KS-14S won't power up after leaving charger connected

[cgi]

Hi all,

So, I've had a KS-14S for around a year now and ridden around 1300km so far, and lurking on these forums for longer than that, but never have anything constructive to post so have never signed up until now.

As will come no surprise, I'm posting because my wheel is buggered up. Last night, I thought I would be "clever" and attach the charger to the wheel, and then to a timer power socket, to give the wheel a boost for a couple of hours in the night (I didn't want to leave it charging to max ). But, it seems that having the charger connected to the wheel for some hours but with no power going through it has caused something to fail. The wheel will not power up fully. So long as I keep the power button held, the RGB LEDs light up and the BT module and speaker amplifier activates but that's it. If I keep it held long enough I get "Bluh-tooth is off" voice.

I have since left it charging until the charger LED turned green, and I have also removed the fuse for a while, but still the same problem. I'm measuring the correct voltage on the charger output.

Now it seems quite clear that something on the control board has failed, and I'm quite sure that replacing it altogether will resolve the issue, but the main purpose of my post is to reach out to see if anyone has experienced these same symptoms and might be able to give some pointers as to what may have failed on the board. I'm anyway going to pull the wheel apart and try to probe around a bit and also measure the battery pack voltage to be sure. If I can replace a blown diode or something else that may have failed I'd rather do that than wait for a new board to arrive.

I surely picked the best time to fsck it up, when the hot summer days are starting and I use the wheel every day!

Cheers!

[cgi]

Update: Pulled the wheel apart. Nothing has visually gone bang on the board, need to start measuring. Measured the individual battery packs, both show as fully charged. Notified my reseller who's contacting KingSong but I want the wheel back rolling ASAP

 

...D

 

Damn this input field sucks, it's too easy to tab to the submit button by accident. I was trying to say, I want it back rolling ASAP so if that means paying 179 euros from KingSong Europe site, so be it! (Mod: you may want to remove the previous post and merge this into the other one. I don't have permissions to edit yet.)

[mrelwood]

To get it out of the way, KingSong wheels won’t power up the motor if the charger is connected. But I’m pretty sure you knew that already.

As a first step I would measure that the fuse resistance is zero.

Second, since there is still some kind of activity present, disconnecting the mainboard battery connector for a minute or so just might reboot the system properly.

Perhaps even press the powerbutton during that time to empty the mainboard capacitors. This will cause the battery connector to spark when reconnected, so best to reconnect fast and determinately.

If that doesn’t help, visual scanning of the mainboard may indeed be in place. Burn marks, bulged capacitors, darkened areas or components, etc.

I hope you get your baby running again!

[cgi]

Yeah, let's see! This is how it behaves (attached video). Actually, can someone else with a 14D/S see how it behaves if you try to power it on with the charger connected? Is it like this? If so then that would suggest that it's stuck in that state somehow, as a result of damage from either leaving the charger connected (but with no AC mains in) or transients/spikes when the power was first applied and when it was cut.

* Fuse is fine (it's getting power)
* Batteries have been disconnected and the mainboard discharged via power button and shorting out the caps for at least an hour with no effect.
* Nothing looks bad
* Nothing smells particularly bad

I would guess it's something related to the circuitry that determines whether the charger is connected and prevents power on. I don't know how the startup sequence works on the KingSongs, whether there's some aux microcontroller dealing with the power on routine or if it's the main microcontroller. Either way, if I knew what pin on what chip was meant to be high or low to signal that the charger is connected then that would be a very good place to start in my opinion.

I suppose I should do something I've been meaning to anyway - remove the motor and clean out all the crap that's accumulated  inside the wheel housing. And when putting it back together, I should put grease on all the screws because two screws under the LED strips had got stuck fast in due to rust. I had to use a soldering iron and melt the plastic away around it. I'll fill the holes with some sort of shmoo later.

[cgi]

Update: Tried to see if I could get a board from 1RadWerkstatt but they were totally unresponsive. In the end after a lot of back and forth, the local seller arranged a board replacement from KingSong. It's supposed to be 5 day express shipping but we'll see... I'm also wondering how much hassle customs will cause me.

Meanwhile I've been discharging the batteries a little using a 230v halogen lamp as they were at 100% and I really didn't want to leave it like that any longer. The lamp lights dimly and provides a gentle discharge.

[Unventor]

First off I can be wrong on this. I don’t have your model but a KS18L (early batch). 

I recall that powering wheel up on its side do not grant a full power up but turns on light and BT comm and mucic (BT or USB). 

As stated earlier by someone else I can't turn on wheel with charger plugged into wheel. 

Since you have checked fuse, might be worth to check PSU connection in wheel. So it doesn't think it is still connected. 

Sorry my troubleshooting skills for EUCs is still rather limited as I have had only few (rework) issues. Like Lamp and stem exchange. A puncture... Calibration. 

I have yet to experience any major issues, which I hope I might never get. 

[cgi]

Thanks for the reply, Unventor.

However I can safely say I've exhausted all reasonable troubleshooting options. The main board is getting power,  it will behave as the video regardless of whether the charger is plugged in or not. The main processor gets warm to the touch so it's definitely working in some fashion, it's just not booting. I have done some tracing of voltages across the board with a meter but without a schematic to work with it's not too easy to really see what's going on. I could definitely do more troubleshooting but ultimately the board shouldn't have failed so readily like that and a replacement is on its way. My goal is to get the wheel running again ASAP. Summer is very short here in Finland, need to make the most of it! Once the wheel is running again I can at my leisure do some further probing on the old board and see if I can get it working again. Then I have a spare!

[cgi]

So, an update.

I contacted the local online seller that I originally bought the wheel from (e1on.com, thanks Paul) and he arranged a warranty replacement board.

Today I set about fitting that as well as pulling the wheel apart as far as taking the wheel out in order to clean out all the crud that had accumulated over the last year. The mission was a success and the wheel is now working, with the exception of the bluetooth audio, which I'll talk more about further down.

First the new board. It's a different version to the old one, and quite significant changes appear to have happened. Old was 1.2, new is 1.4. One of the most notable is that the external fuse is no longer connected and instead two on-board fuses are used. I personally think that sucks but they may have had good reason to do that. There are a number of other layout changes and also the bluetooth audio is now on a raised board.

Here's a high res photo showing both boards (https://i.imgur.com/LlNMIJ5.jpg):




The firmware on the new board is of course the latest 1.09. This also sucks because I can't set speed via 3rd party apps. I had to dick about in the KingSong app to unlock it. One thing I notice upon starting the wheel is that the fan is tested. This didn't happen with the old board.

I had an issue with the coil antenna placement on the new board - it was fouling the top case, so I had to move it.



There was a lot of dirt in the wheel housing:



And on the back of the old board:




So back to the bluetooth audio. There is audio, it can speak, however, the audio amp seems to be overloading. It'll either go "Bluetooth is con <BANG>" and disconnect, or it will connect but after 1-2 seconds of playing music, it will go BANG and disconnect. I cannot be bothered taking out all the screws again to see what's going on. Not at least for a while. The wheel otherwise seems to run well. If anyone has come across this I'd be interested to hear about it though.

I did have an issue upon dismantling where a couple of the screws under the RGB LEDs had rusted. I had to melt the casing out around them with a soldering iron to get it open. This is because they screw into posts that go all the way through to the wheel housing, allowing water and dirt to start eating the screw from the bottom. Filling the rear of those pots with silicone goop is a good idea. I also applied copper grease to the threads of all casing screws with the exception of the large pedal screws because they go into aluminium. Instead I put a little blue loctite.

[Marty Backe]

6 hours ago, cgi said:

So, an update.

<snip>

Nice follow-up & pictures. Interesting that they are still developing new hardware for the 14S considering that it's been around a long time. Mine is still working great. BTW, if you use yours a lot you might consider getting the new larger pedals. They work great on the 14.

[cgi]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Nice follow-up & pictures. Interesting that they are still developing new hardware for the 14S considering that it's been around a long time. Mine is still working great. BTW, if you use yours a lot you might consider getting the new larger pedals. They work great on the 14.

Hi Marty,

I saw that the larger pedals were available and I was wondering about them. With the standard pedals it's possible for me to scrape a pedal on the ground occasionally when turning tightly at slow speeds, so I was wondering if the larger pedals are more susceptible to ground scrape - how do you find them? And yes I do use it at lot, it's my one and only wheel and it's used every day!

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, cgi said:

Hi Marty,

I saw that the larger pedals were available and I was wondering about them. With the standard pedals it's possible for me to scrape a pedal on the ground occasionally when turning tightly at slow speeds, so I was wondering if the larger pedals are more susceptible to ground scrape - how do you find them? And yes I do use it at lot, it's my one and only wheel and it's used every day!

I'm not a pedal scraper in general. When I switched to the larger pedals I saw no increase in scraping tendencies. They have a nice large radius on the outside corner. Beyond that I love the added comfort and the grip tape surface is much grippier than the stock pedals.

[cgi]

4 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm not a pedal scraper in general. When I switched to the larger pedals I saw no increase in scraping tendencies. They have a nice large radius on the outside corner. Beyond that I love the added comfort and the grip tape surface is much grippier than the stock pedals.

Cool! Perhaps I'll look at an upgrade then. I have large feet and the optimal foot position results in quite a bit of overhang at the front.

[Lucas Alexander Oliver]

I put the xl pedals on my 16s and it didn’t cause any more scrape at all. Which is surprising considering how much larger and how much more comfortable they are than the originals.  Definitely worth the upgrade. ...   on another note I would definitely suggest getting a backup wheel @cgi   I am constantly having to switch around due to issues of one sort or another or I run all the juice out of one and need another while the first is charging....  it alleviates the stress of a breakdown or flat.   Just imo. . 😁 keep on gliding !

[cgi]

3 hours ago, Lucas Alexander Oliver said:

I put the xl pedals on my 16s and it didn’t cause any more scrape at all. Which is surprising considering how much larger and how much more comfortable they are than the originals.  Definitely worth the upgrade. ...   on another note I would definitely suggest getting a backup wheel @cgi   I am constantly having to switch around due to issues of one sort or another or I run all the juice out of one and need another while the first is charging....  it alleviates the stress of a breakdown or flat.   Just imo. . 😁 keep on gliding !

I would really love to but... They're expensive purchases for me. I can't just buy one on a whim, it takes months of saving just for that and at the moment I have a number of expensive purchases lined up for my main hobbies (the wheel is more of a tool to me than so much of a passion as they are to many on this forum). As it is I need to squeeze at least another year's use out of the wheel before it feels like it's really paid itself off. But I knew exactly the path I was taking with purchasing a wheel, don't get me wrong! I could have joined the masses and bought a scooter (which are now available for rent in the city center, making it even more of an obstacle course than it already was).

As it is the wheel has been extremely reliable for me, until I seemingly provoked the failure of the main board. I didn't foresee it happening though and I find it strange that the circumstances did result in a failure.

So the replacement board has a bluetooth audio fault, which isn't ideal. But I can live with it because I only ever used the speakers in frivolous circumstances. Perhaps I talk to KS about it and see about getting another audio board or trying to fix it myself. Just as well it's now a separate board. Or indeed just retrofitting any generic bluetooth audio receiver and amplifier combo board. It would get rid of the voice also.

I'll take a serious look at the XL pedals.

At least I can be content that the wheel has required far less tinkering to keep moving than my old Peugeot 306 did.

[cgi]

Wheel's dead again. Seems the charger is f*cked because I plugged it into the wheel and the charger went pop and now the wheel thinks it's charging without the charger connected. I'll open it up again and try disconnecting the batteries to reset it but I suspect it's blown up something. Sigh. Was planning to go on a ride on Sunday with a mate on his bike, now I have to rent a bike.

Edit: Opened charger because it was easy to pull open and was greeted by "that smell" and a very unhappy looking resistor. I'm going out for a beer, I'll pull it open and try disconnecting and reconnecting the batteries later.

Edited June 20, 2019 by cgi

[cgi]

Yup confirmed what I suspected looking at my board pics. Those utter bar-stewards have changed the charger polarity on the internal connector. The one on my wheel is of course wired for the old board. This is absolutely ridiculous. Of course I got no warning of this and while it did cross my mind, I didn't check.

 

 

[UniVehje]

1 hour ago, cgi said:

Yup confirmed what I suspected looking at my board pics. Those utter bar-stewards have changed the charger polarity on the internal connector. The one on my wheel is of course wired for the old board. This is absolutely ridiculous. Of course I got no warning of this and while it did cross my mind, I didn't check.

That really sucks. Now you have to wait for another new board and you need a new charger also. And probably fix the charger polarity yourself. 

Any idea what is the reason for changing the polarity?

[cgi]

3 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

That really sucks. Now you have to wait for another new board and you need a new charger also. And probably fix the charger polarity yourself. 

Any idea what is the reason for changing the polarity?

I have no idea. Something KingSong decided for some reason. Maybe it made board layout easier. And yes I'll fix the connector polarity, not a problem. Pain in the butt having to wait again. And pay the VAT upon import.

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, cgi said:

Yup confirmed what I suspected looking at my board pics. Those utter bar-stewards have changed the charger polarity on the internal connector. The one on my wheel is of course wired for the old board. This is absolutely ridiculous. Of course I got no warning of this and while it did cross my mind, I didn't check.

 

 

Typical Chinese EUC manufacturer. They apparently have no concept of Configuration Management. Gotway too does this kind stuff all the time. There's no guarantee that a replacement part will work with your version of the wheel, and they won't tell you.

[cgi]

12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Typical Chinese EUC manufacturer. They apparently have no concept of Configuration Management. Gotway too does this kind stuff all the time. There's no guarantee that a replacement part will work with your version of the wheel, and they won't tell you.

Yeah, fun times! Well, the reseller has been contacted again and he's going to get in touch with them. Now I'm heading back home and motivated by some beer to open it up and see if replugging the batteries does anything. It's so unlikely it's almost a pointless exercise but may as well... If this had been the older board I could have just popped the external fuse out.

[cgi]

No joy. I unplugged the battery packs, turned it on so it would mostly drain the caps, then shorted out the main caps to really make sure it was dead. Waited a while, replugged, same thing. Nothing is obviously popped on the main board. There was no way the charger reverse current at a handful of amps was going to win over the enormous current deliverable by the batteries so it's not too surprising nothing physically blew up. But some damage has clearly occurred. I'll keep the thread updated with what comes back from KingSong, in the meantime if anyone knows anything about the KS boards and can give pointers then by all means do so, I'm not too motivated to start tracing and probing it yet.

[cgi]

An update. Not much to update, though. I and the reseller have been trying for days to get KingSong to understand that the new board that they have sent me has now also failed, due to them not telling us the very important information about the charger polarity, and that I need a new one. They keep saying that they have already sent a new board! In exasperation I have sent them this beautiful piece of artwork to illustrate things better.

I am giving them this week to sort it out before I give up and buy a replacement board and charger from Poland or whatever at great expense. But if anyone in Europe has a spare used but otherwise fully working board that they could send me I'm more than happy to do a deal there.

[UniVehje]

I know that feeling. Their support answers every time but it feels like they don’t really understand English although they seem to write decently. It also feels like they only answer to the latest message and the person changes every time so they have no understanding of the previous conversation. 

@US69 can you help with this?

[US69]

5 hours ago, cgi said:

An update. Not much to update, though. I and the reseller have been trying for days to get KingSong to understand that the new board that they have sent me has now also failed, due to them not telling us the very important information about the charger polarity, and that I need a new one. They keep saying that they have already sent a new board! In exasperation I have sent them this beautiful piece of artwork to illustrate things better.

I am giving them this week to sort it out before I give up and buy a replacement board and charger from Poland or whatever at great expense. But if anyone in Europe has a spare used but otherwise fully working board that they could send me I'm more than happy to do a deal there.

What a big mess!

Can only say Sorry for your experience! Nonetheless:

Something is strange here! AFAIK the polarity is/was not changed on new board/charger. To my Knowledge the cabling just changed, because they got rid of the fuse. But they didnt Change  polarityI on the charger. As said as far as i know. So i i am not complete sure what happend here. Perhaps it was a "one time board wire failure"...Sorry

Unfortunatly i can't speed up the process ……. especially when your seller and you allready have contacted them. In my experience that would even make them more confuse.

Do yourself and your seller a favor and from now on take Tina@szkingsong.com in cc into your E-Mail conversations. That might Speed up the process...hopefully.

 

On 6/21/2019 at 12:51 AM, cgi said:

. Nothing is obviously popped on the main board. There was no way the charger reverse current at a handful of amps was going to win over the enormous current deliverable by the batteries so it's not too surprising nothing physically blew up. But some damage has clearly occurred. I'll keep the thread updated with what comes back from

As said abovem this is all a bit mysterious. I know some reverse current failures, as some People tried to use a InMotion charger with other polarity on the 18L/XL. In all cases it was the board that popped and not the charger. As you are allready now on the second board with a failure, i suspect your charger to have had a defect. But as said: Thats all "guessing".

What i know by nearly hundertpercent is that on different board versions the polarity doesnt Change, and so not on the charger, i would have had much more Reports if that would be the case. But i try to find out more! 

Hope you have a Progress soon!!!

[cgi]

1 hour ago, US69 said:

What a big mess!

Can only say Sorry for your experience! Nonetheless:

Something is strange here! AFAIK the polarity is/was not changed on new board/charger. To my Knowledge the cabling just changed, because they got rid of the fuse. But they didnt Change  polarityI on the charger. As said as far as i know. So i i am not complete sure what happend here. Perhaps it was a "one time board wire failure"...Sorry

Hi, thanks for the reply. Just to be sure that you're understanding this correctly, it's the small white connector on the board that's a different polarity to the old board. If they changed the polarity of that but also changed the polarity of the plug that connects to it in newer wheels, it wouldn't be any different on the outside connector. That is, the polarity is the same on the charger connector on the outside of the wheel, it's just internally it has changed. But it might be that the white connector on the board on the one that they sent me was for some reason put on the wrong way round and I just had bad luck. Really what we could do with is pictures of other Version 1.4 boards to confirm.

 

1 hour ago, US69 said:

Unfortunatly i can't speed up the process ……. especially when your seller and you allready have contacted them. In my experience that would even make them more confuse.

Do yourself and your seller a favor and from now on take Tina@szkingsong.com in cc into your E-Mail conversations. That might Speed up the process...hopefully.

You say you can't speed up the process, but can you communicate with them in a more effective language than English? If so then that could be a great help as they might just be having difficulty understanding the problem when it is written in English.

Either way there is only two possible explanations: 1. They have changed the polarity of the internal charger connector on newer wheels, and failed to mention this, or 2. The board they sent had been poorly constructed and the connector was placed on it the wrong way round. Both of these issues are KingSong's fault and so I would not expect to have to pay for another replacement board.

Thanks for your help!