Sharing experience with (Russian) Swallowbot

[trevmar]

I have a question for those of you who use a copy of Swallowbot -- What do you think of it?

I finally got the Swallowbot CPU from MRN76 working. It announces itself to the app as "v7.6.0"? Yet I see some of the YouTube videos with different version numbers? Any idea why the difference? (AFAIK, WEagle95 only ever posted notice of one development release).

The problem I have with it stems from the underlying Ninebot 1.3.0 firmware. I hated this firmware with passion - and changed all my machines back to 1.1.7 (using the JTAG method and the software from MRN76). What I hate is the progressive tilt-back. As you get towards the load limit the feet are incrementally tilted back, little by little, and if you struggle against this to accelerate you get to the point where the platform tilts back violently with beeping, at that point pretty close to tipping you right off. The older firmware versions (up to at least 1.1.9) do not do that. 

Whenever I go uphill, Swallowbot does this too. Swallowbot does suppress the final violent attempt to throw you off while beeping, but the slowly tilting back platform during uphill acceleration is just the same, and just as annoying. Going on flat surfaces, or downhill, Swallowbot is effortless, and a pleasure to ride.Has anybody figured out a way to manage the uphill grades?

Interestingly, the Chinese 'ripoff-bot' firmware does not do this. It announces itself as v1.1.1, and does indeed seem based on this initial firmware.  I haven't been able to test its maximum speed, but it is extremely gentle when it tilts after reaching load limit uphill. A pleasure to ride (if you aren't bothered by all the beeping). It seems to have the same high performance at lower battery levels as the Swallowbot.

Currently I have Swallowbot in one miniPRO, Ripoff-Bot in another, and v1.1.7 in the miniPRO with knobbly tyres. Each has benefits and each its disadvantages.

What have I forgotten??

[jojo33]

Have you tried adjusting the balancing sensor parameters to positive values?
This tilts the platform forward and the tiltback is felt less hard

original value (factory parameters) were -0,8, try gradually to -0,3, -0,1, +0,1, etc

Edited June 12, 2019 by jojo33

[trevmar]

12 hours ago, jojo33 said:

Have you tried adjusting the balancing sensor parameters to positive values?
This tilts the platform forward and the tiltback is felt less hard original value (factory parameters) were -0,8, try gradually to -0,3, -0,1, +0,1, etc

Jojo, I have an old version of the app, (v4.4.6), so the balance slider goes from 0 to 5, with 3.2 recommended. I set it to 5 (maximum) and put my feet further forward on the machine. Although I feel a little more secure, the "rolling" of the platform's balance point as I get near to maximum load is very unsettling. It seems as though Alex&Alex didn't change that function of firmware v1,3 at all. They did reduce the aggressive pushback at maximum load, however (for me, at about 10Kph uphill on our 12 degree grades).. No wonder these users who don't have 1.1.7 (or similar) firmware available are complaining so bitterly about their machines (running 1.3/1.4)!

I did achieve a significant change in downhill performance by enabling the Speed Limit button for a few seconds. It looks as though that is something which needs to be done as 'initialization' of the Swallowbot installation. I have already changed from my "manual ride smoothness" to "automatic" and that seemed to change a little. I left the steering sensitivity on 'Automatic'.

ps: This v4.4.6 version of the app is the only one I have ever got going, and it is in a spare Nexus-5X without cell service. All my active phones are Rooted and secured, and I haven't been able to get the Segway app to install in them

pps: I am starting to become quite firm with my theory that the v1.1.1 Chinese 'Ripoff-bot' firmware may indeed be the firmware initially signed off by the initial development group, before marketing were given the chance to cripple the machine with speed limits, etc... If the rumor you heard was true, that the initial firmware was written by one developer in his school holidays (which is feasible, IMO) then the Ripoff-bot firmware will have to be renamed to something like 'Retrobot.'  I am happy with that Chinese firmware, incidentally, so maybe we should start coming up with some better names for it

pps: DId you ever see any firmware released from Ninebot lower than 1.1.7?

Edited June 13, 2019 by trevmar

[trevmar]

Jojo - It looks like all the Ebay and Amazon sellers have removed their Retro-bot control boards from sale in the last few hours from both Ebay and Amazon. This is a pity, as I am very happy with the v1.1.1 firmware they were shipping. The Russian Swallowbot seems to have gone defunct too - I can't send a message to @MRN76 any more, and @WEagle95 hasn't posted for months.

Edited June 13, 2019 by trevmar

[jojo33]

5 hours ago, trevmar said:

If the rumor you heard was true, that the initial firmware was written by one developer in his school holidays

Ninebot was a startup at the begining, 

Here in the 2013 video, if im not mistaken, you have the first modele of Ninebot in 2013, it's the same who appear into "Mini Design History"

The engineer Wang and his team has worked a lot, they were students, a year and a half on the machine, the firmware of the first personal transporter (Elite etc.) has been adapted and improved.

The original technology remains the property of DEAN KAMEN,
the patents have been "rented" by Ninebot
that's what I saw in a judgment released by the US authorities, we must look far into the site to find the information (US International Trade Commission (USITC)
When we found the downgrade solution, what was obvious was that the update method was very basic and easy to hijack, indeed it could only be a student work,
but the firmware is very sophisticated, there is a dark side too...the influence of the Chinese army on the development of firmwares, since the first Elite models equipped the Chinese army....

on http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2015/0369629.html you can find valuable in-depth information about the program

Wang is a great person he is very approachable, he will not hesitate to answer questions, I think he is aware of all these alternative solutions

5 hours ago, trevmar said:

DId you ever see any firmware released from Ninebot lower than 1.1.7?

Yes before V117, when i bought my Mini N3M240, im not remember but was an old firmware, we have an unlocked speedlimit popup message when we ride more than 50KM, at tjis moment 18KmH was really 18KmH and not under the real speed showing by the app

You could try using Ninedroid app too

 

Edited June 13, 2019 by jojo33

[MRN76]

Hello. Rollback to firmware 1.1.7. so all at your own risk.
http://mrn76.ru/NineTool.rar
(bet beta 2.2.0)
For firmware, you need the version to be higher than 1.4.0 (Should work with 1.4.0 1.4.1 1.5.5 1.6.0 1.6.2 1.6.5)
Connect to the device, enter Enter 117 for the text space and press Flash FW

[trevmar]

@MRN76 Great to hear from you again! With now an Android rollback app! Impressive!

Was there some reason the message system would not deliver messages to you last week?

[Toni JL]

Hace 12 horas, MRN76 dijo:

Hola. Rollback al firmware 1.1.7. Así que todo bajo su propio riesgo.
http://mrn76.ru/NineTool.rar
(bet beta 2.2.0)
Para el firmware, necesita que la versión sea superior a 1.4.0 (Debería funcionar con 1.4.0 1.4.1 1.5.5 1.6.0 1.6. 2 1.6.5)
Conéctese al dispositivo, ingrese Ingrese 117 para el espacio de texto y presione Flash FW

Grande MRN76 !!! Siento la pregunta pero ... ¿Hay algo o habrá algo que funcione para mi Ninebot Mini PLUS ( n4m350)? Gracias de antemano. Eternamente agradecido.

[Tommy Hilfaker]

Thanks for the rollback App.

@MRN76

Do you heard something about about the "storm" against the "swallowbot"-boards from Ninebot?

Is it possible to write back own edited firmwares with your tool or is it just compatible with officials?

 

EDIT:

Are you sure your tool getting work with miniPro? Your official thread says "No, MiniPro is Alexej's project and only his app works with this model".

 

EDIT2:

Worked.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Tommy Hilfaker

[trevmar]

@MRN76Excellent Bluetooth flashing app. I see you successfully cracked the Ninebot upgrade coding so that the machines will accept update code. Great work!

Looking at the .apk resources, I see you support one firmware code for the 'MiniPRO' - v1.1.7. But I see the app also supports 1.0.8 and 7.6.0 for the 'Mark2', three versions for the 'One' and 11 versions for the 'Zx'.  You have been busy!

I guess I dug into your app half hoping I might find Swallowbot there, but no Swallowbot.  I have my own copy now, but I keep hoping for a public release... Maybe then I will invest the time to take a closer look at the incremental platform tilt which is still present when going uphill on Swallowbot...

I notice that the encoded images are only 48K, rather than the CPU 256K. That's pretty efficient coding!  But, on reflection, a heck of a lot of the memory space is empty (FF).

Once again, thanks for all your great work! I just wish you were taking advantage of your current lead with the miniPRO Swallowbot development... The World is clearly ready for a public release... or for a public 'open development' to try and keep the platform alive...

Edited June 17, 2019 by trevmar

[Tommy Hilfaker]

I never had the 1.1.7 installed on my board before: Very nice feeling driving with it! Slow but nice speedup, makes me better controlling. The push back isn't such so extremly hard like in 1.4.0. Uphill is a lil bit faster but the push back is strange. It beeps 3 or 4 times and push you back (very gently) and then it seems that the whole board stops pushing and i think i falling at the front. Very strange feeling after driving the 1.4.0 over 1 year.

[trevmar]

Yes, and version 1,1,9 is also the same behavior, but with some minor bug fixes. I like them both (can't tell the difference), but the pushback is still too extreme for an experienced rider. Both Russian Swallowbot and Chinese Ripoff-bot do not push back aggressively at any point, but Swallowbot has the bad habit of incrementally slowly tipping back the platform under heavy load (uphill).

[Tommy Hilfaker]

Came back right now from a 20km tour: Perfect! Absolutely perfect! Straight and downhill are so fucking great driving i wont never changing to another one.......only if the maximum speed increase

[trevmar]

Tommy, are you suggesting that the v1.1.7 which @MRN76 just posted has had the pushback neutered in some way? Did you experience pushback? Low battery issues?

[Tommy Hilfaker]

The pushback is really soft at downhill AND on straight driving. Only uphill is not perfect (pushback soft....then after 2 or 3 Sec stops tue pushback complete, then again...pushback soft, after 2 or 3 sec....and so on) but now after my long travel i can handle this good and i am faster on hills than ever before.

 

The battery seems to have a better management: It takes longer time before losing the first of the 5 points of MiniPro. And i think i am a lil bit faster.

[trevmar]

Tommy, Yes, I agree, I think @MRN76 has dropped another gem into our laps here. Pushback is much the same uphill, but my first impression is that I get a little more power before pushback. I will measure that more accurately tomorrow. I never saw pushback downhill or on the flat, but I tend to be a very cautious rider 

However, I checked the binary firmware dumps of what was installed into my miniPRO with this new app against the version 1.1.7 which @MRN76 puts in his Ninebot_v300.exe package  (which he previously distributed to change miniPRO firmware with JTAG). It is different, significantly different, with many variables having been changed. Also, the binary firmware is different from Swallowbot (not surprising, since Swallowbot is based on v1.3.0). Finally the CPU is not read-protected so that I can easily examine the code and move it to other machines (with the Ninebot_v300 package to change serial number and CPU ID code).

I am hoping that the impressions from my initial ride - which were essentially the same as Tommy reported, do in fact confirm that this represents improved firmware. It seems a gem, a little raw perhaps, needing polishing, but capable of great things  See what you think!

 

ps: Put the "117" into the app box marked "ENTER CODE" then press the app button to start Flashing... At about the 52% mark I received an error popup saying "invalid floating point exception" but the flashing continued and the flashed code seems to work OK, and looks OK when I examine the binary dump. Don't forget to initialize the miniPRO by turning it upside down when you first switch the machine on after the flashing process.

pps: note that the app has a page telling you how to make donations to @MRN76

Edited June 20, 2019 by trevmar

[Tommy Hilfaker]

Had the same error popup, but MRN76 told that in the official thread of his app that could be happen, so i wasn't very surprised and waited till the end of the flash process.

[Bryan Anton]

Where do I get this firmware, Swallowbot I'm guessing,  and how do I use it?  I have a Ninebot minipro by Segway and want to remove the speed limiter that cause the warning sounds and automatically tilts the ride back.  I've been to mimod.ru and can't seem to find it.  Also, I don't have much experience with this type of stuff so any pointers would be appreciated.  Thank you

[Tommy Hilfaker]

@Brian Anton

You are one of the fourth in the last few weeks who asking the same questions again and again.

I think it is better you read on mimod.ru or here in the commercial sub again.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Tommy Hilfaker

[trevmar]

@Tommy Hilfaker Last night I rode the Chinese Ripoff-bot v1.1.1 firmware specifically to compare it to Ninebot v1.1.7.

It has a slightly softer pushback and a faster beep. Between 1.1.1 and 1.1.7 Ninebot added the "Ride Control" or 'balance status' upgrade, adaptive headlights, and a number of other locking-related changes. Below are forum posts (from long ago) describing v1.1.1 and v1.1.7

I am coming to the conclusion that v1.1.1, which was released at almost the same time as the initial shipment of miniPRO from Ninebot in Nov 2015, was a pretty stable firmware. I am trying to ride it enough to get to the 50Km mark, to make sure that any limitations on the platform have been removed (they used to limit speeds, etc, until riders became 'experienced'). At this point I am thinking the v1.1.1 firmware on the control boards shipped from China may not have been hacked in any way. It is still very interesting to me, as I think it marks the beginning of the 'enhancements' of the platform away from the 'purity' of the original development team. It certainly is comfortable to ride.

Edited June 23, 2019 by trevmar

[Tommy Hilfaker]

@trevmar

Interesting! I am very excited to hear if there are any more limitations will be removed....i think not at the speed anymore cause i am riding 18,4km/h right now at maximum with higher profile tires.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Tommy Hilfaker

[MacGary]

On 6/16/2019 at 10:12 PM, MRN76 said:

Hello. Rollback to firmware 1.1.7. so all at your own risk.
http://mrn76.ru/NineTool.rar
(bet beta 2.2.0)
For firmware, you need the version to be higher than 1.4.0 (Should work with 1.4.0 1.4.1 1.5.5 1.6.0 1.6.2 1.6.5)
Connect to the device, enter Enter 117 for the text space and press Flash FW

After 1,5 year and more than 1500km on 1.4.0 and almost lost of hope I have finally been able to try this widely recommended 1.1.7 on my mini. Feels completely different without all those speed penalties, much smoother pushback, not mentioning uphills. Thank You!! @MRN76 

Still the imposed max speed cap is frustrating so hoping this will be a step to provide Swallowbot firmware the same way soon... as you do with modifications for one-wheelers. Valounteering to test and pay whatever reasonably necessary if ever possible.

[trevmar]

I have given up on Swallowbot for the time-being. The gradual tip-back of the platform as I get close to the uphill speed/load limit is just too hard to get used to. I couldn't handle the Ninebot v1.3.0 for the same reason.

In contrast, the Ripoff-bot v1.1.1 from China is getting more and more comfortable as I continue to ride it. When it reaches the uphill speed/load limit the machine beeps and the bar tips back gradually and gently - but you can ignore it as the speed itself is lowered without you having to change your balance Very nice indeed, it takes away the stress driving up steep slopes.

I still haven't made up my mind whether this Ripoff-bot firmware is hacked, or just whether v1.1.1 was so very good. In any case, I like everything I have seen (I haven't tried to run on one battery bar yet, or to test its maximum speed on flat ground).

Edited June 26, 2019 by trevmar

[Tommy Hilfaker]

@trevmar

So, if the chinese firmware would have a speed increase, you would say it is the perfect firmware for MiniPro? Sounds good to me.

Does the chinese "closed" his firmware like swallowbot or is it "open" for tweaks?

[trevmar]

Tommy, I don't know for sure that this is not the original v1.1.1 from Ninebot - except that it is contained in a read-protected CPU chip, using the same protection as Swallowbot uses. So I am pretty sure it has come through an anonymous third party, who is probably an insider (who else would have had access to v1.1.1?). Incidentally, although the revision info (above) says "Fix the problem that some vehicle may turn automatically at bumpy road," I was thrown by this nasty glitch on Monday and tore shoulder ligaments that will take a week or two to recover. But this was on one of my MiniPRO that has previously thrown me in the same way, so I need to ride the firmware more on one of the reliable MiniPRO I have (I got a good deal on several 'refurbs,' one of which threw me). Interesting that the firmware revision report says "some vehicle," implying hardware-dependency, as that lines up with the user experience reported in the "swerving to right" forum..I think the problem may be in the speed-sensing system used in the motors, all of which are hand-assembled.

Edited June 28, 2019 by trevmar