V8 2nd battery vs upgrade?

[eucinsea]

I am thinking about upgrading my v8 to maybe a kingsong 16x. However I rode my buddies Nikola last weekend and its a beast. From what have read the ks16x is going to be the same size as Nikola. 

The only reason I want to upgrade is range. As I love my v8 and how nimble it is around town. So now I am wondering if I should just consider getting a 2nd battery for my v8 and swapping out when on long rides. 

[atdlzpae]

Nikola is 1 inch bigger.

Swapping batteries in a middle of a ride will get tiring pretty quickly. Especially since you need to unscrew the damn thing first. :-)

And disconnecting/connecting/replacing the battery will slowly put a strain on it. It's not like a laptop battery - these things are pretty fragile when out of an enclosure.

Either modify your wheel to house two batteries at once [like this guy who made a 784Wh Ninebot E+ https://forum.ecojazda.pl/index.php/start/ninebot-one/439-ninebot-e-784wh-wrazenia-po-1000-km] or buy a better wheel. Swapping battery frequently is not a good idea. :-)

[uekarashi]

Some things to consider:

1. the Nikola is dang near 54lbs while the V8 is 30lbs - the lift switches on both are decent, but if stairs are a regular part of your life the Nikola will begin to feel fairly burdensome  

1. the battery for the V8 is no featherweight itself, and will need to be carried on long rides - but if you need to carry the wheel on its own around town often, it's worth considering that even the extra battery won't bring the total package to anywhere near the weight of the Nikola. That said, 2 batteries on the V8 will get you 960Wh and the Nikola comes with 1600Wh, so if you're riding with more than a few >1200Wh wheels on a group ride and they want to go hard and far, the low battery power limitations of the V8 may start to be felt. @hyperair knows more about this than I do.

2. whether or not you'll be taking long rides frequently - it's not high effort to swap the batteries, but if you haven't got a good space to do it in (eg if you ride offroad trails frequently, etc.), it could be a little inconvenient. partner has taken a spare battery and swapped it during a long ride, and it took about 15 minutes, so this also relies on if a group you're riding with is happy to slack around while you do  

3. as for whether frequent battery swaps are a good idea or not, the InMotion V8 was specifically marketed as being 'yay swap batteries easily', and it is in fact enclosed quite nicely - it's all of 8 or 6 6 or 4 Philips screws depending which iteration of the wheel you have, IIRC. eWheels has a nice video: https://www.ewheels.com/product/v8-480wh-removeable-battery-pack/

Hope these points help  

Edited June 14, 2019 by uekarashi
forgot numbers

[Mono]

On 6/14/2019 at 2:52 AM, uekarashi said:

Some things to consider:

1. the Nikola is dang near 54lbs while the V8 is 30lbs - the lift switches on both are decent, but if stairs are a regular part of your life the Nikola will begin to feel fairly burdensome  

1. the battery for the V8 is no featherweight itself

Mine weighs 2.4kg, that is nominal about 1kg per 200Wh, though I feel that the overall capacity is closer to 400Wh than to 500Wh.

On 6/14/2019 at 2:52 AM, uekarashi said:

and will need to be carried on long rides - but if you need to carry the wheel on its own around town often, it's worth considering that even the extra battery won't bring the total package to anywhere near the weight of the Nikola. That said, 2 batteries on the V8 will get you 960Wh and the Nikola comes with 1600Wh, so if you're riding with more than a few >1200Wh wheels on a group ride and they want to go hard and far, the low battery power limitations of the V8 may start to be felt. @hyperair knows more about this than I do.

2. whether or not you'll be taking long rides frequently - it's not high effort to swap the batteries, but if you haven't got a good space to do it in (eg if you ride offroad trails frequently, etc.), it could be a little inconvenient. partner has taken a spare battery and swapped it during a long ride, and it took about 15 minutes, so this also relies on if a group you're riding with is happy to slack around while you do  

3. as for whether frequent battery swaps are a good idea or not, the InMotion V8 was specifically marketed as being 'yay swap batteries easily'

only before its release, so it seems InMotion change their mind and/or design regarding the swappability

On 6/14/2019 at 2:52 AM, uekarashi said:

and it is in fact enclosed quite nicely - it's all of 8 or 6 6 or 4 Philips screws depending which iteration of the wheel you have, IIRC. eWheels has a nice video: https://www.ewheels.com/product/v8-480wh-removeable-battery-pack/

The vid only shows how to remove the side cover which is IMHO the smaller part of the work to remove the battery.

 

 

[Rywokast]

that sounds like hell tbh.. the batteries aren't meant to be swappable and opening up the wheel while out on a ride?? it sucks enough when you're at home can't imagine doing that outside all the time.. not to mention you would get a lot more fun miles on a single 960 wh battery than two 480s as the firmware will make you go an annoying speed once it's starts to get low.. you should just upgrade to a faster, stronger wheel with more battery.. if you want to keep it light and portable then something like a 16s, mcm5, or tesla is great.. if you don't mind a larger, heavier wheel you can't go wrong with 1600+ most people won't ever even use the whole battery in one go you should be able to get at least 80 km depending on your weight.. I can easily get over 100

[eucinsea]

I solved my distance issue by pre-ordering a batch2 Kingsong 16x.  

 

ill still use my V8 more around town for quick trips but group and long rides will be for the 70mile range 16x. 

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, prasket said:

I solved my distance issue by pre-ordering a batch2 Kingsong 16x.  

 

ill still use my V8 more around town for quick trips but group and long rides will be for the 70mile range 16x. 

awesome.. you wont regret it.. if at all possible multiple wheels is always the best way to go.. its impossible for one wheel to be good at everything, at minimum every serious rider should have two wheels imo, one small and portable, and one serious long distance/fast wheel.. there are many other reasons to have even more than two wheels if you want to get down to the nitty gritty but thats generally reserved for the people who are crazy euc addicts

[alcatraz]

I built a new battery for my V8. Now I have 50+% more range and it's still relatively light.

I can push the wheel more now since I got more cells in parallell that can provide more current without as big of a voltage drop. The wheel feels nice and fresh.

It's a bit tricky to build. There's no denying that.

I could buy a 16X or Nikola too but I'm reluctant because of weight/size and not to be ignored: extra speed. I'm not sure if I can contain myself and stay safe on the road. I ride the V8 without protection and I'd rather keep that freedom even though it costs me a few km/h. I'd waste time carrying and putting on protective gear with a faster wheel. It's an odd kind of life insurance to refrain from upgrading.

Edited August 20, 2019 by alcatraz

[atdlzpae]

Don't worry about buying a better wheel.

You can always set tiltbacks and limit your speed. Gotway is better when it comes to tiltbacks, they're less noticable.

For grocery shopping just wear wristguards. They are tiny and they take no time (I put mine on when I'm riding - no time lost). And they are most important.

Full gear (helmet+knees+ankles+wrists) only for long/fast/offroad rides.

Edited August 20, 2019 by atdlzpae

[KAY GEE]

2 hours ago, alcatraz said:

I built a new battery for my V8. Now I have 50+% more range and it's still relatively light.

I can push the wheel more now since I got more cells in parallell that can provide more current without as big of a voltage drop. The wheel feels nice and fresh.

It's a bit tricky to build. There's no denying that.

I could buy a 16X or Nikola too but I'm reluctant because of weight/size and not to be ignored: extra speed. I'm not sure if I can contain myself and stay safe on the road. I ride the V8 without protection and I'd rather keep that freedom even though it costs me a few km/h. I'd waste time carrying and putting on protective gear with a faster wheel. It's an odd kind of life insurance to refrain from upgrading.

Can you please give us details on your battery mod?

[atdlzpae]

All battery mods are the same: BMS + 18650 for appropriate voltage + XT60  + some soldering. :-)

First result in google:

 

[Rywokast]

1 minute ago, atdlzpae said:

All battery mods are the same: BMS + 18650 for appropriate voltage + XT60  + some soldering. :-)

First result in google:

 

you should definitely sell those  bet you there would be a ton of interest

[alcatraz]

43 minutes ago, KAY GEE said:

Can you please give us details on your battery mod?

You need a few things, and patience.

1. Multimeter - 10usd?

2. 18650 charger with capacity measurement - 10usd? Liitokala 500

3. Spotwelder - cheapo ~ 40usd

4. Nickel strips, I used 6x0.15mm and ran it side by side (better welding with gap between spotweld electrodes). I reckon limit 6 amps per strip so I ran at least 4 strips ~ 24 amps for short connections and 5 strips for longer ~30 amps. Heat = bad. A big roll was like 10usd. Enough for several packs.

5. Balance wires. 5x4S for external balancing. Didn't really need this but I like my pack balanced. I got a cheap 4s high voltage precision hobby charger (balance lead charging only). Wires ~ 2usd? Charger ~15usd

6. Soldering iron ~ 5 usd?

7. 20-25 extra LG MH1 cells. I got 30 of them used but in near new condition for ~40usd. The rest of the 35-40 cells you can harvest from the old pack. Ideally to save time just order like 63-65 cells to ensure you have 60 matched ones. Then you save time.

8. Some blue shrinkwrap, tape, protective isolation paper wrap, adhesive paper washers to put on top of the cells. ~10usd?

9. Glue gun. 5 usd?

10. Patience

Check cells for damage/capacity/self discharge. Repair/arrange them. Use the glue gun to fix the cells together in a configuration that fits the cavity. Arrange them in groups of 3s. After spotwelding together the terminals protect them from accidental contact by covering them with tape. Solder balance leads to bms. Shrinkwrap. Enjoy. This took me several days. I had a spare V8 battery pack to play with so I didn't have to rush.

Edited August 20, 2019 by alcatraz

[Rywokast]

5 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

You need a few things, and patience.

1. Multimeter - 10usd?

2. 18650 charger with capacity measurement - 10usd? Liitokala 500

3. Spotwelder - cheapo ~ 40usd

4. Nickel strips, I used 6x0.15mm and ran it side by side (better welding with gap between spotweld electrodes). I reckon limit 6 amps per strip so I ran at least 4 strips ~ 24 amps for short connections and 5 strips for longer ~30 amps. Heat = bad. A big roll was like 10usd. Enough for several packs.

5. Balance wires. 5x4S for external balancing. Didn't really need this but I like my pack balanced. I got a cheap 4s high voltage precision hobby charger (balance lead charging only). Wires ~ 2usd? Charger ~15usd

6. Soldering iron ~ 5 usd?

7. 20-25 extra LG MH1 cells. I got 30 of them used but in near new condition for ~40usd. The rest of the 35-40 cells you can harvest from the old pack. Ideally to save time just order like 63-65 cells to ensure you have 60 matched ones. Then you save time.

8. Some blue shrinkwrap, tape, protective isolation paper wrap, adhesive paper washers to put on top of the cells. ~10usd?

9. Glue gun. 5 usd?

10. Patience

Check cells for damage/capacity/self discharge. Repair/arrange them. Use the glue gun to fix the cells together in a configuration that fits the cavity. Arrange them in groups of 3s. After spotwelding together the terminals protect them from accidental contact by covering them with tape. Solder balance leads to bms. Shrinkwrap. Enjoy. This took me several days. I had a spare V8 battery pack to play with so I didn't have to rush.

its true for most things, that you can usually do it for cheaper yourself, but then again its true as well that most people are either unskilled or unwilling to do something like this, and would much rather simply buy it from someone.... somebody needs to get on this and make custom packs, they could make a killing.. this is the only one i know of doing it but sadly only for ninebot

[alcatraz]

I don't mind some tinkering but I had never built a pack before. I basically spent 1-2 years occasionally watching youtube videos of people building packs and powerwalls.

I think I got the basic hang of it but I'm sure a pro would laugh if they saw me actually doing it. I took my time because I didn't want to burn down my home. I'm happy the pack hasn't shorted internally. That was my biggest fear. Luckily I never had to throw it into the shower

Building the pack (spotwelding, handling it before it was finished) was a bit like riding an EUC in busy traffic. My mind was constantly thinking "oh shit, oh shit" don't short anything out.

Edited August 20, 2019 by alcatraz

[alcatraz]

You need the original bms in a v8 battery pack. That's why it's basically a DIY job.

[KAY GEE]

1 hour ago, alcatraz said:

You need a few things, and patience.

1. Multimeter - 10usd?

2. 18650 charger with capacity measurement - 10usd? Liitokala 500

3. Spotwelder - cheapo ~ 40usd

4. Nickel strips, I used 6x0.15mm and ran it side by side (better welding with gap between spotweld electrodes). I reckon limit 6 amps per strip so I ran at least 4 strips ~ 24 amps for short connections and 5 strips for longer ~30 amps. Heat = bad. A big roll was like 10usd. Enough for several packs.

5. Balance wires. 5x4S for external balancing. Didn't really need this but I like my pack balanced. I got a cheap 4s high voltage precision hobby charger (balance lead charging only). Wires ~ 2usd? Charger ~15usd

6. Soldering iron ~ 5 usd?

7. 20-25 extra LG MH1 cells. I got 30 of them used but in near new condition for ~40usd. The rest of the 35-40 cells you can harvest from the old pack. Ideally to save time just order like 63-65 cells to ensure you have 60 matched ones. Then you save time.

8. Some blue shrinkwrap, tape, protective isolation paper wrap, adhesive paper washers to put on top of the cells. ~10usd?

9. Glue gun. 5 usd?

10. Patience

Check cells for damage/capacity/self discharge. Repair/arrange them. Use the glue gun to fix the cells together in a configuration that fits the cavity. Arrange them in groups of 3s. After spotwelding together the terminals protect them from accidental contact by covering them with tape. Solder balance leads to bms. Shrinkwrap. Enjoy. This took me several days. I had a spare V8 battery pack to play with so I didn't have to rush.

Thanks a lot for the information. So what is your total battery pack now?

[alcatraz]

The cells are used so it's not exactly 720Ah but judging by the measured capacity numbers its still over 700Ah. Sure if you use NCR18650GA cells you can get the same pack to 780Ah.

Either case the range increases by more than 50% when going from 40 to 60 cells because more cells are less stressed. When they are charged and discharged slower they last longer, both in life cycles and in capacity. The wheel feels stronger too because the voltage doesn't drop as much when accelerating.

I don't often discharge deeply except when going to work in winter. A workplace I have is a 20km round trip. When the temperature is 20C below zero the packs effective range is cut to 2/3. (I sometimes arrive home with 1 bar). The last stretch coming home is done at a seemingly snail pace. That's what I want to avoid, hitting 2 bars where the top speed is reduced a lot. 3 is not too bad. I try to stay between 5 and 3. It's a bit poorly designed because 2 bars means you still nearly have half the charge left. I'm hoping the wheel becomes more usable with 2 bars now than it was before.

Edited August 20, 2019 by alcatraz

[h3X]

7 hours ago, alcatraz said:

You need the original bms in a v8 battery pack. That's why it's basically a DIY job.

Why can't you use a normal supower or similar bms?

[atdlzpae]

You can. :-)

But you need to make sure that it has enough amps.

[alcatraz]

There are some wires apart from the xt60, that connect the battery to the mainboard. With a 3rd party bms those wouldn't be there. I don't know what they are for.

Also third party bms's need to be safe for euc use. Some literally cut out to try and protect the battery - faceplant.

[h3X]

10 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Some literally cut out

You can always discharge directly from the battery (bypassing the bms) and only charge through the bms. That would still balance the cells often enough.

[alcatraz]

Good idea!

I've seen some burned bms circuits boards too. It's maybe a bit tricky to know which one is reliable without overpaying.

Edited August 21, 2019 by alcatraz

[leadfeathers]

Is the original pack in 20s2p?  I'm confused about the 4s balancing part.  In 4s, your voltage is 14.4V/16.8V (nominal/peak).  I thought that for 84V, you'd be looking at a string of 20 or 24 batteries (not sure which..).  Wouldn't you need a BMS that is 20s to handle balancing along the entire string?

Edited August 26, 2019 by leadfeathers

[atdlzpae]

Yes, you either need a 20s BMS or multiple BMS'es connected in series. :-)