Life with first batch KS18L

[andress]

So I have been meaning to do this write up for a long time but I was way too busy (master thesis, finals, new job..you name it) until now + it seems like a good time to warn people before ordering the from the first batch of the new 16X.

If you don't feel like reading the whole thing there is a summary of all the things that went wrong with my wheel at the bottom.

I have (pre)ordered my KS18L already in January 2018 but of course since there was a lot of delays I only got it in June. It was wheel from the very first batch and boy it showed...I was mostly amazed by this wheel but experienced many problems with it. More in my first impressions: 

The problems with pick-up switch were present on pretty much every single unit from the first batch and never entirely fixed. After the updated of FW and calibration it no longer disengaged randomly while standing but it still was so unreliable that it was better to keep the function turned off.

My KS18L also lost the serial number once and had to be reinitiated by the service app - another few days of no riding.

But the worst came when the wheel started to behave like it was being charged when it wasn't . That meant that when turned on it would never engage it would only show charging animation on the LED circle. After about a month I got new board from KS which was supposed to fix that but didn't. It only switched one problem for another. Now the wheel would turn on but couldn't be charged for a change. So after another month and a lot of emails between my small local distributor and KS new batteries have arrived. But oh boy what kind of batteries! Immediately after unpacking I knew something wasn't right. KS18L batteries are closed in a plastic case and the old ones didn't show any bulging or anything like that. But the new ones came slightly open and I wasn't able to close them properly. They just didn't fit! Have a look at the photo:

 

That was weird but I was like oh ok, maybe that happened during transport. Since they were already half way open I decided to check for further damage inside. I found some but it seemed minimal. Just one cell with slight crack in the isolation:

With this I have decided that ok I will just tape them shut and the situation is not ideal but I want to ride so let's plug them in. At this point two things saved me. 1) weird feeling about a sticker in Chinese on one of the batteries 2) checking the battery packs voltage. Since the sticker just seemed weird I sent a picture of it to my Chinese friend. Screen shot from the conversation:

Oh my god could it be?? Did KS just KNOWINGLY sent me a battery with reversed polarity on the connector??!! Well they DID!  (I actually never got statement from KS about how could this happen maybe @US69 could get answer from them?) I measured and the batteries had the same voltage but on different pins. If I wasn't too focused while measuring the voltage before installation I could have easily missed the small minus(-) on the voltmeter since I would only be looking for the absolute value. If that happened I would have created a short which would most likely destroy the batteries and the board I just spent two months getting and may have even resulted in fire. Thanks a lot KS! Because of the colored wires it can actually be seen even without measurement. Notice the groove is in different place in relation to the cables on each battery.

I know my way around soldering so I fixed this, I resoldered the connector and went riding. Catastrophe averted!  But still I always have a bad feeling about the batteries. With China you expect that QC is not of the highest standard but these batteries actually didn't manage to pass even the Chinese QC and were sent to me! Are they gonna explode while charging? Are they gonna catch fire when going 50km/h? Who knows??

So I was finally riding again. At least for some time... soon after my headlight burned out(again common issue with the first batches) so I switched the mudguard around and kept on riding. Then the trolly handle stopped locking inside (another common issue) so I had to carry the wheel while it was half extended. Than the second headlight died... Then the trolley stopped locking even in the halfway position.. What a quality product!! All of these issues were eventually fixed as I received replacement parts from my distributor but why so many issues in the first place? Why do I have to wait a month each time?? And also my distributor told me that for the lights and new trolley handle he had to pay himself as KS refused to provide warranty support anymore...

So yeah this is my story. I love the wheel I use it everyday and I still think it is the best wheel for my usage but why did it have to take almost a year to get to a fully working state? Why couldn't I receive fully functional unit in the first place? Everyone is bashing on Gotway quality but I had exactly zero problems on my MTen3 and about a million problems with my KS18L.

I know this is one off but I still wanted to let you know. KS isn't perfect and there is high chance of problems in the first batch of any wheel!

Summary:

• non-functional pick-up sensor (partially fixed but never 100%)
• forgotten serial number (fixed by service app)
• behaving like it is on charge (fixed but took quarter of a year)
• dangerous batteries that didn't pass QC (still using those after DIY fixes)
• burned out headlight x 2 (fixed by replacement)
• non-locking trolley handle (fixed by replacement

[US69]

@andress

WOW....what a summery of bad experience!

First: Sorry for all this bad experience! I would have gone mad if all this happened to me, and i can only excuse for all this bad shit happening, especially in the aftermath, with receiving a battery pack with WRONG polarity! What a desaster!

From my very personal standpoint:

I “joined” the KS team in middle of 2018....and i have done that as my thoughts were (in short):

”...this EUC thing is your alltime best hobby....you answer and help people nonetheless....KS has made the best quality since then, whjihc i personally experineced with 10plus wheels......you like the KS wheels....so why not work up with the KS Team...and everone gets forward, progress will be made, the community is happy”

That where my thoughts when i joined...........thought i made a good decision....and then the 18L arrived! And some had this stunning issues...like “trolley freeze”....”trolley weakness” and “LED light problems”.....to sum it up! Your special battery and charge problem, i can really honestly say, i hear first time, so that seams to have been a one timer! (i know, wont help you to know that). What i want  to say is: I was stunned how bad things come up!!! Totally catched on the feet where i did NOT want to land.......

 

yes, the 18L had its first batch problems, mostly trolley weakness and Led lights getting bad.

All these things have been fixed in later versions and are not existent anymore. I have a 18L latest gen and 1500km now without any probs. That THIS wasnt the case on the first iteration....i only can say Sorry....and that trolley and LED light problems on your wheel, or better: ALL of your problems, in my view, would have need a warranty fix and should GET a warranty fix! 

Problem is...i have no advise whatsoever how and when or -if at all- the “reseller” fixes the problem. So i would invite you to contact me by PM and change out some more details about it!

Also i will personally link this thread to head of support.....hopefully that he jumps in here, too, and makes -at least- a excuse for this battery debacle!

[andress]

@US69 Thank you for your answer.  I hope to also hear from the head of support, it would be good to know what processes failed and how they were changed in regard to sending batteries with reversed polarity out...

On different note. It must have been hard for you I think becoming KS Social media representative just before the shit storm that the first batch of KS18L came. I think the 18L was a bit of a revolutionary wheel for KS and there was so much new stuff coming all at once (84V, pickup sensor, really strong headlights, wires coming out of both sides of the axle, first entirely new powerful model in a while) it would be almost a miracle if everything worked on the first try. Maybe they have also became a bit cocky after the absolutely minimal failure rate of the 14S and 16S and didn't do enough testing and just trusted their expertise.  Anyway I do really hope they learned their lesson and the first batch of 16X will be another story.  (still never gonna buy first batch wheel ever again from any manufacturer  )

[US69]

11 hours ago, andress said:

@US69 Thank you for your answer.  I hope to also hear from the head of support, it would be good to know what processes failed and how they were changed in regard to sending batteries with reversed polarity out...

On different note. It must have been hard for you I think becoming KS Social media representative just before the shit storm that the first batch of KS18L came. I think the 18L was a bit of a revolutionary wheel for KS and there was so much new stuff coming all at once (84V, pickup sensor, really strong headlights, wires coming out of both sides of the axle, first entirely new powerful model in a while) it would be almost a miracle if everything worked on the first try. Maybe they have also became a bit cocky after the absolutely minimal failure rate of the 14S and 16S and didn't do enough testing and just trusted their expertise.  Anyway I do really hope they learned their lesson and the first batch of 16X will be another story.  (still never gonna buy first batch wheel ever again from any manufacturer  )

Thanks for your post answer and....i have to say, with that much of a mess up, not everyone would stay that calm.

respects for that!

I can totally assure you, that noone got „cocky“ their over at KS....and at the time when all this happens  i was in nearly daily exchange of news of what and why the failure happens! 

I can assure you this faults will not happen again....as said they were allready wiped out on latest versions.

And yeah, i can agree, it was perhaps to much of new things in one wheel....especially the new 84Volt board with a electric connected handle rod was the „biggest culprit“ and KS learned this lesson.

 Nonetheless no human being is failure free, and i very often say, that KS is still a small company, but really trying hardly to progress and get better....and most important....listening to customer. They have a phantastic marketing/sales manager with @tinawong and latest with @Micheal Shenand new head of technic support.

Also i know no other EUC company that had also installed one out of the community.....to stay directly connected to the wishes and problems of their users......and believe me...when they mess things up, i tell them, i dont wont to see MY reputation go down....

Thanks also for your PM!

[eufp]

On 6/14/2019 at 5:37 PM, andress said:

Summary:

• non-functional pick-up sensor (partially fixed but never 100%)
• forgotten serial number (fixed by service app)
• behaving like it is on charge (fixed but took quarter of a year)
• dangerous batteries that didn't pass QC (still using those after DIY fixes)
• burned out headlight x 2 (fixed by replacement)
• non-locking trolley handle (fixed by replacement

At least your wheel does not throw a fit with violent shake every now and then while trolleying, or does not lock up after a firmware update (while trolleying). I am still trying to figure out what to do with it, and what could help to remove that problem.

[Kens]

How come I never seen this thread until now? 

By the looks of current 16X prototype that circulating around, I saw too much issue already let alone that is not discovered yet ( who would think that 18L will lock up randomly just by trolleying it around?). With only one month away I don't think KS can smoothed all the issue for the first batch of 16X.

I literally almost pre-order the 16X last night. I got my card already pulled out in front of me but I pulled out other thing instead ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Now thanks to your post I will definitely skip the first batch. 

[Hatchet]

This reads like a horror novel. At least the wheel didn't tie your shoelaces together when you weren't looking!

[Joker10]

Not sure if mine is 1st gen or not.  Bought it used.  Have ridden it about 900 miles and it had 384 miles on it when I got it.  I have not had any problems at all.  Love this wheel.  Never thought I would find one I liked better than the 16s but the 18l fits what I do better.  Did 30.5 miles today visiting my parents.  I had a blast.  Sorry to hear of all the problems you have had with yours.  

[Circuitmage]

I reflect some of that.

Both my new 16S and 18L had problems right out of the box, so I am definitely waiting on my next upgrade.

My 16S had the violent shaking issues and needed a controller replacement, which my local sales dealer fixed within a couple weeks for me...then no problems whatsoever with that machine for the next year!

My 18L had many other more minor problems, but problems nonetheless. At this point, after almost a year of use, I attribute the problems mainly on the lift sensor. Whenever I try to use that, my machine has had vibration issues, lock-up issues, cut-out issues, all kinds of weird things. Simply disabling the lift sensor seems to give me a decent running wheel. The dealer for this wheel supplied me with a replacement motherboard, that I did the change out on...but quickly realized the same issues as the original motherboard. So right now, I have a defective lift sensor on one side (have not bothered to investigate) and run the wheel with lift sensor disabled and it seems to work fine. Somewhat disappointed that the lift sensor does not work and seems to cause lots of issues when enabled.

Not real surprising though, as these things pack a lot of mechanical and electrical integration. Getting everything to work perfectly is a nice trick...and overall they do work great. Magnificent pieces of technology...especially when they work like their supposed to.

[US69]

35 minutes ago, Circuitmage said:

I reflect some of that.

Both my new 16S and 18L had problems right out of the box, so I am definitely waiting on my next upgrade.

My 16S had the violent shaking issues and needed a controller replacement, which my local sales dealer fixed within a couple weeks for me...then no problems whatsoever with that machine for the next year!

My 18L had many other more minor problems, but problems nonetheless. At this point, after almost a year of use, I attribute the problems mainly on the lift sensor. Whenever I try to use that, my machine has had vibration issues, lock-up issues, cut-out issues, all kinds of weird things. Simply disabling the lift sensor seems to give me a decent running wheel. The dealer for this wheel supplied me with a replacement motherboard, that I did the change out on...but quickly realized the same issues as the original motherboard. So right now, I have a defective lift sensor on one side (have not bothered to investigate) and run the wheel with lift sensor disabled and it seems to work fine. Somewhat disappointed that the lift sensor does not work and seems to cause lots of issues when enabled.

Not real surprising though, as these things pack a lot of mechanical and electrical integration. Getting everything to work perfectly is a nice trick...and overall they do work great. Magnificent pieces of technology...especially when they work like their supposed to.

Yeah, we talked a bit about your issues.....

I can only say that KS learned from the problems with the 18L and now are really going for the 16X to be delivered flawless. So its delayed a bit.  Knowing the history of KS and owning pretty much all of their wheels...what happend on the 18L first batches never had happend before. Especially the S series, 14S, 16S and 18S.....even the very first batches have been pretty much flawless and without real problems.

The 18L so.....was a new experience, and perhaps with a new 84V system and trolley sensor they put  to much in one wheel?!

Meanwhile all these starting problems are solved....and as said, i can only argue to read the „16x rumours“ thread.....there its a bit documented how KS handled the new wheel....prototypes, pre-prduction version....solving all probs that have been getting back to KS now, before production continues/starts......

 

Edited June 25, 2019 by US69

[Joker10]

Weird, I had a problem with one of the batteries on my 16s, once it was replaced I never had a problem again.  After reading about circuitmages lift sensor problem I am tempted to turn mine off.  I really don’t want a cut out.

[US69]

10 minutes ago, Joker10 said:

Weird, I had a problem with one of the batteries on my 16s, once it was replaced I never had a problem again.  After reading about circuitmages lift sensor problem I am tempted to turn mine off.  I really don’t want a cut out.

Just to be clear:

Not one wheel in the world had a cutoff because of those freeze problems. These freeze issue only happened when trolleying the wheel. And in fact they have nothing todo with the on/off status of the handle sensor.

[Circuitmage]

Agreed. There were a couple FW fixes that seem to solved that problem. And cut-outs during riding have not happened to anyone as far as I know.

@Joker10 Somehow, one of my lift sensors went defective (I assume it was after my disassembly to change the tube and controller board), and that definitely caused more issues. In your app, if you look at your wheel status details, you can see the status of your lift sensors. If one of them is defective (like mine is), I would definitely disable the lift sensor.

[Ednet92]

I've got 3000 km on my KS 18L. No major issue after close than a Year.  By the way, how do you check your batch number ??

On my end small concerns where/are: 

Lift sensor: 

2 random flaws: 

1°When idle on a wall for instance: it self activate and the wheel can fall down (worse case is when you're waiting at a traffic light,, one foot on the ground, the other "holding" the wheel and it suddenly get loose (you're lucky when this 22KG wheel is not slipping your foot and falling down scratching badly the pedals or the plastic shell)

1° when lifting in on a stair for instance, when it's hot 85 degrees

not to often though (once every 10 times would say) but still unreliable 

Motor drive: I mean, why do we have to add such a crazy pressure on the front of the pedal in steep road to get the motor to climb. the power is here, we just want it to spin with a normal pressure, even with the XL pedal I still have to use all my strength so the wheel climb fast. (it's as if we'd had to use all our strength on the gaz pedal of a car to get it to accelerate)

Tyre was mounted the wrong way, and scrapping the inner side of the shell (almost fixe it in recentrying the tyre gently)

I have the first version headlights (not with the aluminium heat stuff), but no issue as far

Application is still so frustrating to me: 

unreadable font size for major data: % left, temp, etc. 

so unbarassing loud voice when in work environment (Bluetooth is connected!! shout the speaker - so glad to know it) 

Blinking light way to fast and agressive for pedestrian. 

Horn agressive to pedestrian (again) and ridiculous. 

Overall, a good wheel but far from being perfect. 

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Ednet92