Speed Wobble Problem

[mrelwood]

Crouching usually starts a wobble by itself, but I think @LanghamP’s scenario can as well. However one rides, wobbles do start at some point. The key is to learn how to get them back in control.

My other foot is slightly crooked, so I never have a perfectly symmetrical balance for very long. Once I learned to kill the wobbles without tensing up my legs, the wobbles were no longer an issue.

Pushing the wheel with one leg only is an effective wobble killer. As is carving.

[V1k1ng8l00d]

Hello people, so I have a KS14M and just yesterday I was finally able to ride for about 50’ but everytime I start getting faster I chicken out, it feels pretty dangerous to be moving that fast while leaning forward 😳. Will this figure itself out as I get better and any idea how long I should expect ? I hate feeling like a pussy lol. I’m already thinking that I will want a big boy wheel as soon as I figure this 14M out but I picked it up new for $250! I would appreciate any thots and/or advice as to what I should be doing to better myself besides practice? Thanks a million ;) 

Sean 

[Rywokast]

14 minutes ago, V1k1ng8l00d said:

Hello people, so I have a KS14M and just yesterday I was finally able to ride for about 50’ but everytime I start getting faster I chicken out, it feels pretty dangerous to be moving that fast while leaning forward 😳. Will this figure itself out as I get better and any idea how long I should expect ? I hate feeling like a pussy lol. I’m already thinking that I will want a big boy wheel as soon as I figure this 14M out but I picked it up new for $250! I would appreciate any thots and/or advice as to what I should be doing to better myself besides practice? Thanks a million

Sean 

nice, haha well firstly you definitely shouldnt ever be leaning forwards on a KS14, unless your 4'2" and 60 lbs  on an euc that small you basically just need to think it and it will do it lol, in reality just push a tiny bit with your toes... not to scare you at all or anything because EUC's are generally extremely safe, but if you lean forwards on something that small its possible to cause the motor to cut out especially if youre >150 lbs.. dont rush it or worry about speeding up only focus on riding straight and staying on it first, then work on slow, wide turns slowly making them tighter and tighter until youre basically able to turn on the spot.. then you can work on smooth starts and stops as well as gracefully mounting and dismounting... only after you feel youve conquered all of the basics and are very confident that you wont fall/jump off should you ever take it up to speed, even if it is a measly 20 km/h dont ever think you cant get hurt at that speed, because most crashes are at slow speeds and you can crack your melon at any speed so dont rush yourself.. and besides practice, there is nothing you can do haha, having someone experienced teach you can be very valuable but if thats not a possibility then you have no other choice but to just do it and practice over and over and over until everything becomes innate, the time frame can vary vastly from person to person depending on many factors like age, athletic ability, natural balance, and experience.. some people get confident after an hour, some after a week but trust me you will know when it just clicks and suddenly you have no fear and it feels natural.. and then very soon after that you will be longing for something larger and faster and 40 km/h would feel too slow  one tip i can give that may or may not be obvious would be to practice on short grass.. that way your fear of falling is greatly lessened and you can break through the personal barrier much faster when you know falling wont hurt, honestly.. you need to fall a few times to get over it haha so it might as well be on grass

btw, where did you pick up the 14M for that price?? thats a steal

[.....]

1 hour ago, V1k1ng8l00d said:

Hello people, so I have a KS14M and just yesterday I was finally able to ride for about 50’ but everytime I start getting faster I chicken out, it feels pretty dangerous to be moving that fast while leaning forward 😳. Will this figure itself out as I get better and any idea how long I should expect ? I hate feeling like a pussy lol. I’m already thinking that I will want a big boy wheel as soon as I figure this 14M out but I picked it up new for $250! I would appreciate any thots and/or advice as to what I should be doing to better myself besides practice? Thanks a million

Sean 

Quit thinking, keep riding is all. Some days I wobble some days I dont. My 18 gets me to 30mph and rarely wobble, but sometimes it happens(uneven asphalt is a great learning tool!). My little 10" get me to near 20mph(seems slow), but it sometimes wobbles, sometimes not. Just the fact that I keep hitting speed limiters comfortably, illustrates that it just a matter of time over the wheels. When you start to doubt yourself, try to remember how baffling it was when you stepped on it the first time. Now look down and realize that it was once baffling to do what you arent even paying attention to already. DOnt think, just ride! Muscle training is happening tho you arent thinking of it. Luckily, once trained they will allow you to NOT think much at all and do what you thought was impossible. Fwiw,  big boy wheels are smoother to me. Coming from the 10" and hopping on my 18, i grin from ear to ear at how smoothly it goes a good speed. Once you get good on the little 14", you will fly on a larger wheel in a matter of minutes. DOnt feel too badly, I call myself out for being a little bitch all the time. Sometimes I am baffled at why I cant seem to control my wheel, when just yesterday it was fine...  (250miles newbie on my wheels, i assume 500mi is a good number for when I should be fairly comfy/stable. It will VARY greatly by person). I also spent my first 3 days on short grass.

Edited March 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[null]

It will pass once you get used to riding, it’s mainly linked to overcompensating from being tense IMO. At 7000km I get it a bit when tired or breaking hard.

[mrelwood]

 

6 hours ago, V1k1ng8l00d said:

everytime I start getting faster I chicken out, it feels pretty dangerous to be moving that fast while leaning forward 😳.

It should feel dangerous, since it is. That’s why we use protective gear. Over time the natural sense of self-preservation gets numb, but you shouldn’t rush it for multiple reasons. If you ride at an unfamiliar speed where you don’t feel safe, you being tense and unconcentrated will cause you to make bad decisions, and your reactions to sudden situations will blow over. The wheels behave a bit differently at fast speeds, and you learn it by letting yourself increase your speed in very small increments. This comes naturally, no need to push yourself out of the comfort zone.

I would re-check your foot position though. If you have to lean forward to keep a steady speed, you’re standing too far back. Try positioning the back of your shoe to the back of the pedals as a starting point.

6 hours ago, V1k1ng8l00d said:

I hate feeling like a pussy lol.

The issue is not the speed you ride at, but the fact that it makes you feel like that! Tell yourself that riding slow is a more advanced skill than riding fast. It’s actually even true!

[Rywokast]

5 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The issue is not the speed you ride at, but the fact that it makes you feel like that! Tell yourself that riding slow is a more advanced skill than riding fast. It’s actually even true!

great point.. the slower you go, the harder it is to balance so in fact the longer you take to get comfortable going at speed the better trained your sense of balance will be

[Blicky Te⚡️la]

I’m not sure if my wobbles are about speed.....

i don’t really wobble until i try to get in a more athletic position (knees bent) because  I’ve been told that is a more natural, safe riding position.

Problem is when I bend my knees that is when I get wobbly!

is it about foot placement? Degree/ Angle of the bend? 

[Rywokast]

1 minute ago, General Principle said:

I’m not sure if my wobbles are about speed.....

i don’t really wobble until i try to get in a more athletic position (knees bent) because  I’ve been told that is a more natural, safe riding position.

Problem is when I bend my knees that is when I get wobbly!

is it about foot placement? Degree/ Angle of the bend? 

when people say bend the knees it is literally like a 1 or 2 degree angle, just slightly so they are not locked.. i have a bad habit of usually keeping my knees locked because its more comfortable but if i get onto rougher terrain or an getting ready to go over a bump i will always bend them, with varying severity depending on the situation.. how much are you bending? it should only start to get wobbly when youre crouched right down if you havent practiced that.. what you may be doing subconsciously is when bending down, you are bending your legs outwards forming a shape like this \ / where you should be bending your legs and slightly twisting inwards.. it also depends on the euc, the smaller and the thinner the tire the more prone to wobbles, and the lower the contact with the shell is same deal.. the ideal euc for stability is something with a wider tire 2.5-3" and that has a tall shell anything thats down low or has a thin tire is going to take more practice

                                                                

[Blicky Te⚡️la]

2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

when people say bend the knees it is literally like a 1 or 2 degree angle, just slightly so they are not locked.. i have a bad habit of usually keeping my knees locked because its more comfortable but if i get onto rougher terrain or an getting ready to go over a bump i will always bend them, with varying severity depending on the situation.. how much are you bending? it should only start to get wobbly when youre crouched right down if you havent practiced that.. what you may be doing subconsciously is when bending down, you are bending your legs outwards forming a shape like this \ / where you should be bending your legs and slightly twisting inwards.. it also depends on the euc, the smaller and the thinner the tire the more prone to wobbles, and the lower the contact with the shell is same deal.. the ideal euc for stability is something with a wider tire 2.5-3" and that has a tall shell anything thats down low or has a thin tire is going to take more practice

                                                                

Interesting. I do indeed think I overbend. I ride a 18XL so it can’t be the wheel. It’s worth noting I’m a big guy 6’3” 320. Good advice on knee shape. I guess it’s less about foot placement than I thought. I just need to practice I suppose. 

[Rywokast]

3 minutes ago, General Principle said:

Interesting. I do indeed think I overbend. I ride a 18XL so it can’t be the wheel. It’s worth noting I’m a big guy 6’3” 320. Good advice on knee shape. I guess it’s less about foot placement than I thought. I just need to practice I suppose. 

oh the 18xl.. well, actually that is pretty much the easiest wheel that i have ever found to crouch or sit down on lol.. i havent tried an 18S or monster but my bet would be that those two are the only more comfortable ones (monster solely for its weight/tire size.. gotway shells are always sharp). ahh i see well thats probably part of it too then, seeing as i am 200 lbs less than you its similar to me on on a KS14D lol.. you have so much more influence over the wheel than me both with weight and height so thats a huge factor no doubt, its just going to take practice then

[Rywokast]

try just pinching the wheel a bit more between your legs.. like i said before its usually due to legs bowing outwards slightly and instead of controlling the wheel from the hips down you start controlling it with just your feet like you would on a much smaller wheel, and then unless youre on the most perfectly flat and smooth surface ever it will just start wobbling on its own and get worse and worse until you correct it.. i dont know about your riding stance or padding situation (i took mine off) but you could always add a bit more padding to where it has the least contact with your leg so it doesnt have the opportunity to even start wobbling.. practice ALWAYS helps more than anything though i could well be you just havent developed those particular muscles as well since youre not used to it

[Rywokast]

i hope marty doesnt mind me using his photo, but its something that ive noticed pronounced in his riding stance.. i know he often does trail riding so usually has a more defensive stance.. but youll notice how the legs come in somewhat, whereas the natural tendency may be for them to bow outwards.. though on another note bowing my legs outwards has become my natural stance when hitting a larger bump.. i will stand more on my toes and bow my legs outwards allowing the euc to jump in the air, rather than letting my knees absorb the shock

Edited April 8, 2020 by Rywokast

[.....]

I ride smoothly at 25+ mph with a fairly straight stance. I taught myself to ride that way and eventually the wobbles went away. The other day I decided to try and bend the knees a LOT and ride low. Well, 25mph wobbles and I couldnt get them to stop, until I stood back into my 'normal' posture. I KNOW people ride smoothly so low as even sitting on the wheel. My take on it all... your brain has to learn to handle the wheel, and it must do it much faster than you can realize to even think about it. I trained myself to ride smoothly at a minor knee bend. I havent trained myself to do it with a major knee bend. Basically, I think that its not a matter of a certain stance, its a matter of your brain learning how to cope with each stance.  Keep riding however you feel most comfortable. If you keep riding comfortably, youll keep ridiing and not get discouraged. Of course, i NOW see it as a personal challenge to ride at a near seated position. Over time by small bouts of practice, it will be wobble free also. Sadly, it was miles and not THOUGHTS that lessened my wobble from the start. I think the answer is.. keep riding, keep trying what you arent overly comfortable doing, and eventually youll realize you are doing things you couldnt before. Hell, rolling around on one wheel was once something you couldnt do AT ALL!  fwiw, i typically keep my legs lightly touching the top of my wheel. it bounces a little between them, but i do like the assurance of where it is EXACTLY on my legs. I twist and carve a tiny bit if wobbles start. IN 25mph turns, I use my outer leg to lock in and keep that turn more stable. A little wobble between the legs is a good thing, but allowing it to freely lean with only my feet to help (at higher speeds), is pretty tough. Keeping those legs closer, also makes it easier to grab with them for some extra acceleration or decelleration.

Edited April 8, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Rywokast]

9 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I ride smoothly at 25+ mph with a fairly straight stance. I taught myself to ride that way and eventually the wobbles went away. The other day I decided to try and bend the knees a LOT and ride low. Well, 25mph wobbles and I couldnt get them to stop, until I stood back into my 'normal' posture. I KNOW people ride smoothly so low as even sitting on the wheel. My take on it all... your brain has to learn to handle the wheel, and it must do it much faster than you can realize to even think about it. I trained myself to ride smoothly at a minor knee bend. I havent trained myself to do it with a major knee bend. Basically, I think that its not a matter of a certain stance, its a matter of your brain learning how to cope with each stance.  Keep riding however you feel most comfortable. If you keep riding comfortably, youll keep ridiing and not get discouraged. Of course, i NOW see it as a personal challenge to ride at a near seated position. Over time by small bouts of practice, it will be wobble free also. Sadly, it was miles and not THOUGHTS that lessened my wobble from the start. I think the answer is.. keep riding, keep trying what you arent overly comfortable doing, and eventually youll realize you are doing things you couldnt before. Hell, rolling around on one wheel was once something you couldnt do AT ALL!  fwiw, i typically keep my legs lightly touching the top of my wheel. it bounces a little between them, but i do like the assurance of where it is EXACTLY on my legs. I twist and carve a tiny bit if wobbles start. IN 25mph turns, I use my outer leg to lock in and keep that turn more stable. A little wobble between the legs is a good thing, but allowing it to freely lean with only my feet to help (at higher speeds), is pretty tough. Keeping those legs closer, also makes it easier to grab with them for some extra acceleration or decelleration.

you should try training for seated riding (even if you dont have a seat) it is so much fun.. you feel like youre going twice as fast lol, plus its a good challenge and strengthens your legs and core muscles more than standing

[.....]

1 minute ago, Rywokast said:

you should try training for seated riding (even if you dont have a seat) it is so much fun.. you feel like youre going twice as fast lol, plus its a good challenge and strengthens your legs and core muscles more than standing

working on it! Trying to sit at 25mph for the fist time, definitely told me that theres a lot more to it than you would expect. I mean hell, why would it be so much harder? I also noted it takes a little practice to ride straight, with a long selfie stick and camera held WAY out to the side. It took me a few moments of wondering, to realize why i was having to lean funny to go straight... camera weight... durr. It really is quite amazing how precise we teach ourselves to be, in order to ride these how we do.

[Rywokast]

1 minute ago, ShanesPlanet said:

working on it! Trying to sit at 25mph for the fist time, definitely told me that theres a lot more to it than you would expect. I mean hell, why would it be so much harder? I also noted it takes a little practice to ride straight, with a long selfie stick and camera held WAY out to the side. It took me a few moments of wondering, to realize why i was having to lean funny to go straight... camera weight... durr. It really is quite amazing how precise we teach ourselves to be, in order to ride these how we do.

idk haha i didnt think so at first either, but once you can finally sit on your wheel, like get as low as possible its addicting.. not too sure, something to do with your centre of gravity in relation to the wheel and also just the fact that humans arent meant to be squatting for a long time lol.. like if someone is squatting down you can push them over like nothing its very hard to maintain balance, but standing tall, legs apart.. its extremely difficult to push someone over (if theyre expecting it). hahaha, yes its funny how much of an effect something so small can have.. like i have to compensate when im just carrying something small in one hand on a windy day, the weight is negligible its just the difference in symmetry that affects our harmonious balance... you have to be cautious when getting down though especially at first.. the smallest actions are magnified, a tiny bump feels like hitting a speed bump, and the control of the euc is greatly amplified

[Planemo]

4 hours ago, Rywokast said:

i hope marty doesnt mind me using his photo, but its something that ive noticed pronounced in his riding stance..

I noticed he has quite a pronounced 'knees in' stance as well. It's something I have worked very hard to get rid of though for the following:

1. For most people it doesn't do your knees much good. When doing squats for example, your toes are usually pointing slightly outwards to keep your legs in line on the way down.

2. I prefer to ride with the wheel 'loose' between my legs. The only time the wheel touches my inner calves is very low speed turns (when tilting the wheel) or very high speed turns when I am helping to push the wheel over with the outer calf. If I ride with my toes straight forward, the more knee bend I use, the closer my knees come to touching each other (and the wheel).

3. Most of my advanced learning was done on a Z10. Using a 'knees in' stance whilst fast cornering a Z leads to some very odd positioning. Namely, a kinda 'inside knee points into the wheel' AKA Anthony Edwards style. Whilst the Z can indeed be ridden this way, I much preferred the approach that riders like RoberAce use which is totally the opposite - get the inside knee well away from the wheel, along with most of your upper body hanging off.

So, I have learnt to ride with my toes pointing out by a few degrees. It means that the gap between my knees remains constant whatever the level of knee bend.

This is only MY method of course. Marty, like many others, have many miles under their belts and their stances clearly work for them. We are all a bit different when it comes to EUC riding dynamics

 

[Rywokast]

10 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I noticed he has quite a pronounced 'knees in' stance as well. It's something I have worked very hard to get rid of though for the following:

1. For most people it doesn't do your knees much good. When doing squats for example, your toes are usually pointing slightly outwards to keep your legs in line on the way down.

2. I prefer to ride with the wheel 'loose' between my legs. The only time the wheel touches my inner calves is very low speed turns (when tilting the wheel) or very high speed turns when I am helping to push the wheel over with the outer calf. If I ride with my toes straight forward, the more knee bend I use, the closer my knees come to touching each other (and the wheel).

3. Most of my advanced learning was done on a Z10. Using a 'knees in' stance whilst fast cornering a Z leads to some very odd positioning. Namely, a kinda 'inside knee points into the wheel' AKA Anthony Edwards style. Whilst the Z can indeed be ridden this way, I much preferred the approach that riders like RoberAce use which is totally the opposite - get the inside knee well away from the wheel, along with most of your upper body hanging off.

So, I have learnt to ride with my toes pointing out by a few degrees. It means that the gap between my knees remains constant whatever the level of knee bend.

This is only MY method of course. Marty, like many others, have many miles under their belts and their stances clearly work for them. We are all a bit different when it comes to EUC riding dynamics

 

oh yea for sure, i actually prefer myself to have my toes pointing outwards a bit and im not usually touching the body.. usually remove all pads for this reason.. its just a suggestion to see if it could alleviate some wobbles because i do believe having the wheel loose between your legs can contribute to this especially if you dont have a lot of experience or your legs are fatigued, i always put some kind of padding on when im training someone, but yea everybody has to find their own stance and will naturally

Edited April 8, 2020 by Rywokast

[Blicky Te⚡️la]

5 hours ago, Planemo said:2. I prefer to ride with the wheel 'loose' between my legs. The only time the wheel touches my inner calves is very low speed turns (when tilting the wheel) or very high speed turns when I am helping to push the wheel over with the outer calf. If I ride with my toes straight forward, the more knee bend I use, the closer my knees come to touching each other (and the wheel).

 

Yeah the whole “wheel loose between legs” thing confuses me a bit too. I watch Tishawn videos and others and the wheel is sooofar from their inner legs that it baffles me.

[orbajosbrother]

2 hours ago, General Principle said:

Yeah the whole “wheel loose between legs” thing confuses me a bit too. I watch Tishawn videos and others and the wheel is sooofar from their inner legs that it baffles me.

I'm a noob, but since graduating from a KS14D to an (84v) MSX I feel like having my knees bent outward, and feet as far on the outside of the pedals as I can get increases my stability. I do not ride flat-footed like I did on my 14D. I place my feet pretty far back on the pedals, with my toe just barely overhanging the front. To accelerate I put more weight on the front of the pedal but stay mostly upright. I'm mostly on my toes the whole time I'm riding. This stance pretty much makes me bend my knees so absorbing bumps is pretty easy. Braking is easier for me like this since I have so much leverage on the back of the pedal since most of my foot is behind it. I still slow down for big bumps. By the way, I'm 6'0 tall and weight 180ish lbs with gear on.

When I have my feet touching the shell I cannot exceed 20mph confidently. The lower I can get my body (and the more inward force I can exert on the pedals from the outside - that's how it feels to me anyway), the more stable I become. Carving like this is a lot of fun too, I feel like a superbike rider must feel hanging my body off each side in turns. It just seems that everyone is different and it takes experimentation and practice to find what works for oneself. I'm sure in time I'll be able to ride faster with my feet touching the shell and be stable. Each day I feel better and better on the wheel. Though yesterday was my last ride till this covid thing settles down so my progress is temporarily halted :-/

Edited April 8, 2020 by raidzero
typo handing to hanging

[Rywokast]

6 hours ago, raidzero said:

I'm a noob, but since graduating from a KS14D to an (84v) MSX I feel like having my knees bent outward, and feet as far on the outside of the pedals as I can get increases my stability. I do not ride flat-footed like I did on my 14D. I place my feet pretty far back on the pedals, with my toe just barely overhanging the front. To accelerate I put more weight on the front of the pedal but stay mostly upright. I'm mostly on my toes the whole time I'm riding. This stance pretty much makes me bend my knees so absorbing bumps is pretty easy. Braking is easier for me like this since I have so much leverage on the back of the pedal since most of my foot is behind it. I still slow down for big bumps. By the way, I'm 6'0 tall and weight 180ish lbs with gear on.

When I have my feet touching the shell I cannot exceed 20mph confidently. The lower I can get my body (and the more inward force I can exert on the pedals from the outside - that's how it feels to me anyway), the more stable I become. Carving like this is a lot of fun too, I feel like a superbike rider must feel hanging my body off each side in turns. It just seems that everyone is different and it takes experimentation and practice to find what works for oneself. I'm sure in time I'll be able to ride faster with my feet touching the shell and be stable. Each day I feel better and better on the wheel. Though yesterday was my last ride till this covid thing settles down so my progress is temporarily halted :-/

you have to remember too different euc's ride differently... the MSX is nowhere near as nimble as the 18L, not only does it have a much bigger tire, but its also more squat and so all of its weight is in a smaller box shaped package lower down.. 18L has a tall slender body with the weight higher up and quite a thin tire so the dynamic closely resembles a 16" wheel in my opinion whereas the nikola for example feels much closer to the MSX than the 18L does.. on the nikola i felt the same way, feet spread apart knees out and leaning like crazy in fast turns

[Rywokast]

6 hours ago, General Principle said:

Yeah the whole “wheel loose between legs” thing confuses me a bit too. I watch Tishawn videos and others and the wheel is sooofar from their inner legs that it baffles me.

isnt he the guy whos used to riding the monster around NYC though? that thing is a tank you cant compare it to anything else.. but as far as people having their legs far out i bet its only on 3" tires where the gyroscopic effect is literally fighting to keep the wheel upright lol, you can put your feet wherever the hell you want it doesnt care.. i seriously doubt they would be riding a tesla, v8, or 16s that way xD

[M640x]

I had wobbles when going faster than 20 mph on my Z10 until I hit 300 miles on it.  My guess is that I built up the muscle and technique from having enough miles in because I didn't change the way I was riding.

[El Tarro]

I've been riding for a while - over 1000Km - and never had bad wobble problems, but yesterday I got a massive wobble and got spat off in style - luckily just bruised knees to show for it. I had a backpack on and a bag in one hand (with a toaster in it!), so my balance was affected for sure, but I reckon it was also caused by strong acceleration. Years ago I had a sports motorbike and remember that speed wobble was typical when accelerating hard. I just mention it because I haven't seen acceleration mentioned as a cause. In my case it was so quick and violent that there was no chance to take corrective action.