Best way to start from a stop?

[Mike Dobbs]

Hi everyone- new EUC rider here, about 30 or so miles in.  I think I figured out something about starting from a stop today.  Up until today I had been starting with my right foot on the pedal, and trying to sort of kick with my left foot to get going, and then pick my left foot up and place it on the other pedal.  I have found this to be very hit or miss, but chalked that up to my lack of experience.

Today I stumbled upon a realization at the end of my riding session (so I didn't have much time to test this).  It seems like instead of that "kick start," what I really need to do is put some forward pressure on the right foot plate and just step onto the wheel with the left foot.  In order to best do this it seems the wheel would actually need to start off slightly behind my center of gravity (or at least right in line with it) and not in front of it.  Does this jive with your experience of starting up?  I plan to test this some more when I get a chance tomorrow.

Thanks : )

[meepmeepmayer]

That's how I start! Never liked the kick off thing. It looks more fluid and "professional" though.

In the end, your body follows the EUC, not the other way around (even if you control the EUC with your body). So the skateboard start never made sense to me because you can't really kick the EUC forward, it would immediately counter unless you actually shifted your center of gravity. So the kick itself doesn't do anything to the EUC (like adding forward momentum) as it does to a skateboard and the skateboard rider. I guess it helps to move your center of gravity, but you can just start leaning for that (pedal pressure as you describe it).

[Dzlchef]

1 hour ago, Mike Dobbs said:

It seems like instead of that "kick start," what I really need to do is put some forward pressure on the right foot plate and just step onto the wheel with the left foot.  In order to best do this it seems the wheel would actually need to start off slightly behind my center of gravity (or at least right in line with it) and not in front of it.  Does this jive with your experience of starting up?  I plan to test this some more when I get a chance tomorrow.

That's more or less how I did it when learning.   You'll get to a point where you just lift your foot onto the pedal and go in the same movement.   It took many months before I was comfortable bringing up my foot and knowing that it's placed perfectly without looking or thinking about it.

[Mike Dobbs]

Cool- sounds like I'm on the right track!  Thanks guys

[Rywokast]

ive never done the kick start, always just stood straight up on it without moving.. whatever you find easiest in the beginning whether or not its the best you will get better over time.. 30 miles in is absolutely nothing at all, it will be hit or miss for some time to come just do whatever feels comfortable, just make sure your planted foot is where you want it to be before you go so you can then adjust your other foot as needed.. its infinitely more difficult to adjust your main foot (lets say right) than your left foot.. if you want to get much better and more accurate at it practice riding one footed even if only for short bouts, that will be the most complimentary thing to being able to get started gracefully.. depending on the wheel ill either just hop on while standing still and then go, or sometimes especially on wheels with smaller pedals i will start off riding on only my main foot and slowly bring up and adjust my left foot to a comfortable position while im riding.. practice takes perfect there is no one good way to do it only whats comfortable

[Rehab1]

I use both the pedal pressure and kick off technique except when mounting Luffy. I swear that little runt deliberately jibes as I begin my foot plant. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Rehab1

[Darrell Wesh]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That's how I start! Never liked the kick off thing. It looks more fluid and "professional" though.

In the end, your body follows the EUC, not the other way around (even if you control the EUC with your body). So the skateboard start never made sense to me because you can't really kick the EUC forward, it would immediately counter unless you actually shifted your center of gravity. So the kick itself doesn't do anything to the EUC (like adding forward momentum) as it does to a skateboard and the skateboard rider. I guess it helps to move your center of gravity, but you can just start leaning for that (pedal pressure as you describe it).

The kick start absolutely adds forward momentum and is pivotal for fast accelerations.

1)  By extending your leg behind you to “kick” you are allowing the EUC to move with considerably less weight placed on it.

2) After the kick and retrieval of the leg, you stand on the EUC which now has a rolling start from your kick which makes it incredibly easier to accelerate. Try and accelerate from a standstill and see how much more lean/effort you need to get started and experience the horrible “turbo lag” that all 18” + wheels have on standstill accelerations. A rolling start eliminates the turbo lag.

3) You put your body in optimal acceleration posture (hip hinge mechanics as seen in the still of Tishawn kick starting the Z10). This will reduce an accidental overlean caused by leaning too far forward  (Michael Jackson posture, which is bad acceleration mechanics)

i use an almost 3 pt “football” start for maximal accelerations off the line to beat cars at stop lights. I have one arm cocked back and one foot on the pedal. On green I vigorously swing forward the arm that was cocked back and simultaneously hyperextend my leg to kick start the EUC. Once I have both feet on the EUC I’m still locked in that hip hinge posture, I don’t stand straight up, (similar to a drive phase in track and field), this keeps my momentum smooth flowing with no jerkiness and achieves the fastest acceleration. 

Edited June 21, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Darrell Wesh]

You can see in my image that Tishawn does an excellent kick start, beautiful hyperextension to really get that rolling start from the Z10 by allowing it to creep forward with half his body weight on it. 

But he messes up the transition on the wheel by standing straight up once he gets both feet on, slowing down and jerking the smoothness of the acceleration. In the last photo he has to re- hip hinge mechanics to get back into that accelerative posture. (Granted this was a new wheel for him so he was surely not trying to start as fast as possible into the unknown/feeling the machine out )

@houseofjob We need frame by frame photo stills of you doing the “pedal pump!” How Tishawn started here is essentially how I start/accelerate with slight variances: cocked back arm at start and only that one arm thrust forward on kickoff, not standing up but staying low in hip hinge mechanics through the transition of stepping on the pedals to reaching my desired speed.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[LanghamP]

I'm with @Darrell WeshWesh on this one; the kickstart is excellent for bigger wheels, and indeed I usually make that huge extension with leg and arm. All wheels need a little help, and bigger wheels more help.

If you check energy consumption, then you'll see how energy efficient the kick start is, while the hop on start gobbles huge amounts of energy. However, you need to know both because it's difficult to safely kick start while carrying something...nothing wrong with a bunch of tiny newbie steps to get you above stall speed.

[Dzlchef]

1 minute ago, LanghamP said:

I'm with @Darrell WeshWesh on this one; the kickstart is excellent for bigger wheels, and indeed I usually make that huge extension with leg and arm. All wheels need a little help, and bigger wheels more help.

If you check energy consumption, then you'll see how energy efficient the kick start is, while the hop on start gobbles huge amounts of energy. However, you need to know both because it's difficult to safely kick start while carrying something...nothing wrong with a bunch of tiny newbie steps to get you above stall speed.

True regarding the extra energy usage, good point. 

[Mike Dobbs]

@Darrell Wesh That sounds like a much more advanced version of the "kick start" then I have been employing LOL

I'll keep all this in mind for when I have some miles under my belt- right now I'm just trying to get rolling without tipping over, and I've found the kick to be tricky.  I can see from the pics you posted that I really need to bend my front knee to be able to get forward pressure on the pedal- perhaps that's where it was causing me trouble.  I always felt like my weight was tending to shift back on the pedal as I kick, which of course works opposite to my intended direction of travel.  I've give it another try with a more aggressive bend in my knee next time.

One more question- I've noticed that after starting if I can straighten out my legs quickly (not locked, but straight), then it tends to be a good start.  On the other hand, if my knees remain bent it almost always leads to a shaky and wobbly start, if not a restart.  Does this jive with other people's experience?  As a beginner should I be working to straighten my leg right away or is that a bad habit I should try not to fall into?  Obviously, the aggressive kick start you're describing here would require legs to remain bent (if I'm understanding it correctly).

 

 

[Darrell Wesh]

1 minute ago, Mike Dobbs said:

One more question- I've noticed that after starting if I can straighten out my legs quickly (not locked, but straight), then it tends to be a good start.  On the other hand, if my knees remain bent it almost always leads to a shaky and wobbly start, if not a restart.  Does this jive with other people's experience?  As a beginner should I be working to straighten my leg right away or is that a bad habit I should try not to fall into?  Obviously, the aggressive kick start you're describing here would require leg

You need to build your leg strength/get used to the wheel before you can maintain that static bend when transitioning on to the wheel. Especially since your first foot placement most likely will need readjustment. So in essence, keeping the bend while accelerating is preferred but more advanced.

[Paul2579]

When I am in the middle of traffic and the "pressure" is on to start without a hitch, I go with the the method you stumbled upon.  In fact, my first movement is pressure on the heel, which brings the wheel under me somewhat aggressively, before weighting my toes.  It makes it that much easier to get my center of gravity just a touch ahead of the wheel's centerline, so that I smoothly fall into the forward movement.  

I sometimes struggle with the kickstart.  I think it's because it's more challenging to keep you center of gravity ahead of the wheel while you are kicking the wheel into forward motion.  I'm working on it though.  For the reasons that others have mentioned, it's seems like a valuable skill to have it the toolkit. 

A note (and warning) about patterning yourself after Tishawn:  I have studied some of his videos because he rides like no one else and I found it really interesting.  I tried to follow his movements it and felt incredibly challenging and damned dangerous.  On a superficial level, his technique is counter intuitive because he moves his arms opposite from everyone else.  When he carves right, both of his arms swing out to the left as a counterbalance.  And vis versa on the other side.  No one else does this.  He is still counter-steering to transition between carving turns like all the other high-level riders, but he gets there in a unique way.  After playing around with this and more studying of the videos, a light bulb went off in my head.  He rides a wheel like he rides a skateboard/snowboard, with a dominant foot and a non-dominant foot.  You can see it in his stance and hips, and how the mechanics for carving in one direction are for him are slightly different than carving in the other direction.  It's like he has figured out how to snowboard on skis, for lack of a better description. Once I started to visualize it this way (I ride an electric skateboard, kiteboard, etc., as well), I was able able to replicate some of his movements without killing myself.  But there were a few near misses.   

Anyway, those still shots posted above reminded me of this process, and I thought I'd mention that if you are going to study Tishawn in particular, you need to be a little more deliberate about it than you might guess.  I wouldn't be surprised if even his starting motion (including the re-hip hinge) was somewhat unique to him.  

[Darrell Wesh]

4 hours ago, Paul2579 said:

When I am in the middle of traffic and the "pressure" is on to start without a hitch, I go with the the method you stumbled upon.  In fact, my first movement is pressure on the heel, which brings the wheel under me somewhat aggressively, before weighting my toes.  It makes it that much easier to get my center of gravity just a touch ahead of the wheel's centerline, so that I smoothly fall into the forward movement.  

I sometimes struggle with the kickstart.  I think it's because it's more challenging to keep you center of gravity ahead of the wheel while you are kicking the wheel into forward motion.  I'm working on it though.  For the reasons that others have mentioned, it's seems like a valuable skill to have it the toolkit. 

A note (and warning) about patterning yourself after Tishawn:  I have studied some of his videos because he rides like no one else and I found it really interesting.  I tried to follow his movements it and felt incredibly challenging and damned dangerous.  On a superficial level, his technique is counter intuitive because he moves his arms opposite from everyone else.  When he carves right, both of his arms swing out to the left as a counterbalance.  And vis versa on the other side.  No one else does this.  He is still counter-steering to transition between carving turns like all the other high-level riders, but he gets there in a unique way.  After playing around with this and more studying of the videos, a light bulb went off in my head.  He rides a wheel like he rides a skateboard/snowboard, with a dominant foot and a non-dominant foot.  You can see it in his stance and hips, and how the mechanics for carving in one direction are for him are slightly different than carving in the other direction.  It's like he has figured out how to snowboard on skis, for lack of a better description. Once I started to visualize it this way (I ride an electric skateboard, kiteboard, etc., as well), I was able able to replicate some of his movements without killing myself.  But there were a few near misses.   

Anyway, those still shots posted above reminded me of this process, and I thought I'd mention that if you are going to study Tishawn in particular, you need to be a little more deliberate about it than you might guess.  I wouldn't be surprised if even his starting motion (including the re-hip hinge) was somewhat unique to him.  

Eh not counter intuitive. “Playful” is the word I would use. Counterbalancing by using his arms allows him to lean more in the direction he wants which is more thrilling giving the sensation of almost falling. 

As far as the starting motion I’m positive it was just a cautionary measure because he did not know how the wheel would react to hard acceleration. 

I ride with one foot more forward then the other, and a sideways stance (as sideways as you can get facing forward). 

[Paul2579]

24 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

“Playful” is the word I would use

Playful is a great word to describe his riding style. 

25 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Eh not counter intuitive

A poor word choice by me.  But I would still argue that it’s non-obvious. Otherwise more people would ride like him.  I know I would. I liken it to Nadal’s forehand in tennis.  Maybe it’s not counter-intuitive that a person can generate extreme pace, control and spin hitting the ball the way he does once you see him do it, but in the millions of collective man-hours spent playing tennis, only he has figured out how to actually do it.

33 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I ride with one foot more forward then the other, and a sideways stance (as sideways as you can get facing forward). 

This is interesting. Serious and respectful question:  does what you are doing approximate what Tishawn is doing?   Because I’ve been wondering whether I should spend more time mimicking him, which would require some serious re-jiggering, or whether I’m wasting my time.   I’m generally pretty coordinated with such things, so I figure if some / many people can make it work then I should be able to as well.  On the other hand—going back to the Nadal analogy—some people go where others cannot follow.  And I’ve not found a single example of someone using what I believe to be his core riding characteristics. I only know what I see on video, unfortunately, which is an imperfect sampling...

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, Paul2579 said:

Playful is a great word to describe his riding style. 

A poor word choice by me.  But I would still argue that it’s non-obvious. Otherwise more people would ride like him.  I know I would. I liken it to Nadal’s forehand in tennis.  Maybe it’s not counter-intuitive that a person can generate extreme pace, control and spin hitting the ball the way he does once you see him do it, but in the millions of collective man-hours spent playing tennis, only he has figured out how to actually do it.

This is interesting. Serious and respectful question:  does what you are doing approximate what Tishawn is doing?   Because I’ve been wondering whether I should spend more time mimicking him, which would require some serious re-jiggering, or whether I’m wasting my time.   I’m generally pretty coordinated with such things, so I figure if some / many people can make it work then I should be able to as well.  On the other hand—going back to the Nadal analogy—some people go where others cannot follow.  And I’ve not found a single example of someone using what I believe to be his core riding characteristics. I only know what I see on video, unfortunately, which is an imperfect sampling...

It’s just fun and looks cool to spectators(especially compared to the boring static arms at side stance). I wouldn’t try to emulate him. It is dangerous as you can fall trying to slalom the way he does. 

Edited June 22, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Mike Dobbs]

This is all very interesting- thanks everyone!  FWIW- I've seen Tishawn's videos and they're certainly impressive (and a little scary at times to watch).  I'm not far from LI, so I may get to see him in person some day at a NYC group ride! 

 

[LucasD]

Tishawn is using (ski/ snowboard) race-carving technique plus flashy hands  

He simply counter-balance the turns, given that he does it less in one direction shows a snowboard usage  It allow very fast transition and sharp turn, albeit risking pedal scrape (as wheel tends to get to lower angle than body)

Based on description I thought he was body carving (slower technique and IMO more dangerous) but on videos it is racing style...

[Paul2579]

12 hours ago, LucasD said:

Tishawn is using (ski/ snowboard) race-carving technique plus flashy hands

I don't think I'm over analyzing to say that it's more than flashy hands.  Though there's that as well.  

Most of us ride pretty straight on, so when initiating a counter-steering turn at speed--by first turning the wheel away from the direction of the turn so that the wheel falls into the desired turning direction--we can arrest the "fall" by putting pressure on the outside pedal or even using our outside leg on the side of wheel, thereby arriving at the desired carving path.  Same way a motorcycle works.  And the hip release motion is a lot like skiing, which I'm very comfortable with. 

Tishawn on the other hand rides on an angle like he's carving on a snowboard, except that the pedal orientation keeps this angle fairly subtle.  He too counter-steers at speed to initiate the turn.  But because he's at an angle, he can't as easily control the speed with which the wheel falls into the turn with his outside leg, and so he uses the pendulum of his arms to help arrest the fall.  If you don't coordinate the arms the right way, the wheel continues to fall into the turn unabated.  Done well, it can make for some very sharp turns and changes of direction.  Done poorly, well, you get the idea.  (I had to learn the hard way, of course.) 

Said another way, most people rotate their shoulders in the direction of the carving turn, and as a result our arm/hands follow in that same direction.  Tishawn does exactly the opposite, because he needs his arms as a counter-balance to the counter-steer. 

On 6/21/2019 at 8:37 PM, Darrell Wesh said:

It’s just fun and looks cool to spectators(especially compared to the boring static arms at side stance)

For the reasons stated above, I think it's more than that.  Tishawn would fall to the ground if he didn't move his arms the way he does.  The fact that others can carve an equally sharp turn while not moving their hands makes it seem like he's doing it just for fun or to be flashy,  but I think it's all driven by the choices he makes in in other aspects of his riding. 

[Paul2579]

5 minutes ago, Paul2579 said:

Said another way, most people rotate their shoulders in the direction of the carving turn, and as a result our arm/hands follow in that same direction.  Tishawn does exactly the opposite, because he needs his arms as a counter-balance to the counter-steer.

And by "most of us," I mean everyone I've every seen, other than Tishawn. 

[mrelwood]

Regarding the kick-start, the reason I use it is that I often start on off-road and other uneven surfaces. Starting from behind a pine cone (, twig, or other tiny obstacle) would require a good amount of pressure at the front of the pedals, which is harder to do while starting. Kicking gives me momentum to roll over the pine cones with better balance while I mount my other foot.

[LucasD]

8 hours ago, Paul2579 said:

And by "most of us," I mean everyone I've every seen, other than Tishawn. 

You can see the ski racing technique nicely here. 

Compare it to Tishawn and you will see that he does quite similar with more flashy arms, here the angles, speed and G force are much higher though...

 

[stephen]

9 hours ago, Paul2579 said:

I don't think I'm over analyzing to say that it's more than flashy hands.  Though there's that as well.  

Most of us ride pretty straight on, so when initiating a counter-steering turn at speed--by first turning the wheel away from the direction of the turn so that the wheel falls into the desired turning direction--we can arrest the "fall" by putting pressure on the outside pedal or even using our outside leg on the side of wheel, thereby arriving at the desired carving path.  Same way a motorcycle works.  And the hip release motion is a lot like skiing, which I'm very comfortable with. 

Tishawn on the other hand rides on an angle like he's carving on a snowboard, except that the pedal orientation keeps this angle fairly subtle.  He too counter-steers at speed to initiate the turn.  But because he's at an angle, he can't as easily control the speed with which the wheel falls into the turn with his outside leg, and so he uses the pendulum of his arms to help arrest the fall.  If you don't coordinate the arms the right way, the wheel continues to fall into the turn unabated.  Done well, it can make for some very sharp turns and changes of direction.  Done poorly, well, you get the idea.  (I had to learn the hard way, of course.) 

Said another way, most people rotate their shoulders in the direction of the carving turn, and as a result our arm/hands follow in that same direction.  Tishawn does exactly the opposite, because he needs his arms as a counter-balance to the counter-steer. 

For the reasons stated above, I think it's more than that.  Tishawn would fall to the ground if he didn't move his arms the way he does.  The fact that others can carve an equally sharp turn while not moving their hands makes it seem like he's doing it just for fun or to be flashy,  but I think it's all driven by the choices he makes in in other aspects of his riding. 

Just looked at my video it seems like my arms swing out when turning ,, well only one cause I'm holding a selfie stick with the other , I'll have to video it with both arms free using my back bar stick

 

[Darrell Wesh]

On 6/21/2019 at 8:37 PM, Darrell Wesh said:

It is dangerous as you can fall trying to slalom the way he does. 

 

9 hours ago, Paul2579 said:

For the reasons stated above, I think it's more than that.  Tishawn would fall to the ground if he didn't move his arms the way he does. 

That’s what I said.... but don’t be mistaken about the order and cause and effect of his actions. You make it sound like he has no choice. He’s always in control; it’s playful because he chooses to exaggerate his motions by using his arms. If he didn’t use his arms he wouldn’t exaggerate his motions. 

[Paul2579]

 

1 hour ago, LucasD said:

Compare it to Tishawn and you will see that he does quite similar with more flashy arms,

Great video, hadn't seen that before.  Tnx!  Though I think it demonstrates what I've been trying to articulate.  Tishawn is achieving a similar lean angle to a slalom skiier, but his movements are very different.  A skiier would have his shoulders more aggressively rotated in the direction of the turn, with this arms pointing in the same direction as the carving turn.  But Tishawn rides a wheel like a goofy footed snowboarder.  Because a wheel is not a snowboard and requires counter-steering to carve at high speed, Tishawn is using his arms as a counterbalance and moves them in the opposite direction of the turn.  (Snowboarder's don't do this to the same degree because they don't have to worry about uncontrolled tip-ins from counter-steering.)    Compare Stephen's video, the images of Tishawn I pasted below, and the Ligetty slalom video and I think you'll see what I mean.  Stephen looks like a skiier.  Tishawn does not.  They appear to be the same only if you look at the lean angle of the wheel, while ignoring the upper body and hips. (BTW, I'm curious to know whether Tishawn rides a skateboard goofy-footed.  I bet he does.)  So I maintain my view that Tishawn is doing something unique, until shown otherwise... 

1 hour ago, Darrell Wesh said:

You make it sound like he has no choice. He’s always in control; it’s playful because he chooses to exaggerate his motions by using his arms. If he didn’t use his arms he wouldn’t exaggerate his motions.

Agree that he is always in control.  Disagree that he chooses to exaggerate the motion of his arms.  I would argue he uses them exactly to the degree he needs to to counterbalance the tipping in of the counter-steering wheel.  No more and no less.  Which is why the degree of motion of his arms changes with the degree of lean-in angle in the turn.  If I'm right, then there is no exaggeration. And that is sort of the definition of control, right?  (Well not quite, but you get the point.)  To say that that he chooses to exaggerate his arms I think doesn't give the purposefulness of his movement enough credit.  As for choice, I have no doubt that he could ride well using other dynamics and not use his arms in the way that he does.  But going back to tennis, it's like saying Nadal has no choice but to whip his arm around his head and generate so much so much top spin.  Of course he does.  But then he wouldn't be Nadal.  (BTW, I hope it doesn't seem like I'm being critical of his riding.  Just the opposite--I'm jealous.  Which is why I've spent so much time thinking about it.) 

Finally, apologies for hijacking this thread.  I have been interested in this for some time and am clearly suffering from a lack of anyone to chat with about it.  For some reason my family doesn't find this interesting...    I'll stop now.