segway [Segway Online-Shop] Z10 available

[houseofjob]

19 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

 Well I grew up skiing and was quite advanced.   I always had the highest end and most expensive skis every year but I never had anything to say to a novice that would make them think twice about owning the same pair of skis.  However rereading some of your posts I think I know. Thanks man 

Ah! Then you have a leg up I think, compared to others, once you start imparting that ski knowledge over to EUC (with the obvious differences like feet not bound, etc.).

[Patton250]

14 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Ah! Then you have a leg up I think, compared to others, once you start imparting that ski knowledge over to EUC (with the obvious differences like feet not bound, etc.).

 I saw your video review on the z10 from a year ago just now. Very interesting.  You said and it does seem with such a fat tire it would be easier for a beginner to learn on a wheel like this one. I learned on a KS16S.  That thing has many scars on it. LOL 

 So it seems you definitely bought one since then. Did they fix all the things you talked about that you didn’t like on the production model? 

 I would like to know why this thing is not available in distribution in the United States.  I know you can get one but it’s not as easy as getting a KS or GW.  I believe I heard somewhere there are some legal things going on and that’s why Segway is not selling them.  Because Segway is selling them in Europe on their website. 

Anyway I enjoyed your review very much. Thanks. 

[ir_fuel]

It's true. The machine only wants to go in a straight line. It's especially noticeable on roundabouts. You really have to commit, hang and have confidence (long live grip tape on those pedals) to arc it in a smooth corner at a decent speed around a roundabout. This is heaps easier with any other wheel out there.

On the flip side, once you ride it regularly any other wheel you hop on will feel unstable for the first couple of minutes  

[Rotciv]

56 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

 I saw your video review on the z10 from a year ago just now. Very interesting.  You said and it does seem with such a fat tire it would be easier for a beginner to learn on a wheel like this one. I learned on a KS16S.  That thing has many scars on it. LOL 

 So it seems you definitely bought one since then. Did they fix all the things you talked about that you didn’t like on the production model? 

 I would like to know why this thing is not available in distribution in the United States.  I know you can get one but it’s not as easy as getting a KS or GW.  I believe I heard somewhere there are some legal things going on and that’s why Segway is not selling them.  Because Segway is selling them in Europe on their website. 

Anyway I enjoyed your review very much. Thanks. 

When you get on the Z10, your first impression will be that this wheel just doesn't want to turn. You will also feel that slowing down while going downhill is very weak and going across an incline is a struggle. Those are just new things that you have to relearn with the Z since you're coming from a KS16S. Once you've become familiar with the Z's riding dynamics, you will not realized how effortlessly it is to ride until you go back to your KS16S.

Here's @RoberAce showing how Z riders perform high speed turns:

I personally think Ninebot will eventually bring the One Z to the US but not through independent dealers. They're playing it safe, US has strong consumer protection laws with very vocal consumers that have access to lawyers. There might be certifications that Ninebot would like to meet, UL and CE might be some of them. Since they just release the One Z in EU, they might have received CE certification.

[Patton250]

11 minutes ago, Rotciv said:

When you get on the Z10, your first impression will be that this wheel just doesn't want to turn. You will also feel that slowing down while going downhill is very weak and going across an incline is a struggle. Those are just new things that you have to relearn with the Z since you're coming from a KS16S. Once you've become familiar with the Z's riding dynamics, you will not realized how effortlessly it is to ride until you go back to your KS16S.

Here's @RoberAce showing how Z riders perform high speed turns:

I personally think Ninebot will eventually bring the One Z to the US but not through independent dealers. They're playing it safe, US has strong consumer protection laws with very vocal consumers that have access to lawyers. There might be certifications that Ninebot would like to meet, UL and CE might be some of them. Since they just release the One Z in EU, they might have received CE certification.

Wow man thanks so much. Very informative. I watch that video later.

[ir_fuel]

19 minutes ago, Rotciv said:

You will also feel that slowing down while going downhill is very weak

I've read that here before but tbh I never noticed this while riding.

[Marty Backe]

38 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

I've read that here before but tbh I never noticed this while riding.

I don't either. But try going down a super steep hill sometime 

[ir_fuel]

11 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't either. But try going down a super steep hill sometime 

I did. Multiple times already.

This one has seriously steep parts. Never had any issues. Just lean back and if you want to brake more lean back more  

[Marty Backe]

31 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

I did. Multiple times already.

This one has seriously steep parts. Never had any issues. Just lean back and if you want to brake more lean back more  

It's difficult for me to judge steepness from a chart. Is this the kind of hill where you almost don't have enough power to go up?

[ir_fuel]

I certainly do not have enough power to ride it up with a normal bicycle  

I have to lean pretty hard to drive up yes. I don't dare going faster than 8-10mph uphill there because I am afraid of overpowering the wheel.

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, ir_fuel said:

I certainly do not have enough power to ride it up with a normal bicycle  

I have to lean pretty hard to drive up yes. I don't dare going faster than 8-10mph uphill there because I am afraid of overpowering the wheel.

BTW, one last question. How much do you weight?

It's just that you are the only person that I recollect saying that the Z10 has great torque. There's a noticeable difference in power from my Z10 and other wheels.

[ir_fuel]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

BTW, one last question. How much do you weight?

67.5 kg on the bathroom scale in the morning  

 

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

It's just that you are the only person that I recollect saying that the Z10 has great torque.

I didn't say "it has great torque". I just never experienced a lack of braking power on steep downhills.

 

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

There's a noticeable difference in power from my Z10 and other wheels.

That's possible. I can only compare to:

- Inmotion V8

- Rockwheel GT16

MCM5 is a completely different beast so no comparison there.

 

I have not had any other 16/18" wheels to compare to. Quite possible that an MSX / KS18.. is better.

 

 

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, ir_fuel said:

67.5 kg on the bathroom scale in the morning  

 

I didn't say "it has great torque". I just never experienced a lack of braking power on steep downhills.

 

That's possible. I can only compare to:

- Inmotion V8

- Rockwheel GT16

MCM5 is a completely different beast so no comparison there.

 

I have not had any other 16/18" wheels to compare to. Quite possible that an MSX / KS18.. is better.

 

 

Ok, you are on the lighter side (30-pounds less than me) which certainly helps. I can say with certainty that the Z10 is less comfortable going down steep inclines than my MSuper V3s+, KS18XL, MSX, ACMs, Nikola, etc. The only wheel that is worse is the Monster.

However, if it works great for your situations, that's all that really matters for you, right 

[Patton250]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Ok, you are on the lighter side (30-pounds less than me) which certainly helps. I can say with certainty that the Z10 is less comfortable going down steep inclines than my MSuper V3s+, KS18XL, MSX, ACMs, Nikola, etc. The only wheel that is worse is the Monster.

However, if it works great for your situations, that's all that really matters for you, right 

 I still think you are making this wheel sound terrible. Holy moly. Lol

[Marty Backe]

17 minutes ago, Patton250 said:

 I still think you are making this wheel sound terrible. Holy moly. Lol

I'm talking about incredibly steep hills. 99-percent of the time I never climb or descend these hills. It's doubtful that you will either.

These are hills that no car could climb. Does that help put it in perspective.

Yes, in my opinion the Z10 is a horrible wheel for mountain riding compared to the other choices out there.

[Patton250]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm talking about incredibly steep hills. 99-percent of the time I never climb or descend these hills. It's doubtful that you will either.

These are hills that no car could climb. Does that help put it in perspective.

Yes, in my opinion the Z10 is a horrible wheel for mountain riding compared to the other choices out there.

I’m just teasing you anyway. And as you point out in many of your videos there is no perfect wheel.  You are correct there are no hills where I live. Although two weeks ago I was in the mountains of Georgia and had the KS18XL and KS16S  and they did great going up and down very steep hills. 

[ir_fuel]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

These are hills that no car could climb. Does that help put it in perspective.

You are talking off road then I guess? I only ride on paved roads, and since they are paved cars obviously climb them  

[houseofjob]

6 hours ago, Patton250 said:

Anyway I enjoyed your review very much. Thanks. 

Thanks!

6 hours ago, Patton250 said:

So it seems you definitely bought one since then. Did they fix all the things you talked about that you didn’t like on the production model? 

Not sure which dislikes these were, but the braking power is definitely still sacrificed for the better forward torque (though not to the degree some would have you believe, as I'm convinced those people are not braking the smart way, broken up in successive, alternating foot braking, combined with s-curves to increase stopping distance. I don't believe in "hard braking" in general, as using the aforementioned techniques there is barely any scenarios on an EUC where you can't turn on a dime and brake, unless you are riding carelessly).

And the pedal size or mode responses sure haven't changed since then either (I believe only 2 board firmwares have rolled out since then).

6 hours ago, Patton250 said:

 I would like to know why this thing is not available in distribution in the United States.  I know you can get one but it’s not as easy as getting a KS or GW.  I believe I heard somewhere there are some legal things going on and that’s why Segway is not selling them.  Because Segway is selling them in Europe on their website. 

6 words: Shane Chen the Inventist patent troll

BTW, KS and Gotway are only easy to get here in the US because of the middle man independent distributors who have opened up shop in the US. This wasn't always the case.

 

5 hours ago, Rotciv said:

I personally think Ninebot will eventually bring the One Z to the US but not through independent dealers. They're playing it safe, US has strong consumer protection laws with very vocal consumers that have access to lawyers. There might be certifications that Ninebot would like to meet, UL and CE might be some of them. Since they just release the One Z in EU, they might have received CE certification.

Really doubt the Z will ever get a proper release here in the US (as much as I love the Z product). Just because you don't hear about the Inventist-Segway/Ninebot ongoing counter-patent lawsuits, doesn't mean it isn't still very much going on.

And apparently the EU release link is a third party distributor who has access to the Segway branding/url according to @Retrovertigo as mentioned above.

And if the hoverboard boom/bust has proven, there are easy workarounds to selling product without certifications in the US, so why would a company go out of their way to obtain such expensive certifications? In Europe, the requirements are much more stringent, tied to the import of the product altogether I believe.

[Chriull]

27 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

but the braking power is definitely still sacrificed for the better forward torque 

Sorry - how could/does this work out?

Afai read here in the posts braking just regenerates one battery back instead of both - so much potential is wasted.

I could'nt see any correlation with forward torque? 

[houseofjob]

8 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Sorry - how could/does this work out?

Afai read here in the posts braking just regenerates one battery back instead of both - so much potential is wasted.

I could'nt see any correlation with forward torque? 

Ah, no I meant one of the early firmwares seemed to increase the forward torque, but then the backwards braking seemed softer on that same firmware change.

Could be independent phenomena, but I assumed maybe the harder forward power meant they couldn't equally make the braking power just as hard due to regen stress(?) Dunno.

Either way, we never got back the slight better braking from one of the original Z firmwares I think.

Edited July 8, 2019 by houseofjob

[TuN3M@N]

Don't understand this torque discussion... Sorry but it is only a question of skill. The only limiting thing is traction. Last week we were going for some rides with friends with EUC and also eMTB, neither the eMTB nor an MSX is able to follow the Z10 especially at steep lawn ascents. 

All of them have by far enough power to go up these hills, but for the bikes it is limited by geometrie, for the K18 or MSX it is simply traction.

But every time someone is not skillful enough it is so simple to say these or these wheels are bad... Funny behaviour. 

[Patton250]

22 minutes ago, TuN3M@N said:

Don't understand this torque discussion... Sorry but it is only a question of skill. The only limiting thing is traction. Last week we were going for some rides with friends with EUC and also eMTB, neither the eMTB nor an MSX is able to follow the Z10 especially at steep lawn ascents. 

All of them have by far enough power to go up these hills, but for the bikes it is limited by geometrie, for the K18 or MSX it is simply traction.

But every time someone is not skillful enough it is so simple to say these or these wheels are bad... Funny behaviour. 

Well.....  I knew sooner or later someone would come in a make a comment like this.  To be honest your comment really doesn’t make sense to me. It would if we were discussing going backwards or riding with one leg straight out going in circles like some of the EUC acrobats do.  But we are just discussing the feeling of torque/power going up a hill or even on a flat surface. I’m not really sure what skill has to do with that. I’m open for correction though. :-) 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Patton250

[Patton250]

4 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Thanks!

Not sure which dislikes these were, but the braking power is definitely still sacrificed for the better forward torque (though not to the degree some would have you believe, as I'm convinced those people are not braking the smart way, broken up in successive, alternating foot braking, combined with s-curves to increase stopping distance. I don't believe in "hard braking" in general, as using the aforementioned techniques there is barely any scenarios on an EUC where you can't turn on a dime and brake, unless you are riding carelessly).

And the pedal size or mode responses sure haven't changed since then either (I believe only 2 board firmwares have rolled out since then).

6 words: Shane Chen the Inventist patent troll

BTW, KS and Gotway are only easy to get here in the US because of the middle man independent distributors who have opened up shop in the US. This wasn't always the case.

 

Really doubt the Z will ever get a proper release here in the US (as much as I love the Z product). Just because you don't hear about the Inventist-Segway/Ninebot ongoing counter-patent lawsuits, doesn't mean it isn't still very much going on.

And apparently the EU release link is a third party distributor who has access to the Segway branding/url according to @Retrovertigo as mentioned above.

And if the hoverboard boom/bust has proven, there are easy workarounds to selling product without certifications in the US, so why would a company go out of their way to obtain such expensive certifications? In Europe, the requirements are much more stringent, tied to the import of the product altogether I believe.

 That’s funny I thought the certifications were more stringent in the United States 

 

 Thanks for your comments by the way. Interesting stuff. 

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

 That’s funny I thought the certifications were more stringent in the United States 

AFAIK, everything is more stringent in the EU.

1 hour ago, Patton250 said:

 Thanks for your comments by the way. Interesting stuff. 

Sure~

1 hour ago, TuN3M@N said:

Don't understand this torque discussion... Sorry but it is only a question of skill. The only limiting thing is traction. Last week we were going for some rides with friends with EUC and also eMTB, neither the eMTB nor an MSX is able to follow the Z10 especially at steep lawn ascents. 

All of them have by far enough power to go up these hills, but for the bikes it is limited by geometrie, for the K18 or MSX it is simply traction.

But every time someone is not skillful enough it is so simple to say these or these wheels are bad... Funny behaviour. 

I know what you are saying, which is why I always say "no effort" torque now.

Sure, if you lean hard enough, there is torque/power in spades, even with the supposedly "low torque" Monster (which I know for a fact I can sit on the Monster nose and unleash a helluva lot of torque acceleration).

But I'm pretty sure when riders mention of "torque", they really mean "torque with little effort/force".

 

Edited July 9, 2019 by houseofjob

[TuN3M@N]

@houseofjobYou are completely right with this "no effort" torque.

But most people make the wrong connection in their heads that the wheel at all has no torque. But this is only how much torque is given to the rider by the software at a specified lean angle. Nothing to do with overall power. 

Same it is with braking and also the cause is the same. 

@Patton250The "Trick" for the Z Series is to push the wheel forward with the inside of the legs, for braking pull it back the same way. If you do it with your feet only there is not enough torque for even braking/accelerating steep climbs. 

Doing it this way you are able to climb ascents no other wheel at the moment will do, based on the traction.

And yes at the end of the day using the right technic is a question of skill. 

And as you said, it is the same for backwards or one leg riding, but backwards took more time for me than it was for climbing. Backwards you have to train your brain/sense... For climbing it is a simple technic.