California's Law for Electric Unicycle

[Elder Meat]

@Kens Please cite the relevant vehicle code(s) that lead you to that conclusion.

Edited June 14, 2019 by Elder Meat

[Kens]

56 minutes ago, Elder Meat said:

@Kens Please cite the relevant vehicle code(s) that lead you to that conclusion.

My conclusion actually because the lack of any vehicle code..

4000 CVC said that:

(a) (1) A person shall not drive, move, or leave standing upon a highway, or in an offstreet public parking facility, any motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer, pole or pipe dolly, or logging dolly, unless it is registered and the appropriate fees have been paid under this code or registered under the permanent trailer identification program, except that an off-highway motor vehicle which displays an identification plate or device issued by the department pursuant to Section 38010 may be driven, moved, or left standing in an offstreet public parking facility without being registered or paying registration fees.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=VEH&division=3.&title=&part=&chapter=1.&article=1.

CVC DIVISION 3 article 1 told us about which vehicle should be registered and which one is exempted. However since our "Vehicle" (670 CVC) is not fit "Motor Vehicle" (415 CVC) or any other definition then logically it goes to the default illegal vehicle? Example is a AT-AT from Star Wars will fit "Vehicle" (670 CVC)  definition but not any other definition. Isn't it will be illegal to be driven anywhere?

 

I'm trying to be strict in the interpretation here which not really necessary. I believe @who_the interpretation is good enough that might get us out some situation.

However, I think I would it be good if we know what the law is really saying?

 

edit: Better example 

Edited June 14, 2019 by Kens

[JerryR]

On 6/13/2019 at 7:35 AM, Dzlchef said:

Cities have their own regulations with regards to our ability to ride on sidewalks as well, although I’m not cutting/pasting the actual statutes, it’s good to be aware and know where you ride.  LA is fine with us riding on sidewalks as long as we aren’t being wreck less and endangering others.  West Hollywood is the same except you can’t ride on sidewalks of roads that have designated bike lanes. 

Sorry ... I can't help myself ...  I think it's better being wreck less than being wreck more. Of course being reckless is not good for our public image and may endanger others. 

[WheelPappy]

Damn, beat me to it @JerryR.

I'm also, mostly, recklessly wreck-less in my wheeling around. Bad image, great safety. Er something like that 🙃.

 

[Elder Meat]

Sorry, I lost track of this thread and just found it again. So to summarize:

If your EUC can not go faster than 20mph and has a motor less than 1000 watts, it's an "electrically motorized board" as defined in 313.5 CVC. No ifs, ands or buts.

If it can go faster or has a bigger motor, it is a just "vehicle" as defined in 670 CVC. Someone could argue it's a "motor vehicle" as defined in 415 CVC, but since CA DMV doesn't require registration or insurance it isn't.

If you are in the latter category you can enjoy the best of both worlds: you can claim your EUC is an electrically motorized board in circumstances where they are explicitly allowed, and state it is not when they are expressly prohibited. 

Note that high end electric scooters are an even worse case of this gray area. An electric scooter in the shape of a Vespa has to be registered with the DMV, needs insurance and an M2 driver's license. But an electric scooter like the Dualtron Thunder (which can go just as fast at 50mph) because it's in a different form factor doesn't need any of that.

Eventually laws will be codified/amended to catch up with EUC/eScooter technology. But for now at least it's pretty open.

[Kens]

1 hour ago, Elder Meat said:

Eventually laws will be codified/amended to catch up with EUC/eScooter technology. But for now at least it's pretty open.

Yeah hopefully the laws will catch up for the better not worse. We are lucky that here in California is a bit lenient about all this UEO (Unidentified Electric Object) thingys, especially in SF 

1 hour ago, Elder Meat said:

If your EUC can not go faster than 20mph and has a motor less than 1000 watts, it's an "electrically motorized board" as defined in 313.5 CVC. No ifs, ands or buts.

Yes.

Quote

If it can go faster or has a bigger motor, it is a just "vehicle" as defined in 670 CVC. Someone could argue it's a "motor vehicle" as defined in 415 CVC, but since CA DMV doesn't require registration or insurance it isn't.

If you are in the latter category you can enjoy the best of both worlds: you can claim your EUC is an electrically motorized board in circumstances where they are explicitly allowed, and state it is not when they are expressly prohibited. 

Your lawnmower does not required registration or insurance by CA DMV and can be classified as "vehicle" as defined in 670 CVC if you tape the throttle and ride on it on the road.. Claiming that it isn't electrically motorized board in circumstances where they are expressly prohibited does not make it any better.. Same as EUC that classified as "vehicle".

Quote

Note that high end electric scooters are an even worse case of this gray area. An electric scooter in the shape of a Vespa has to be registered with the DMV, needs insurance and an M2 driver's license. But an electric scooter like the Dualtron Thunder (which can go just as fast at 50mph) because it's in a different form factor doesn't need any of that.

But an electric scooter like the Dualtron Thunder (which can go just as fast at 50mph) because it's in a different form factor doesn't need have any of that.

 

My point is if it's not be able to fit in any category that can be regulated then it's illegal to be ridden in public road. I'm only worried about this if any of us that ride non-whimphy wheel get stopped by the authority because we can't fight back (on the wrong side). You can ride a car without any driver licences as long you don't get stopped. The problem started when you get stopped... So ride with caution & know your rights and limitations.. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by Kens

[Elder Meat]

1 hour ago, Kens said:

Your lawnmower does not required registration or insurance by CA DMV and can be classified as "vehicle" as defined in 670 CVC if you tape the throttle and ride on it on the road.

Yep. That's how people get DUIs riding lawnmowers on the street. https://www.duiattorneyhome.com/articles/dui-for-riding-a-lawn-mower

2 hours ago, Kens said:

Claiming that it isn't electrically motorized board in circumstances where they are expressly prohibited does not make it any better.

It does in that Joe Cop is unlikely to know the difference between a KS 14D and 16S offhand. Nor is he likely to write a citation when you present seemingly authoritative evidence why you are not in violation of the law. This is like claiming ADA privileges when you aren't handicapped. Ethically it isn't something I would do but lying to cops isn't unheard of. 

[Kens]

1 hour ago, Elder Meat said:

Yep. That's how people get DUIs riding lawnmowers on the street. https://www.duiattorneyhome.com/articles/dui-for-riding-a-lawn-mower

I knew it Michael Jackson is still alive! 

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It does in that Joe Cop is unlikely to know the difference between a KS 14D and 16S offhand.

Agree.

Quote

Nor is he likely to write a citation when you present seemingly authoritative evidence why you are not in violation of the law.

Agree until in an unlikely scenario he asked you the evidence why you are not in violation of the law.

Quote

This is like claiming ADA privileges when you aren't handicapped. Ethically it isn't something I would do but lying to cops isn't unheard of. 

In ADA they can't ask what is your disabilities. In this case they can ask the evidence that you are not in violation of the law. If so then we are SOL right?

I'm talking about extreme cases off course.. such as pulled over then asked the proof that you are legal or get cited..

Edited August 8, 2019 by Kens

[Elder Meat]

18 hours ago, Kens said:

In this case they can ask the evidence that you are not in violation of the law. If so then we are SOL right?

If the scenario is you're riding a KS 16S, InMotion V10 or something else that's more powerful than an "electrically motorized board". When ridden where electrically motorized boards are allowed, it's unlikely Joe Cop is going to say, "Hey, that EUC's motor is more powerful than 1000 watts." When ridden where signs are posted saying electrically motorized boards are not permitted, it's easy to show the vehicle code and EUC specs.

If the scenario is you're riding a KS 14D, well you should have gotten a 16s.

[tscottn]

when I watch videos of the NYC guys cruising the streets if NY like they own the streets weaving in and out of traffic and such, I am surprised that the laws in NY have not caught up with EUCs to outlaw this behavior.  While fun i am sure, it does seem reckless to me and I wonder how long it will take before they are outlawed there too.  I hope never but I seriously doubt it.  

Edited August 9, 2019 by tscottn

[Scubadragonsan]

Use of ADA Title 3 where EUCs are ban--San Francisco Angel Island! We are both seniors in our 60s! Check out the brief dialogue we had with park ranger re-stated. Laws/regulations are really outdated. On this island, we saw use of rental bicycles and supposedly also have Segway tours. We have to say the views from Angel Island in everywhich way are breathtaking. If you don't have a medical condition, please don't abuse this privilege We calculated if you want to follow the two circular paths around the island, walking would take 8-10 hours. With EUCs, it can easily be done at a leisure pace within 2-3 hours. Thanks to our KS18S and InMotion V10F!

 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by scubadragosan
add photo

[Kens]

30 minutes ago, scubadragosan said:

Use of ADA Title 3 where EUCs are ban--San Francisco Angel Island! We are both seniors in our 60s! Check out the brief dialogue we had with park ranger re-stated. Laws/regulations are really outdated. On this island, we saw use of rental bicycles and supposedly also have Segway tours. We have to say the views from Angel Island in everywhich way are breathtaking. If you don't have a medical condition, please don't abuse this privilege We calculated if you want to follow the two circular paths around the island, walking would take 8-10 hours. With EUCs, it can easily be done at a leisure pace within 2-3 hours. Thanks to our KS18S and InMotion V10F!

 

Whoops! I haven't watch your video yet but thank you for sharing the information. I will update the first post with your information later.

ps. Nice water proof mods you have there! It seems able to handle the ocean floor so well 

[Scubadragonsan]

Hmmm... An amphibious wheel... the next generation! Down payment ready for pre-order!

[FlyboyEUC]

This just in! Probably only in high foot traffic areas.

[Elder Meat]

There are no state-wide laws regulating bicycles (and other personal devices); it's up to individual municipalities to enact codes. In this case SDMC 84.09 regulates bicycles and 84.12 regulates everything else. Here's 84.12 in its entirety:

(a) It is unlawful for any person riding on roller skates or by means of a coaster, skateboard, toy vehicle, or similar device to go upon an open roadway in the City of San Diego, or upon the sidewalk or public plaza in any business district, or upon any inclined surface area of any City–owned or privately owned parkade where signs forbidding such activity are displayed at the ground level elevator entrance and at each vehicular entrance to the parkade.

b) Between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m., it is unlawful for any person riding on or by means of a coaster, skateboard, toy vehicle, or similar device to go upon: (1) any portion of public rights–of–way within the Mission Beach community, as defined by the Community Planning Area Map, as designated on Map Drawing No. C–637.1, on file in the office of the City Clerk as Document No. 768482; or, (2) any portion of the most westerly public walkway between San Diego Place on the south and Law Street on the north, known as Ocean Front Walk or Ocean Boulevard, or to go upon the public walkway immediately adjacent to the bay extending from the Mission Beach community, around Sail Bay, through Crown Point Shores, as designated on the map on file in the office of the City Clerk as Document No. 00–18425.

(c) Any person upon roller skates or riding on or by means of a coaster, skateboard, toy vehicle or similar device on any sidewalk or right of way not open to public vehicular traffic shall exercise due care and shall yield the right of way to pedestrians.

(d) No person shall go upon roller skates or ride on or by means of a coaster, skateboard, toy vehicle or similar device on any sidewalk or right of way not open to public vehicular traffic at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent having due regard for pedestrian traffic and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property.

(e) Except for school–sanctioned events authorized by a school site administrator, no person shall ride any skateboard, roller– blade, roller–skate or similar type device on any property owned by any school district which has a policy prohibiting such use, and display

[Kens]

1 hour ago, Elder Meat said:

There are no state-wide laws regulating bicycles (and other personal devices); it's up to individual municipalities to enact codes. In this case SDMC 84.09 regulates bicycles and 84.12 regulates everything else. Here's 84.12 in its entirety:

(a) It is unlawful for any person riding on roller skates or by means of a coaster, skateboard, toy vehicle, or similar device to go upon an open roadway in the City of San Diego, or upon the sidewalk or public plaza in any business district, or upon any inclined surface area of any City–owned or privately owned parkade where signs forbidding such activity are displayed at the ground level elevator entrance and at each vehicular entrance to the parkade.

b) Between the hours of 10:00 p.m. and 7:00 a.m., it is unlawful for any person riding on or by means of a coaster, skateboard, toy vehicle, or similar device to go upon: (1) any portion of public rights–of–way within the Mission Beach community, as defined by the Community Planning Area Map, as designated on Map Drawing No. C–637.1, on file in the office of the City Clerk as Document No. 768482; or, (2) any portion of the most westerly public walkway between San Diego Place on the south and Law Street on the north, known as Ocean Front Walk or Ocean Boulevard, or to go upon the public walkway immediately adjacent to the bay extending from the Mission Beach community, around Sail Bay, through Crown Point Shores, as designated on the map on file in the office of the City Clerk as Document No. 00–18425.

(c) Any person upon roller skates or riding on or by means of a coaster, skateboard, toy vehicle or similar device on any sidewalk or right of way not open to public vehicular traffic shall exercise due care and shall yield the right of way to pedestrians.

(d) No person shall go upon roller skates or ride on or by means of a coaster, skateboard, toy vehicle or similar device on any sidewalk or right of way not open to public vehicular traffic at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent having due regard for pedestrian traffic and in no event at a speed which endangers the safety of persons or property.

(e) Except for school–sanctioned events authorized by a school site administrator, no person shall ride any skateboard, roller– blade, roller–skate or similar type device on any property owned by any school district which has a policy prohibiting such use, and display

So the only difference is no riding EUC on the sidewalk and plaza right? That "toy vehicle" and "similar device" is really vague and broad..

[gon2fast]

I was out searching for new trails earlier today in Northern Marin County. After finding a few trails associated with a local community college I headed in that direction. When I got to multiple trail heads I found updated "No Motor Vehicle" signs -

I generally do not pay too much mind to the older signs, but this new big red sign mixed with uppity hikers makes me worry (so much that I did not venture up these trails in fear of a verbal lashing). 

What would you do? 

I did a little bit of research and found that this really applies to cars/trucks and that PEVs really do not fall into this category. Still not wanting to have that conversation with an uppity hiker or agitated Park Ranger.

[Tawpie]

Tell them it's your personal assistive mobility device, allowed by the Americans With Disabilities act. An electric wheelchair is allowed... The wheel isn't gas powered so the tree huggers (I'm one of those BTW) are happy... less pissed. If they get nasty, apologize and retreat... on foot.

Mostly don't go ripping by them with any kind of speed... I dismount and wait for horses to pass, and announce myself to all feet people with a cheery "good morning! I'm going to sneak by on your left".

Act like you belong.

You don't have to disclose your disability BTW, HIPAA rules.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Tawpie

[UniBlab]

Carry copies of the attached file and hand them out to anyone that give scrutiny - and Tawpie is correct - you don't have to disclose any disability.

"Choice of Device - People with disabilities have the right to choose whatever mobility device best suits their needs."

 

opdmd.pdf

Edited April 1, 2022 by UniBlab
added quote

[VikB]

I would stay off a trail marked as No Motorized Vehicles if I was riding my EUC. 

[gon2fast]

17 minutes ago, VikB said:

No Motorized Vehicles

"Motor Vehicles" is the actual verbiage (which is very confusing), but if it stated "motorized" then it would for sure be a no go for my wheels. Wildfires are a big concern here in CA so I would assume this sign is for vehicles that could start fires via exhaust pipe or spark. Unfortunately I can't truthfully tell a random hiker that my device is any safer. 

[FlyboyEUC]

I generally look up the codes on the bottom of the signs if I really want to ride beyond the sign. That way if someone asks, I can tell them. Depending on others on the trail, it might just not be worth it. 

My favorite signs are the ones that says no motorized devices, that means grandma won't be able to join us on her scooter or wheelchair, and that a 4 yr old can't ride the power wheels either. Sorry guys, the sign says....

The biggest thing as stated before, is to be as kind and courteous as possible. Slow down near people and give them plenty of room. Give a smile or friendly gesture to let them know you are human and enjoy seeing them. 

[Tawpie]

hmmm. Might be best to say away (depending on how CA law defines a "vehicle"...), and don't drive your horse or donkey there either. Or carry the ADA paperwork.

VEHICLE CODE - VEH

DIVISION 11. RULES OF THE ROAD [21000 - 23336]

  ( Division 11 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

  CHAPTER 1. Obedience to and Effect of Traffic Laws [21000 - 21300]

  ( Chapter 1 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

  

ARTICLE 3. Local Regulation [21100 - 21118]

  ( Article 3 enacted by Stats. 1959, Ch. 3. )

  21113.  

(a) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), a person shall not drive a vehicle or animal, or stop, park, or leave standing a vehicle or animal, whether attended or unattended, upon the driveways, paths, parking facilities, or the grounds of any of the following:

[gon2fast]

I went to get pictures of the old signs that were posted at the trails near my house and they have been removed or painted over*

"No motorized vehicles" sign removed. There were other entrances altered in the same way

The sign next to the dog poop instructions used to be the no motorized vehicle sign.

Hopefully the city/county is starting to adapt to the influx of PEVs. 

 

* looks like the local youth may have added some paint to it as well LOL 

[mhpr262]

The reason motorized vehicles arent allowed on such trails is noise and worries about the trails getting damaged. Neither is a worry with EUC as long as you dont pull a Chooch and ride reasonably, especially around other people on the path. Meaning not faster than leisurely bicycle speeds at most (12-14mph).