm curious about 10" 800W vs 14" 1500W. Is the MCM5's near double power enough to make up for the leverage disadvantage?

Can't compare. Haven't used both on decent trips. On the road I always use my Z10. And moreover I don't launch my wheels very hard off the line, hunting max acceleration is looking for overleans. I'd rather not  , from what I felt the MCM5 is pretty zippy. A 1500W motor on a 14" wheel is quite responsive. It's also very nimble. It's a pretty impressive package but you have to watch out for your ankles. If you put your feet too close to the shell (or, as I did, you slam your "second foot" quite aggressively on the pedal after starting) it can be painful on the ankles since there is no padding. As soon as I rode without touching the shell there was no issue anymore.

But the best comparison can be done by @Marty Backe IMO.

[atdlzpae]

I think that the perfect combination for me would be:

- MSX for long distances / offroads

- Something like KS14/MTen3 or similar for local grocery store visits

Third wheel would be a waste of money. I think that these two cover like 99% of use cases.

Edited July 8, 2019 by atdlzpae

[ir_fuel]

I'm 147lbs btw.

[ir_fuel]

Just now, atdlzpae said:

I think that the perfect combination for me would be:

- MSX for long distances / offroads

- Something like KS14/MTen3 or similar for local grocery store visits

Third wheel would be a waste of money.

I would go 1 class bigger than an mten3 for local groceries. And an integrated trolley is a must when shopping imo. Would say the MCM5 but the shape makes it annoying to park in random places. Hard to put against a wall. The Mten3 is a lot easier in that regard.

[atdlzpae]

Mten3 has no handle? You're right then - KS14S seems to be the best choice then - cheap and KingSong has best handles. :-)

Edited July 8, 2019 by atdlzpae

[ir_fuel]

Well you can install an external one like on the Rockwheel GT16 but it's not really meant for one. Also I'd rather carry groceries on something more stable than a 10" wheel  

 

[chrisjunlee]

23 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

Mten3 has no handle? You're right then - KS14S seems to be the best choice then - cheap and KingSong has best handles. :-)

The mten3 is an absolute joy . But yes, lack of a trolley handle is much sadness.

If you're going for the KS14s, I would either wait for the KS14x (refresh), get the MCM5, or just go up to a KS16x.

I would get the KS16x over the MCM5 - but I don't want to wait, hence the MCM5 is coming in

 

Quote

Third wheel would be a waste of money. I think that these two cover like 99% of use cases. 

I feel ya. For me, money isn't the issue, but space is. I'm trying to aim for the elegance of low overhead minimalism.

Edited July 8, 2019 by chrisjunlee

[houseofjob]

48 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

What are your top 3 unique EUCs that are must haves? And what's your rationality behind them?

Mine in no particular order: Z10, Monster, and quite possibly the MCM5 (which I sold) if I lived in a city with perfect pavement.

The Z10, because no other EUC rides like it, the main plus is being able to manipulate the gyroscopic upright effect, and never having to step off your wheel for lights, etc., due to the wide (I can figure 8 in place very easily).

The Monster, because no other EUC rides like it, the main plus being the much larger 22" diameter negates the majority of potholes/road imperfections, and higher speeds feel much safer and natural on the Monster than smaller wheels.

The MCM5, because no other EUC rides like it, the main plus being it's ridiculous "no-effort" torque, plus it has one of the best Gotway soft modes I've ever felt. Too bad I had to sell it because a thin 2.125" doesn't cut it in swiss cheese pavement NYC.

 

48 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

1. Kingsong 16x > MCM5 (have not tried either)
   • Hope: Can handle curbs? 
   • Hope: nimbler than a 18" wheel.

Ultimately, I want to reduce redundancy. And ideally, one wheel should be able to do something that no other wheel in the list can do - aka, it's not made obsolete. 

Not sure why you have the 16X here on this "unique-ness" list, as having ridden it, I would say the tire feel / overall setup is very similar to any of the other over-45lb, 3" wide wheels (MSX, Nikola), with not enough increased torque to really night-and-day differentiate it from it's bigger comparison wheel competitors (albeit, yes there is like 10-15% more "no-effort" torque).

"Nimbleness" is wheel width alone IMHO.

And not sure what you mean by handle curbs(?) 

 

57 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

It's just a lot of work to get it cornered. I don't know if that's a plus TBH.

It's a plus to me IMHO because I can offset my body position in space, vs the wheel body position in space, to a much greater degree than all other EUC's. So since my body has more range of motion before the wheel reacts, it gives me a finer degree of control over the Z.

 

47 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

In track school, in order to perform at the limits of traction, you're trained the exact opposite - you learn to minimize lean angle with body positioning. It's necessary for a couple of reasons: 

• you would run out of lean if you leaned without counterweighing
• in high performance motorcycling, you have the most traction the more upright the wheel is (due to having full vertical suspension + tire contact patch)

Interesting.

For Z turns, yes, I very much move and maneuver my body way more than the Z actually itself leans.

 

47 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Also, I believe the effort to turn the z10 can be mitigated by countersteering. I've yet to figure out what that means in unicycle kinematics.

Not sure about mitigating effort on turning, but I definitely feel I am countersteering on Z turns, especially when I want the turn to be quicker, as I'll push my force opposite the turn before leaning in the turn angle.

I kind of fell into this countersteering intuitively, then realized I was doing so with the explanations on countersteering given on this forum.

 

46 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

Also, what are your thoughts on the mten3 vs the MCM5?

32 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

How would you compare the torque and acceleration? I'm curious about 10" 800W vs 14" 1500W. Is the MCM5's near double power enough to make up for the leverage disadvantage?

Note that this is not an apples to apples comparison. The MCM5 has the widest/biggest magnets of any EUC motor on the market, even compared to the bigger 18"+ wheels, a major reason why it has such amazing torque.

IMHO the MCM5 always felt to me that it had more torque than the MTen3, and ecodrift's reveal has proven this I think (others before were claiming the MTen3 had more torque due to the 10 vs 14 placebo effect IMO).

And when I had an MTen3, I definitely had cases where I could overpower the 800W nominal motor, whereas I never felt an occasion where I would overpower the MCM5 motor.

 

32 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I'm at a petite 140lbs, so the Mten3 is relatively heavy for me to carry around. 

When I still had an MTen3, the aftermarket trolley handle was a must IMHO

 

39 minutes ago, chrisjunlee said:

I heard the eggshell is preferred since you can lean easier.

It's more comfortable on the shins sans cushion.

[chrisjunlee]

Awesome, I was looking forward to your reply

12 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

The Monster, because no other EUC rides like it, the main plus being the much larger 22" diameter negates the majority of potholes/road imperfections, and higher speeds feel much safer and natural on the Monster than smaller wheels.

I'm surprised the extra 3" larger diameter makes a bigger difference than the z10's wider tire. I figured the z10 would be superior to the monster in terms of handling surface irregularities (width over diameter).

14 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Not sure why you have the 16X here on this "unique-ness" list, as having ridden it, I would say the tire feel / overall setup is very similar to any of the other over-45lb, 3" wide wheels (MSX, Nikola), with not enough increased torque to really night-and-day differentiate it from it's bigger comparison wheel competitors (albeit, yes there is like 10-15% more "no-effort" torque).

"Nimbleness" is wheel width alone IMHO.

And not sure what you mean by handle curbs(?) 

I was hoping the 16x would have similar torque to the MCM5 with it's extra 200W of power. Guess not.

As for handling curbs: being able to ride over curbs.

19 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

MHO the MCM5 always felt to me that it had more torque than the MTen3, and ecodrift's reveal has proven this I think (others before were claiming the MTen3 had more torque due to the 10 vs 14 placebo effect IMO).

And when I had an MTen3, I definitely had cases where I could overpower the 800W nominal motor, whereas I never felt an occasion where I would overpower the MCM5 motor.

Wow. I'm looking forward to the MCM5. Wish it came in a 3" tire version. 

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

Awesome, I was looking forward to your reply

 

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

I'm surprised the extra 3" larger diameter makes a bigger difference than the z10's wider tire. I figured the z10 would be superior to the monster in terms of handling surface irregularities (width over diameter).

Well, again, not all things are as they seem here.

The Z tire markings claim "18" inches, but I measure my [edit: unmounted spare] more like 16.5"; whereas my stock Monster tire mounted measures a true 22". 

In general, rolling over bad terrain splits into three factors IMHO: overcoming potholes / divots, which is pure diameter; comfort rolling over rough uneven terrain, which is actual tire contact width; and comfort on impact when landing from getting airborne from hitting bumps, which is actual tire contact width + tire composition.

So for overcoming divots, the 5.5" diameter disparity is significant; you simply stop worrying about hitting the smaller less deep ones riding the Monster.

And for rolling comfort and impact, the Z tire may be a true 4.1 wide, but the tire shape is significantly curved, so the true contact patch is probably closer to half that. Plus, the tire being tubeless means it is a much thicker, denser rubber consistency than a tire+tube combo, so the elasticity to absorb shocks is not nearly the bounciest (although my Z tire now has some more give to it after 1,000+ miles).

 

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

I was hoping the 16x would have similar torque to the MCM5 with it's extra 200W of power. Guess not.

Nope!

Not exactly sure why, but the weight disparity seems to matter I think. Possibly the wheel thinness/thickness as well.

(the motor power is technically +700W in favor of the KS16X, but then you have to factor the +18 lb wheel weight (thicker/heavier tire+motor), etc.)

And FWIW, the nominal EUC motor power ratings only give you a summary idea of the power of a wheel model. The dyno power vs speed curve can be shaped very differently wheel to wheel, and in the case of torque, we're probably primarily concerned how that curve looks going from 0 to 10-15mph, which there is unfortunately no data for.

 

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

As for handling curbs: being able to ride over curbs.

Ah, I see.

Riding up curbs is simply the diameter vs curb height ratio, or being skilled enough to jump it.

Riding down curbs, particularly the higher ones, I really don't recommend, especially on your MTen3, which I've heard from our rabid EUC-ist Russian rider friends, can have axle issues after 1,000's of miles logged.

 

1 hour ago, chrisjunlee said:

Wow. I'm looking forward to the MCM5. Wish it came in a 3" tire version. 

Me too! (cuz I would've kept it if that were the case!)

Edited July 9, 2019 by houseofjob

[Marty Backe]

13 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

 

Well, again, not all things are as they seem here.

The Z tire markings claim "18" inches, but I measure mine more like 16.5"; whereas my stock Monster tire measures a true 22". 

In general, rolling over bad terrain splits into three factors IMHO: overcoming potholes / divots, which is pure diameter; comfort rolling over rough uneven terrain, which is actual tire contact width; and comfort on impact when landing from getting airborne from hitting bumps, which is actual tire contact width + tire composition.

So for overcoming divots, the 5.5" diameter disparity is significant; you simply stop worrying about hitting the smaller less deep ones riding the Monster.

And for rolling comfort and impact, the Z tire may be a true 4.1 wide, but the tire shape is significantly curved, so the true contact patch is probably closer to half that. Plus, the tire being tubeless means it is a much thicker, denser rubber consistency than a tire+tube combo, so the elasticity to absorb shocks is not nearly the bounciest (although my Z tire now has some more give to it after 1,000+ miles).

 

Nope!

Not exactly sure why, but the weight disparity seems to matter I think. Possibly the wheel thinness/thickness as well.

(the motor power is technically +700W in favor of the KS16X, but then you have to factor the +18 lb wheel weight (thicker/heavier tire+motor), etc.)

And FWIW, the nominal EUC motor power ratings only give you a summary idea of the power of a wheel model. The dyno power vs speed curve can be shaped very differently wheel to wheel, and in the case of torque, we're probably primarily concerned how that curve looks going from 0 to 10-15mph, which there is unfortunately no data for.

 

Ah, I see.

Riding up curbs is simply the diameter vs curb height ratio, or being skilled enough to jump it.

Riding down curbs, particularly the higher ones, I really don't recommend, especially on your MTen3, which I've heard from our rabid EUC-ist Russian rider friends, can have axle issues after 1,000's of miles logged.

 

Me too! (cuz I would've kept it if that were the case!)

When I measured mine it was ~17-1/2 inches. Interesting. Hmmm.

[houseofjob]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

When I measured mine it was ~17-1/2 inches. Interesting. Hmmm.

TBF, I was measuring my spare tire sans motor. Maybe inflation difference(?), but the Z is definitely not an 18" like they claim.

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

TBF, I was measuring my spare tire sans motor. Maybe inflation difference(?), but the Z is definitely not an 18" like they claim.

That explains it for sure.

Actual diameters on the wheel:

• Z10: 17-1/2
• MSuper V3: 18-1/2
• KS18XL: 18-1/2
• MSX: 19-1/2

[meepmeepmayer]

43 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

That explains it for sure.

Actual diameters on the wheel:

• Z10: 17-1/2
• MSuper V3: 18-1/2
• KS18XL: 18-1/2
• MSX: 19-1/2

On the motor and fully inflated, I assume? Great! @AtlasP

What was your Nikola measurement again?

[Marty Backe]

5 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

On the motor and fully inflated, I assume? Great! @AtlasP

What was your Nikola measurement again?

I think it was something like 17-1/4

But I was only listing the 18-inch wheels

[meepmeepmayer]

Measure them all please

[who_the]

To me, "uniques" stand apart and are different from "must-haves."

Uniques:

1. IPS i5
2. MTen3
3. KS 18A/S
4. Ninebot Z10

Must-haves (any one of these three):

1. MSX
2. KS 18XL
3. Nikola

If you have only one wheel, any of the "must-haves" fill a broad set of needs and riding scenarios. Each of the "uniques," on the other hand, have distinct, unmatched personalities and riding characteristics unlike anything else on the market. And each have their own flaws as well, some fatal.

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, who_the said:

To me, "uniques" stand apart and are different from "must-haves."

Uniques:

1. IPS i5
2. MTen3
3. KS 18A/S
4. Ninebot Z10

Must-haves (any one of these three):

1. MSX
2. KS 18XL
3. Nikola

If you have only one wheel, any of the "must-haves" fill a broad set of needs and riding scenarios. Each of the "uniques," on the other hand, have distinct, unmatched personalities and riding characteristics unlike anything else on the market. And each have their own flaws as well, some fatal.