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Jim Martin

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32 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'd love to see a video of this. For some reason I still can't get my head around pedal pumping :confused1:

I didn’t understand what @houseofjob was talking about either when he coined “pedal pumping”. It feels like I’m dsncing when i do it, as I’m swaying side to side and body always moving on the wheel. 

I use the technique all the time on the Z10 because of how sluggish it is to accelerate and decelerate (compared to my Msx And Ks18s which I use it sparingly because they accel/decelerate just fine)

To decelerate via pedal pumping, instead of leaning straight back and sustaining that posture till you get the desired braking, pedal pumping would be like putting all the pressure on your heel and back of one pedal and swaying to that side and then alternating to put all the pressure on your other heel and the rear of the other pedal and swaying to that side and repeating the process to brake. You are doing this rapidly, you aren’t putting force on one pedal for very long otherwise you’ll sway too far to the side and fall, as the majority of your weight is on one side. You must “cycle” or alternate the pumps.

Hopefully that makes sense and is in line with how @houseofjob does it

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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@Darrell Wesh @Marty Backe

Ah, I see now how "pumping" might get mis-translated. Perhaps "pedaling" alone will explain it, because it really feels like you're kind of pedaling a bicycle, left-right-left-right.

And yeah, the Z10, in both acceleration and braking, is great for this (applicable to all EUC really, especially with good soft modes) because of the wideness that allows deeper left-rights.

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4 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

@Darrell Wesh @Marty Backe

Ah, I see now how "pumping" might get mis-translated. Perhaps "pedaling" alone will explain it, because it really feels like you're kind of pedaling a bicycle, left-right-left-right.

And yeah, the Z10, in both acceleration and braking, is great for this (applicable to all EUC really, especially with good soft modes) because of the wideness that allows deeper left-rights.

Pedaling a bicycle up a hill and having to stand up to get deeper left-rights and swaying to that side to really force the pedals down. That’s how it feels to me. 

Edited by Darrell Wesh

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38 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Ah, I see now how "pumping" might get mis-translated. Perhaps "pedaling" alone will explain it, because it really feels like you're kind of pedaling a bicycle, left-right-left-right.

Although English is not my native language (as you can see :rolleyes:) and I didn't learn it at school, I didn't misunderstand. I understood it exactly as @Darrell Wesh explained. 

36 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Pedaling a bicycle up a hill and having to stand up to get deeper left-rights and swaying to that side to really force the pedals down. That’s how it feels to me. 

Interesting technique, and I will definitely try it.

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

I'd love to see a video of this. For some reason I still can't get my head around pedal pumping :confused1:

Try fast carving while braking.

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39 minutes ago, Dancer said:

Try fast carving while braking.

If I need to brake in an emergency, I don't think I'll be able to start carving :huh:

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2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

@Darrell Wesh @Marty Backe

Ah, I see now how "pumping" might get mis-translated. Perhaps "pedaling" alone will explain it, because it really feels like you're kind of pedaling a bicycle, left-right-left-right.

@houseofjob, I guess you still haven’t made a video on this? I haven’t understood how fast the weight shifting is. Like a single-speed road racer just starting, Road Runner starting to run away from Wile E Coyote, or somewhere in between?

I also can’t wrap my head around on any technical or physical explanation on why it would work. I haven’t gotten it to work myself, probably due to misunderstanding or lack of technique.

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16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

@houseofjob, I guess you still haven’t made a video on this? I haven’t understood how fast the weight shifting is. Like a single-speed road racer just starting, Road Runner starting to run away from Wile E Coyote, or somewhere in between?

I also can’t wrap my head around on any technical or physical explanation on why it would work. I haven’t gotten it to work myself, probably due to misunderstanding or lack of technique.

i dont understand it either, and really would only give it any real merit with side by side video evidence that could be seen in something like kujis 18l vs msx videos.. i mean the magnets are only physically able to speed up or slow down the motor so fast, no amount of fancy maneuvering or anything like that as far as i can imagine would magically make it be able to stop or go faster.. perhaps in the case being able to stop faster *without* flying backwards and landing on your ass due to overlean i could see haha, but again i would love to see a side by side comparison. and also faster breaking comes mostly down to reactionary time, this technique imo would only be effective for a planned stop, if a deer jumps out in front of me in not gonna shimmy my weight back and forth from foot to foot im going to instinctively lean straight tf back with all of my weight.. maybe thats just me idk

Edited by Rywokast
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The so called pedal pumping is what i do when i accelerate fast and not over lean to much

I always have my euc on soft mode so when i lean and it starts to accelerate i don't want to lean anymore due to cog so i quick and instantly let of the power on one leg while instantly putting power to the other leg not only does this keep you accelerating but also keeps me upright and not leaning to far of the cog ,its sort of like the pumping feeling to apply one pedal and power on then the other foot and power on instantly its like asking for more voltage please ,i do it for stability and to keep acceleration up at the same time , it's not a big action 

Edited by stephen
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2 hours ago, Dancer said:

Try fast carving while braking

I love braking while carving. I brake just before I'm ready to carve around a corner then put on the power😊

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2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

i dont understand it either, and really would only give it any real merit with side by side video evidence that could be seen in something like kujis 18l vs msx videos.. i mean the magnets are only physically able to speed up or slow down the motor so fast, no amount of fancy maneuvering or anything like that as far as i can imagine would magically make it be able to stop or go faster.. perhaps in the case being able to stop faster *without* flying backwards and landing on your ass due to overlean i could see haha, but again i would love to see a side by side comparison. and also faster breaking comes mostly down to reactionary time, this technique imo would only be effective for a planned stop, if a deer jumps out in front of me in not gonna shimmy my weight back and forth from foot to foot im going to instinctively lean straight tf back with all of my weight.. maybe thats just me idk

i think the ice skating principle applys here

Edited by Dancer

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23 minutes ago, Dancer said:

i think the ice skating principle applys here

makes sense, if it had pedals lol.. i just dont see how it would be effective for something with an electric motor, unless like i said.. to prevent over leaning, then it makes sense

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1 hour ago, stephen said:

quick and instantly let of the power on one leg while instantly putting power to the other leg not only does this keep you accelerating but also keeps me upright and not leaning to far of the cog ,

The EUC can only receive one input that makes it accelerate: The angular force that is applied to the pedals. The amount of force is a combination of distance from the axle, and the amount of weight placed on that point on the pedal. Weight distribution between the left and right pedal makes no difference, as they are physically the same solid unit.

In order for this pedaling to have any effect, either the summed left and right weight varies, or the pressure point center distance from the axle varies. It sounds to me that it’s about the latter.

To exert the same force over time, a varying pressure point must deviate both behind and in front the pressure point of a comparable steady lean. So you would be actually leaning more with this pedalling technique just for the same total force.

As houseofjob mentioned that this works best on the GW soft mode, so one  possible explanation that comes to mind is the Gotway soft mode itself: It is slow. As the rider starts to lean, the pedals are kept flat and rock hard, and only if the lean is kept, the pedals slowly tilt forward. If the wheel resets the acceleration curve every time the pedal force is decreased, it would then keep the pedals more upright during a longer acceleration.

If that is the case, it would mean that the method is just a workaround for the less than optimal firmware behaviour, and that it would be more efficiently overcome by using a harder pedal mode, or a wheel from any other manufacturer.

Question is, does anyone use this method succesfully on any other than the GW soft mode?

1 hour ago, stephen said:

its sort of like the pumping feeling to apply one pedal and power on then the other foot and power on instantly its like asking for more voltage please

For the mechanism to make sense (or to be proven) I think we should keep away from metaphoras further on. After all, we have read a few times now what’s it ”like”. But it doesn’t answer the question ”why does or doesn’t it work”.

 

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4 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

The EUC can only receive one input that makes it accelerate: The angular force that is applied to the pedals. The amount of force is a combination of distance from the axle, and the amount of weight placed on that point on the pedal. Weight distribution between the left and right pedal makes no difference, as they are physically the same solid unit.

In order for this pedaling to have any effect, either the summed left and right weight varies, or the pressure point center distance from the axle varies. It sounds to me that it’s about the latter.

To exert the same force over time, a varying pressure point must deviate both behind and in front the pressure point of a comparable steady lean. So you would be actually leaning more with this pedalling technique just for the same total force.

As houseofjob mentioned that this works best on the GW soft mode, so one  possible explanation that comes to mind is the Gotway soft mode itself: It is slow. As the rider starts to lean, the pedals are kept flat and rock hard, and only if the lean is kept, the pedals slowly tilt forward. If the wheel resets the acceleration curve every time the pedal force is decreased, it would then keep the pedals more upright during a longer acceleration.

If that is the case, it would mean that the method is just a workaround for the less than optimal firmware behaviour, and that it would be more efficiently overcome by using a harder pedal mode, or a wheel from any other manufacturer.

Question is, does anyone use this method succesfully on any other than the GW soft mode?

For the mechanism to make sense (or to be proven) I think we should keep away from metaphoras further on. After all, we have read a few times now what’s it ”like”. But it doesn’t answer the question ”why does or doesn’t it work”.

 

I'm not saying it goes faster I'm just saying it keeps me more stable than leaning to far forward in soft mode and the pedals seem to stabilise when doing this action and keeps the acceleration just as much as a total lean,  this is what i interprete houseofjob might be a different view  

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3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

The EUC can only receive one input that makes it accelerate: The angular force that is applied to the pedals. The amount of force is a combination of distance from the axle, and the amount of weight placed on that point on the pedal. Weight distribution between the left and right pedal makes no difference, as they are physically the same solid unit.

In order for this pedaling to have any effect, either the summed left and right weight varies, or the pressure point center distance from the axle varies. It sounds to me that it’s about the latter.

To exert the same force over time, a varying pressure point must deviate both behind and in front the pressure point of a comparable steady lean. So you would be actually leaning more with this pedalling technique just for the same total force.

As houseofjob mentioned that this works best on the GW soft mode, so one  possible explanation that comes to mind is the Gotway soft mode itself: It is slow. As the rider starts to lean, the pedals are kept flat and rock hard, and only if the lean is kept, the pedals slowly tilt forward. If the wheel resets the acceleration curve every time the pedal force is decreased, it would then keep the pedals more upright during a longer acceleration.

If that is the case, it would mean that the method is just a workaround for the less than optimal firmware behaviour, and that it would be more efficiently overcome by using a harder pedal mode, or a wheel from any other manufacturer.

Question is, does anyone use this method succesfully on any other than the GW soft mode?

For the mechanism to make sense (or to be proven) I think we should keep away from metaphoras further on. After all, we have read a few times now what’s it ”like”. But it doesn’t answer the question ”why does or doesn’t it work”.

 

I use it almost exclusively on the Z10 as I find it prevents me from overleaning on that wheel as the Z is so sluggish to react you can easily lose your balance and fall off forwards or backwards on it trying to accelerate or decelerate. 

I haven’t compared acceleration times but for braking it makes a dramatic difference. On the Z, the feeling is that I’m trying to crank the wheel to the left or right side to slow it down but before it turns I shift my weight to the other side and repeat the process. 

Ive done it sometimes on the MSX hard mode but that wheel just can stop adequately with just cranking it straight back. 

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2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

if a deer jumps out in front of me in not gonna shimmy my weight back and forth from foot to foot im going to instinctively lean straight tf back with all of my weight.. maybe thats just me idk

Please don’t do this. You’re not a car with ABS and disc brakes. You’d either overlean backwards or sail right into the deer. Use the maneuverability of the EUC to avoid it, and remember you’re only as wide as a human being and not a full car.

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2 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I use it almost exclusively on the Z10 as I find it prevents me from overleaning on that wheel as the Z is so sluggish to react you can easily lose your balance and fall off forwards or backwards on it trying to accelerate or decelerate.

Ok. Why is it easier for you to keep your balance during ”pedaling” than during a straight lean?

2 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I haven’t compared acceleration times but for braking it makes a dramatic difference. On the Z, the feeling is that I’m trying to crank the wheel to the left or right side to slow it down but before it turns I shift my weight to the other side and repeat the process.

Ok. Why does it make a difference?

 

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2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

makes sense, if it had pedals lol.. i just dont see how it would be effective for something with an electric motor, unless like i said.. to prevent over leaning, then it makes sense

You steer the wheel to go from right to left while pushing to the right with your right leg, then you steer from left to right and push to the left with your left leg. You do this while leaning back. The pushing of the legs gives extra braking power on top of the motor braking power.

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36 minutes ago, Dancer said:

The pushing of the legs gives extra braking power on top of the motor braking power.

That can’t be correct. The motor is the only part in the equation that can apply enough friction to notably slow you down. It does this only with the electric braking power that is applied to the motor.

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5 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

That can’t be correct. The motor is the only part in the equation that can apply enough friction to notably slow you down. It does this only with the electric braking power that is applied to the motor.

I'm guessing the improvement comes from adding more breaking surface area (left and right) to x distance? 

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All this tilting, leaning and pumping. :efee612b4b:

How did you guys ride in the beginning? Always falling to the side, always correcting. "Twisting and carving".
How did you learn to ride backwards? Same way. Constantly correcting lateral balance and twisting. The twisting eventually turned to carving. The carving turned into a "straight" line.

What is more stable? Riding in a straight line or riding with a lean to one side? Does a slight lean minimise oscillations/wobble?

How would you move the wheel forward if the motor only balanced you but at the same time did not accelerate in response to forward lean nor counter you. Just free roll forward and backwards on a magically self balancing wheel. Would you swing your body back and forth? Would you lean forwards diagonally to the left and then center yourself and then repeat the lean on the right side? Would arms be involved? Would all the movement counter itself because of the opposite movements involved and we are just standing on a wheel flailing?

What if there was a pedal mode that yielded when you put weight on it and then reset itself after yielding? Could this repetitive pressing and yielding and resetting behaviour be used somehow?

These are the questions I ask myself before going to bed. I have much to try.

In my mind it's like the clip below though... physics be damned.

 

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3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That can’t be correct. The motor is the only part in the equation that can apply enough friction to notably slow you down. It does this only with the electric braking power that is applied to the motor.

Ice skates have no motor, still you can brake that way.

Edited by Dancer
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3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Ok. Why is it easier for you to keep your balance during ”pedaling” than during a straight lean?

Ok. Why does it make a difference?

 

Simple. You’re just shearing off speed by doing mini slaloms pumping the pedals. Pumping or alternating them quickly is why I say “mini” slaloms. You are no longer rolling in a straight line with this technique which decreases stopping distance. 

As for accelerating, I haven’t quite figured out if I accelerate faster with it as if my above explanation is true then that would mean accelerating would be slower (also due to the fact that you’re going side to side instead of in a straight line which is faster by a physics standpoint) 

The ironic thing is that this talk of accelerating is like track and field. Guys from football are notorious for going forward/accelerating by pushing sideways to go forward, as it takes longer for the human stride to fall in front of the center of mass then out to the side. So you have short strides with very quick foot turnover with guys arms and torsos going side to side and alot of wasted energy. The technical guys are the ones driving straight forward with arms going straight forward and back, with longer, inevitably slower strides but save energy as they’re taking less steps by covering more ground per step.

Of course this energy saving doesn’t matter much on an EUC as it does for a human sprinter. 

What I do know is true is that for braking it’s a no brainer that it decelerates you faster. As for accelerating it seems to give the illusion of being faster as you’re working to accelerate instead of maintaining a static forward lean. 

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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3 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

The ironic thing is that this talk of accelerating is like track and field. Guys from football are notorious for going forward/accelerating by pushing sideways to go forward, as it takes longer for the human stride to fall in front of the center of mass then out to the side. So you have short strides but very quick foot turnover with guys arms and torsos going side to side and alot of wasted energy. The technical guys are the ones driving straight forward with arms going straight forward and back, with longer, inevitably slower strides but save energy as they’re taking less steps by covering more ground per step.

Yes! this!

On acceleration on EUC via pedaling (whatever you wanna call), it does feel very side-to-side, but not full slalom side-to-side, when you're really trying to drive forward. Very interesting to hear this football vs runner rationale.

 

@mrelwood sorry, I've been a bit busy caught up with work and lazy getting the video out, but after this 16X demo cycle, I want to get on it; also, I'm still trying to logically explain things I do with my subconscious skier training on EUC that intuitively do, but do not complete explanations for, as with all things athletic in this life.

Part of what I've been rationalizing in my head has been a.) the human body is not the most efficient at transmitting force to the front of the pedals when our whole body weight sits directly over our heel on the back of the pedals, so driving in a body-turning, wheel-twisting manner, each hip directly over the front pedal seems to be the most efficient, b.) driving the force down with the wheel flopping diagonally over left-and-right seems to maximize force of this re-positioned body weight, combined with natural gravity.

The most indicator of the fact that we standing on an EUC is super inefficient to transmit force, is how on the supposedly "low torque" Gotway Monster, sitting on the nose, along with pulling your body into the nose with feet on the front pedal edges, will disprove these low torque claims tenfold. Anyone who is adept at seated Monster riding will attest to this.

 

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The limiting factor in (high end)EUC acceleration isn’t from the EUC, it’s from our ability to stay on the wheel without losing our own balance falling forward off of it.

The more you lean forward the more you pushback on the heels to counteract that lean so you’re really also applying the brakes in a way. If you leaned while standing on your toes you’d lose your balance and fall off very quickly on these high end larger wheels. 

Which is why seated riding like @houseofjob mentions is superior for acceleration. Your center of gravity is much lower and thus more stable as well as seated, so you can lean with reckless abandon and stay on without losing balance. With your feet on the front pedal edges you don’t get any counter productive braking action either. 

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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