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KS18XL platforms "readjusting" in ride


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Going back a little over a month ago I started getting some strange behavior with my wheel.  When cruising along, I'll feel the platforms get soft suddenly.  It only lasts for a second or two, and if feels like they're adjusting under my feet.  I call it "fluttering".  I can feel the tilt moving, usually back and forth, and quickly.  I first noticed it pretty soon after upgrading to v1.12, but I don't know if that's coincidence or not.  I also calibrated it at that time, and I've since (a couple of days ago) upgraded to v1.13.  The behavior continues to happen.  It is an unsettling feeling, and really alarming when it first started happening, but I'd sort of gotten used to it.  I can't pin it down to any specific type of terrain or conditions. Sometimes its on flat, sometimes during moderate climbing or descending.  It used to seem to be at higher speeds (15mph+), but lately I'm seeing it at much slower speeds also.  It's been increasing in frequency over time.  I can sometimes ride 10 miles without it happening, then it might happen several times over 5 miles.

This leads me to another problem I experienced yesterday, I don't know it is is related.  I was riding in a bike lane, probably around 12-15mph.  It was good conditions, level ground, good surface.  I had been slowing for a light, but it changed.  As best as I can recall I was starting to accelerate, but only gently.  Suddenly I went down.  I have no idea what happened.  I don't recall that "fluttering" feeling that I'm used to, this was different.  There were two EUC riders and biker behind me.  They didn't see anything unusual either and they wondered what happened.  They said I just appeared to do gown for now reason.  There was metal manhole cover near where I went down, but it was flush and I can't see how it would have been problem.  About 15 of us rode past/over it.
 
I'm fine, a bit banged up and have one scraped knee (I was wearing head, wrist and elbow protection, but not knees.  Note to self).  My biggest concern is what the hell happened, and it is related to the other issue I've been noticing?  I rode another 10-15 miles to get home after the crash and the frequency of the platform fluttering seemed to increase.  I'd estimate it happened maybe 20 times over 30ish miles today, the majority after my fall. 
 
I'm inquiring with eWheels, but I wanted to put this out there to see if anyone else has experienced anything similar with their platforms adjusting fluttering mid-ride?

 

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Can please re-calibrate your wheel using app and then see if in change the behavior ? Very important is to first start calibration with the wheel perfectly stable, and in vertical position (left/right, front/rear)...

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34 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said:

Can please re-calibrate your wheel using app and then see if in change the behavior ? Very important is to first start calibration with the wheel perfectly stable, and in vertical position (left/right, front/rear)...

I'm not sure if calibration could be the culprit for this kind of issue, but I intend to give a a try.  Last time I re-calibrated it it in the EUC stand, so it should have been pretty good.

 
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5 minutes ago, US69 said:

I hope you are OK and get well soon.

From what you desribe i understand that from time to time your Wheel gets "weak pedal" and These are going a bit Forward or backward?

Also the "sudden cut out", Points into someting really wrong on your Wheel. My tip would be that it is something with the batterys not beeing OK, as "weak pedals" and sudden cut out Point to a "to less" current Problem...… What also is possible is that one of the big caps has a burned wire or is defect. This would also lead to same Symptoms.

I can only advise to contact ewheels and have the Wheel checked. Something is wrong, board/caps or battery and this failure wont go away from alone.

Dont ride it anymore!!!

Sorry for the Problems......

Thanks.  I suspect something like that as well, though I may try re-calibrating (as per above) and some gentle riding (in full armor) on the off-chance that might help.  I'm also in touch with Jason at eWheels about replacing the motherboard.

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3 minutes ago, JBinBalt said:

Thanks.  I suspect something like that as well, though I may try re-calibrating (as per above) and some gentle riding (in full armor) on the off-chance that might help.  I'm also in touch with Jason at eWheels about replacing the motherboard.

Those symptons really dont Point to recalibration, especially not the sudden cut-off. So beware and pay Attention, please.

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To me it sounds more like failing capacitors than batteries, but could be either, or something else... never experienced a cap failure with a wheel, but I'd imagine the big capacitors on the board are pretty important for the high current spikes, especially during acceleration.

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3 minutes ago, esaj said:

To me it sounds more like failing capacitors than batteries, but could be either, or something else... never experienced a cap failure with a wheel, but I'd imagine the big capacitors on the board are pretty important for the high current spikes, especially during acceleration.

Could be this. But I would also check if the battery is ok.

Two weeks ago I had a bad accident causing stitches on my face and chipped teeth. I was riding an old KS16S kindly loaned to me by @mrelwood when my 18XL was broken. On a group ride we noticed it had considerably less range than another 16S. It probably has a bad cell. One time after some acceleration the pedals went first soft and then cut out completely. It’s probably different issue because I didn’t notice softness before that. I’m not sure if the cause has been confirmed but seems like faulty battery can cause similar behavior. 

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4 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Could be this. But I would also check if the battery is ok.

Two weeks ago I had a bad accident causing stitches on my face and chipped teeth. I was riding an old KS16S kindly loaned to me by @mrelwood when my 18XL was broken. On a group ride we noticed it had considerably less range than another 16S. It probably has a bad cell. One time after some acceleration the pedals went first soft and then cut out completely. It’s probably different issue because I didn’t notice softness before that. I’m not sure if the cause has been confirmed but seems like faulty battery can cause similar behavior. 

I'm not ruling anything out.  However, as far as batteries go, I've got about 800 miles on this wheel, so they're fairly new.  Range has been as expected, so I've not noticed any other symptoms that appear battery related. 

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I've noticed the same behavior from my KS18XL occasionally but was trying to see if I could relate it to how I was riding it at the time. So far no theories, but the fact that you just brought it up makes me think something else may be going on. Hopefully others will chime in. I haven't experienced a full cut-out but the "fluttering" pedal feeling is quite disconcerting at any speed over 12mph.

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@JBinBalt I'm hearing the battery stuff, and I agree that they are a potential, but less likely culprit than the motherboard. True, new batteries can be manufactured with bad cells, but I haven't seen this issue as much with new batteries like yours (sub 1k); perhaps others have.

I have seen many more examples of premature failure on new motherboard components than I have on new batteries. Not wise to rule anything out, but I would start at the most likely place; the motherboard. 

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17 minutes ago, Lueksparky said:

I've noticed the same behavior from my KS18XL occasionally but was trying to see if I could relate it to how I was riding it at the time. So far no theories, but the fact that you just brought it up makes me think something else may be going on. Hopefully others will chime in. I haven't experienced a full cut-out but the "fluttering" pedal feeling is quite disconcerting at any speed over 12mph.

I know of one other rider in the DC area who is experiencing something like I have, but so far not as frequently.  I had kind of gotten used to it and was ignoring it.  Maybe I shouldn't have.

Edited by JBinBalt
mispelling
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JBinBalt: sometimes I feel like pedals moving position under me (to be more exact...it's making very slow tilt back) ....it's happening at slow speeds after acceleration.
These are getting more frequent while my total mileage increase and experience...I have firmware version 1.12

(i always wear knee, elbow, helmet...)

is this behavior what you experience ?

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On 7/3/2019 at 3:21 AM, Meserias said:

JBinBalt: sometimes I feel like pedals moving position under me (to be more exact...it's making very slow tilt back) ....it's happening at slow speeds after acceleration.
These are getting more frequent while my total mileage increase and experience...I have firmware version 1.12

(i always wear knee, elbow, helmet...)

is this behavior what you experience ?

This sounds very similar.   In my case it happens very quickly (lasts a second or two) and it often tilts forward, back or both.  It is a very unsettling feeling and happens suddenly.  For me, at first it happened infrequently and mostly at higher speeds, but it increased in frequency and started happening at all speeds.  Recently, it might happen several times over a few miles.  this is my third wheel and I'm a reasonably experienced rider, so I don't feel like my riding style had much to do with the issue.  I'm estimating I had around 250-300 miles on this wheel before I noticed the issue the first time, it was around 700 miles when we pulled the board yesterday.

I received my new motherboard and installed it yesterday.  I've not ridden much yet, but I'll get in a few miles in today and tomorrow I'm doing the Glydiators "Bye Bye Blackbyrd" ride in Washington, D.C.  that's going to be close to 60 miles, so it should be a good test and I'll report back. 

While we had it apart yesterday my friends and I also took the opportunity to do a vinyl wrap.  Very happy with how that turned out. Many thanks to Lutalo and Neil (Yanex) for their help on MB swap and the wrap.  Those guys know their way around the inside of a KingSong!

 

18XL-Satin-Gray-cropped.jpg

 

Shameless plug for Glydiators.... We ride almost every weekend, all are welcome.  Anyone in the DC area or visiting please hook up with us.  ESK8'rs and OneWheels and also PEV's also welcome!

 

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On 7/3/2019 at 3:21 AM, Meserias said:

JBinBalt: sometimes I feel like pedals moving position under me (to be more exact...it's making very slow tilt back) ....it's happening at slow speeds after acceleration.
These are getting more frequent while my total mileage increase and experience...I have firmware version 1.12

(i always wear knee, elbow, helmet...)

is this behavior what you experience ?

I forgot to add...  I was on 1.12 when I first noticed it.  It continued happening with 1.13.

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7 minutes ago, JBinBalt said:

I swapped my motherboard on July 4th. ... Unfortunately the issue has not gone away. 

 

On 7/1/2019 at 11:57 AM, pico said:

Hall sensors? Wiring to the sensors? 

Even more probable now...  Very few, if any possibility left...  @esaj,  @Chriull  ?

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23 minutes ago, pico said:

Even more probable now...  Very few, if any possibility left...  @esaj,  @Chriull  ?

Yeah, can't be the board if it still occurs after replacement, so either motor- or battery-related. @JBinBalt: Can you convince Lutalo to switch packs between your and his wheel, if it still occurs with known-working battery packs, then it's definitely either the hall sensors or the motor itself. And if not, then it's the batteries (or at least one of them). Of course it's a bit of a hassle taking apart the wheels and switching the packs...

Edited by esaj
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6 hours ago, esaj said:

Yeah, can't be the board if it still occurs after replacement, so either motor- or battery-related. @JBinBalt: Can you convince Lutalo to switch packs between your and his wheel, if it still occurs with known-working battery packs, then it's definitely either the hall sensors or the motor itself. And if not, then it's the batteries (or at least one of them). Of course it's a bit of a hassle taking apart the wheels and switching the packs...

I agree.  I hope not to have to ask that of @Lutalo  I'll first wait to see what eWheels has to say.  My wheel is still under warranty, so perhaps I'll ship it back for them to look at, or they will ship us more parts to try.  Yes, as I recently learned with the motherboard, the tear down is a hassle, but it may save me time without the wheel.  They need to find a better way to mount the padding on the wheel (aside from adhesive or double sided tape) in order to make the internals more accessible! 

In addition to myself, @Meserias and @Lueksparky both reported similar issues further above in this thread, and I know one other DC area rider who is reporting similar issues as mine, though less frequently so far.  Mine started very sporadically, but have increased in frequency.  There may be a larger issue going on here.

More as I have it...

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35 minutes ago, JBinBalt said:

I agree.  I hope not to have to ask that of @Lutalo  I'll first wait to see what eWheels has to say.  My wheel is still under warranty, so perhaps I'll ship it back for them to look at, or they will ship us more parts to try.  Yes, as I recently learned with the motherboard, the tear down is a hassle, but it may save me time without the wheel.  They need to find a better way to mount the padding on the wheel (aside from adhesive or double sided tape) in order to make the internals more accessible! 

In addition to myself, @Meserias and @Lueksparky both reported similar issues further above in this thread, and I know one other DC area rider who is reporting similar issues as mine, though less frequently so far.  Mine started very sporadically, but have increased in frequency.  There may be a larger issue going on here.

More as I have it...

I think @esaj makes a good suggestion. During  the course of riding your wheel for many miles, I felt the hesitation/vibration many times; it’s definitely unsettling and happening way too frequently at this point. After riding it I lean toward bad hall sensor, but I see no reason to rule out battery and process of elimination is best. If we switch packs we could whittle the problem down even more; either identify batteries as a problem, or remove them from the equation. Wouldn’t be a hassle at all. 

The main challenge for us is having the time during the week to meet up, swap the batteries, and go for a long enough ride together to ascertain and verify behavior. PM me to let me know what possibilities exist for you.

Edited by Lutalo
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On 7/1/2019 at 10:05 PM, JBinBalt said:

Going back a little over a month ago I started getting some strange behavior with my wheel.  When cruising along, I'll feel the platforms get soft suddenly.  It only lasts for a second or two, and if feels like they're adjusting under my feet.  I call it "fluttering".  I can feel the tilt moving, usually back and forth, and quickly.  I first noticed it pretty soon after upgrading to v1.12, but I don't know if that's coincidence or not.  I also calibrated it at that time, and I've since (a couple of days ago) upgraded to v1.13.  The behavior continues to happen.  It is an unsettling feeling, and really alarming when it first started happening, but I'd sort of gotten used to it.  I can't pin it down to any specific type of terrain or conditions. Sometimes its on flat, sometimes during moderate climbing or descending.  It used to seem to be at higher speeds (15mph+), but lately I'm seeing it at much slower speeds also.  It's been increasing in frequency over time.  I can sometimes ride 10 miles without it happening, then it might happen several times over 5 miles.

This leads me to another problem I experienced yesterday, I don't know it is is related.  I was riding in a bike lane, probably around 12-15mph.  It was good conditions, level ground, good surface.  I had been slowing for a light, but it changed.  As best as I can recall I was starting to accelerate, but only gently.  Suddenly I went down.  I have no idea what happened.  I don't recall that "fluttering" feeling that I'm used to, this was different.  There were two EUC riders and biker behind me.  They didn't see anything unusual either and they wondered what happened.  They said I just appeared to do gown for now reason.  There was metal manhole cover near where I went down, but it was flush and I can't see how it would have been problem.  About 15 of us rode past/over it.
 
I'm fine, a bit banged up and have one scraped knee (I was wearing head, wrist and elbow protection, but not knees.  Note to self).  My biggest concern is what the hell happened, and it is related to the other issue I've been noticing?  I rode another 10-15 miles to get home after the crash and the frequency of the platform fluttering seemed to increase.  I'd estimate it happened maybe 20 times over 30ish miles today, the majority after my fall. 
 
I'm inquiring with eWheels, but I wanted to put this out there to see if anyone else has experienced anything similar with their platforms adjusting fluttering mid-ride?

 

V1.13 just optimizing the riding experience, increasing strong feeling of accelerating.

As you said it happened 20 times over 30ish miles, can u share a short video to us to check?

Previously, i got this video, rider claimed that it was cut off. When i slowed down the video(0.1 playing speed of normal video speed)

1. wanted to turn left around around 35 degree

2. left foot was pushing too much on left pedal, while right foot and pedal is normal

3. left pedal and right pedal didn't dip forward from this video

4. the headlight is on,

I guess the rider should be losing balance during passing this hole, and i also show this video to our tester, he also agree with me.

Since i didn't experience cut off or motor losing power, i rode 20km per week not too long.

image.png.27fc86f7370613e3824c8a09056cf263.pngimage.png.c6467c4c1a99eb193f9acf87bce184c8.pngimage.png.9fab07a6934b39eeab4cc0c4dc5b3c59.pngimage.png.ce6073d6eca600db851dbd63c86a5432.pngimage.png.f05f5b2c0ef91f96c0e0a2568b2d9d99.pngimage.png.23dde0d51894afbc794333aa21987357.png

Edited by Micheal Shen
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9 hours ago, Micheal Shen said:

V1.13 just optimizing the riding experience, increasing strong feeling of accelerating.

As you said it happened 20 times over 30ish miles, can u share a short video to us to check?

Previously, i got this video, rider claimed that it was cut off. When i slowed down the video(0.1 playing speed of normal video speed)

1. wanted to turn left around around 35 degree

2. left foot was pushing too much on left pedal, while right foot and pedal is normal

3. left pedal and right pedal didn't dip forward from this video

4. the headlight is on,

I guess the rider should be losing balance during passing this hole, and i also show this video to our tester, he also agree with me.

Since i didn't experience cut off or motor losing power, i rode 20km per week not too long.

image.png.27fc86f7370613e3824c8a09056cf263.pngimage.png.c6467c4c1a99eb193f9acf87bce184c8.pngimage.png.9fab07a6934b39eeab4cc0c4dc5b3c59.pngimage.png.ce6073d6eca600db851dbd63c86a5432.pngimage.png.f05f5b2c0ef91f96c0e0a2568b2d9d99.pngimage.png.23dde0d51894afbc794333aa21987357.png

Other than this video. It would be very difficult to show, because the malfunction is not visible to onlookers. I rode this wheel for about 20 miles last week. Each time the mild cutout happened during my substantial time with the wheel, I had to vocally report it because it was not a visible occurrence; nor, was it predictable which makes it difficult to video.  I'm sure that I vocalized a report, during my time with the wheel at least 15 times. 

This issue existed before the faceplant shown, and changing the controlboard did not solve the problem; it still exhibits the same behavior that apparently led to the FP.

Unless he somehow was unlucky enough to receive two consecutive faulty controlboards I would think that the current behavior eliminates controlboard as the culprit. 

It's debatable in my opinion whether or not the pothole caused the fall; it's possible. If this is the case, then I am relieved because it means that his wheel didn't finally give out and throw him on his face. If the pothole caused the fall as you assert, then we may be able to deprioritize catastrophic faceplant as an inevitability; although, I wouldn't tempt fate on this. 

1. I can verify that the hesitation/vibration that has been reported for this unit is a real occurrence

2. It's abnormal

3. It's unsettling

4. It's dangerous 

5. It needs to be addressed asap. 

Edited by Lutalo
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21 hours ago, Micheal Shen said:

V1.13 just optimizing the riding experience, increasing strong feeling of accelerating.

As you said it happened 20 times over 30ish miles, can u share a short video to us to check?

Previously, i got this video, rider claimed that it was cut off. When i slowed down the video(0.1 playing speed of normal video speed)

1. wanted to turn left around around 35 degree

2. left foot was pushing too much on left pedal, while right foot and pedal is normal

3. left pedal and right pedal didn't dip forward from this video

4. the headlight is on,

I guess the rider should be losing balance during passing this hole, and i also show this video to our tester, he also agree with me.

Since i didn't experience cut off or motor losing power, i rode 20km per week not too long.

image.png.27fc86f7370613e3824c8a09056cf263.pngimage.png.c6467c4c1a99eb193f9acf87bce184c8.pngimage.png.9fab07a6934b39eeab4cc0c4dc5b3c59.pngimage.png.ce6073d6eca600db851dbd63c86a5432.pngimage.png.f05f5b2c0ef91f96c0e0a2568b2d9d99.pngimage.png.23dde0d51894afbc794333aa21987357.png

That's me in the video.   There are a couple of things I'd like to mention.  While I definitely have a problem with my wheel, it's never totally cut out on me, other than possibly this time in the video.  When I reported my issue to eWheels I told Jason that I wasn't sure if this was related to my ongoing issues or not.  By this time I'd sort of gotten used to the "wobble" as @Lutalo calls it, or "fluttering" as I've termed it.  Neither of my Solowheels has ever done anything like it, and my XL never did it for the first 45 days or so that I owned it.  It then started doing it occasionally.  It really scared me the first few times.  I started to get used to it, and began to have confidence that it would recover when it did this.  It started to do it with more frequency, and I started to think that maybe this was normal and that the wheel was somehow "re-leveling" it self periodically in the course of riding.  

This incident above, which I still think was a cut-out or failure of some sort, caused me to re-evaluate everything, thus the call to eWheels and the new motherboard.  After installing and calibrating, I had the first instance of the problem within my first mile or so of riding, which was disappointing because I really believe the motherboard would fix it.  At that point I really started to wonder if this was all "normal" wheel behavior and if I was making a big deal out of nothing.  This gave me the idea of swapping rides with Lutalo.  As I'm sure he'll attest, he rode my wheel for at least 15 miles, but spotted the first problem within the first 50 yards.  He said something like "Whoa, what is that?  That's not normal.  You need to send this thing back".  Meanwhile, I had the smoothest 15 miles I'd ridden in a while on his wheel.  Something is definitely wrong with my wheel.

As to the video, I'm really trying not to be defensive.  However... I've got somewhere north of 3000 miles of riding between my three wheels, which would take me more than half way across the United States.  I had over 500 miles on my XL when this happened. I know my 3K is not much compared to many on this forum, but I don't just fall off of my wheel on terrain like that, even with a dip or small hole in the road.  I still fall, but not from stuff like this.

I was confused by what happened at the time.  I thought maybe I struck an object, and you can hear me say that in the video.  Yes, I also noticed the behavior in my left foot.  Probably no one has reviewed this video more than I have.  I've slowed it down, taken screen shots, etc.  Whatever is going on there, I believe I was just trying to react to whatever the wheel was doing or not doing, which is also influenced by the terrain.  If I was pressing too hard on the left pedal then why was my left foot the first one to come off?  Given the problems why wheel has been exhibiting, I don't think you can make judgments about what it is doing just by looking at the lights.

We can analyze this to the end of time, but I was on the wheel and no one else was.  I maintain it was the wheel.  Even if I'm wrong, I've already said that this was a one-time occurrence, but that the other problem I've been having has been frequent and ongoing.  @Lutalo, who owns at least four King Song wheels and has several more years and many more miles of riding experience than I do has validated that something is wrong with my wheel.

You're in China, and you mention "our tester", so I assume you work for King Song?  I'm not sure why you're questioning me on a public forum rather than contacting me directly or at least engaging me through your US distributor.  Whatever the case, we're in this now, so if you represent King Song, what can be done here?  I know one other rider in DC, also an experienced rider and very skilled (more than me), who is reporting this issue with his wheel. Also take a look at the comments in this thread from @Lueksparky and @Meserias.  They are also reporting similar issues to mine.  Something is going on here, it's not just me.

I look forward to your response, and to find out how King Song is going to help me and other with this problem.

 

Edited by JBinBalt
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pothole.png.ea072247be6bde79d63711191cd64e2c.png

trying to avoid pothole seen in "A" you lean hard to right....however you could not avoid it and you fall in to it ....then you don't have enough power (to be read as: you don't lean forward enough) to exit from it...and you fall.

this is how I see it...
please don't blame me.

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