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Rotciv

500W/8.5A Z10 Fast Charger

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I might prepare the charger this weekend. Would the thin wires of the original charger by segway work with higher amps than original?

I bought an aftermarket cable in order to not cut the original one but I found out that the aftermarket is even slighty thinner than original (not by much but thinner)

Probably will interchange and use original cable for fast charger (6A) and aftermarket one for original charger (2A).

What do you think @Rotciv

original_vs_aftermarket_cable.jpg

Edited by pollytronman
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1 hour ago, pollytronman said:

I might prepare the charger this weekend. Would the thin wires of the original charger by segway work with higher amps than original?

I bought an aftermarket cable in order to not cut the original one but I found out that the aftermarket is even slighty thinner than original (not by much but thinner)

Probably will interchange and use original cable for fast charger (6A) and aftermarket one for original charger (2A).

What do you think @Rotciv

 

The Z10 BMS has an internal charge current limit. 8.5A afair do not work - the limit was somewhere around 6-7A?! Don't know who posted this - maybe @palachzzz?

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8 hours ago, pollytronman said:

I might prepare the charger this weekend. Would the thin wires of the original charger by segway work with higher amps than original?

I bought an aftermarket cable in order to not cut the original one but I found out that the aftermarket is even slighty thinner than original (not by much but thinner)

Probably will interchange and use original cable for fast charger (6A) and aftermarket one for original charger (2A).

What do you think @Rotciv

original_vs_aftermarket_cable.jpg

Hard to tell from the picture but it looks like the conductors are about the same. 

It should work without issues, smaller conductors has higher resistance and at higher current will start to heat up. 

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On 8/24/2019 at 9:12 PM, Evgeniy Filippov said:

Cool. )) Can you give more details on how this is done?

I don't take any picture for that. It's just 2 wires linked to XT60 connectors (for both batteries) inside the shell. And to drill a hole at the top for the external plug (I have choose a GX12-4p in my case, because of a lake of space to put a bigger one). Due to Pin diameter,  I have linked 2 pin to + and 2 min to -.

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I know its a pain but it would be really good to see a pic if you ever get round to it. I am interested to see where you put the external plug and I will see if I can find a fully waterproof one. Theres not much room around the stock battery connectors, did you just splice into them rather than add additional connectors etc?

I fully understand the risks with bypassing the bms, but this could be a really nice solution to add a bit of power whilst out and about. Even just an hour at 5a would give around 25% back if my quick calcs are right?

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On 8/14/2019 at 4:50 AM, Rotciv said:

7.5A is borderline dangerous, it will need constant monitoring. When charging at that current, I would suggest removing the battery pack and charge it outside in case you get a thermal runaway and the battery pack starts a fire. You don’t want to lose your Z10 to a fire.

I’ve been charging at 6A regularly without any issues. At 6A, there is minimal heating on the internal wires.

Find a charger that allows you to trim the output voltage. The BMS will cutoff charging when the battery pack goes above 58.7v, probably causing some cells to have less charge than others. 

My daily charger is the 5A version of this one, adjusted to output 6A and the voltage output trimmed to 58.67v.

Order the charger with GX16-3 connector and get the male connector from ElecBee.

The display meter I used above is DROK 200139US from Amazon. The meter is useful to monitor the charging voltage and current. It will also show you power and total Wh.

Following your instructions I managed to get my Wate 6A charger working fine. Trimmed voltage at about 58.65V (the potentiometer is very sensitive). So far charge speeds are about 3x faster than with original charger.

I used a Peacefair digital multimeter instead of the DROK 200139US (couldnt find the drok in Amazon Spain) but I suppose it will do ok for monitoring.

The most "dificult" part was soldering the GX16-3 connectors because I am not good at soldering but in the end I did it ok. Trimming to exact 58.67V was a pain in the ass, I ended up setting it at 58.65V.

I will attach some pictures later in case anybody find them useful.

Thanks for your help, this charger will be very useful with long extended rides ;-)

Edited by pollytronman
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1 hour ago, pollytronman said:

I can upload some pictures too if somebody needs them.

Any you have would be greatly appreciated! :)

 

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2 hours ago, pollytronman said:

Following your instructions I managed to get my Wate 6A charger working fine. Trimmed voltage at about 58.65V (the potentiometer is very sensitive). So far charge speeds are about 3x faster than with original charger.

I used a Peacefair digital multimeter instead of the DROK 200139US (couldnt find the drok in Amazon Spain) but I suppose it will do ok for monitoring.

The most "dificult" part was soldering the GX16-3 connectors because I am not good at soldering but in the end I did it ok. Trimming to exact 58.67V was a pain in the ass, I ended up setting it at 58.65V.

I will attach some pictures later in case anybody find them useful.

Thanks for your help, this charger will be very useful with long extended rides ;-)

Glad you’ve completed your fast charger, it really helps on those extended ride 👍👍 Soldering the wires to the connector is challenging but with patience, it can be done. 0.02V difference is within the margin of error when manufacturing stock chargers, nothing to worry about.

My other gripe is when I ride the Z10 hard and fast for long period and the battery pack gets hot and the BMS will not allow it to charge. I have to wait until battery pack temperature falls below 70C. Not something I do all the time, but had a few occasions. 

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On 9/7/2019 at 1:08 PM, Chriull said:

The Z10 BMS has an internal charge current limit. 8.5A afair do not work - the limit was somewhere around 6-7A?! Don't know who posted this - maybe @palachzzz?

9A limit in BMS.
 


But be carefull with 9A charging. Because the battery get hot with 9A, when the temperature of one of batteries will exceed 40 degrees - BMS will block charging. In this case, if one battery will block, but another one will continue the charging with 9A (not 4.5A per battery but 9a into one) it may cause burnout of the BMS like it was in my case :D

I use to charge 6a (350W) every day (and would say that it is safe, because it works during 6.5k+ km, and about 9 month). During this time I charged about 10 times with 9A and it was OK. 
But now I would say - that 9A not so safe)



1n81cyt.jpeg

yocpky.jpeg

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9 hours ago, palachzzz said:

9A limit in BMS.
 

But be carefull with 9A charging. Because the battery get hot with 9A, when the temperature of one of batteries will exceed 40 degrees - BMS will block charging. In this case, if one battery will block, but another one will continue the charging with 9A (not 4.5A per battery but 9a into one) it may cause burnout of the BMS like it was in my case :D

I use to charge 6a (350W) every day (and would say that it is safe, because it works during 6.5k+ km, and about 9 month). During this time I charged about 10 times with 9A and it was OK. 
But now I would say - that 9A not so safe)

Omg... that's a roasted bms... :( Will you repair it ? It's better to stick to 6A charges I suppose :s

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@Rotciv The charger is working very good :)

I attach some pictures od the charging process from 10% battery at 30min, 1h and 2h charge times. Max battery temps were 36º iirc

may I ask you a question guys? Why do you think the Z bms cuts off at 58,67V instead of 58,8V (4,2V x 14 cells) At 58,67V the cells are not at 100% nominal capacity, isn't it?

2h.jpg

1h.jpg

30min.jpg

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16 minutes ago, pollytronman said:

may I ask you a question guys? Why do you think the Z bms cuts off at 58,67V instead of 58,8V (4,2V x 14 cells) At 58,67V the cells are not at 100% nominal capacity, isn't it?

What accuracy has your voltage meter?

(58,8-58,67)/58,8 ~ 0,2%. To get such a measurement accuracy one normally has to invest some money. Beside the percentage one has some +/- last digits ..

So with "normal" multimeters/EUC build in measurement such deviations are well within range.

Ps.: Which does not mean that beeing on the "wrong" side of the measurement deviations can show such "nice" values but still everything is quite off...:(

Edited by Chriull

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42 minutes ago, pollytronman said:

Why do you think the Z bms cuts off at 58,67V instead of 58,8V

I don't know why, but I can confirm this threashold. Moreover, I didn't see more then 58.4v on batteries when charge is finished, most probably the reason - diode in BMS (basicaly, FET in reverse-diode mode). 

 

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On 9/9/2019 at 10:29 PM, Chriull said:

What accuracy has your voltage meter?

(58,8-58,67)/58,8 ~ 0,2%. To get such a measurement accuracy one normally has to invest some money. Beside the percentage one has some +/- last digits ..

Probably an order of magnitude higher. It's a cheap one. It was just curiosity.

 

I upload a picture of how I managed cable conection. This way you can just put out the polimeter once you have tested all charging values or keep it as you like.

I was testing 7A charging, transistors get hooot at 7.5A. I'll keep 7A as default since I live in a rather mild/cold region. My batteries never reached more than 36-37ºC.

wate connections.jpg

Edited by pollytronman
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Just to confirm, is the stock charging port/plug able to cope with 6A? I think I want to go with a 6A Wate charger. Also I need to find a stock charging plug as I dont want to cut the one off my stock charger.

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14 hours ago, Planemo said:

Just to confirm, is the stock charging port/plug able to cope with 6A? I think I want to go with a 6A Wate charger. Also I need to find a stock charging plug as I dont want to cut the one off my stock charger.

I think so. The cable gets mildly warm and connector is just cold. I bought the Z10 cable plus connector here (It's a bit on the expensive side though): https://es.aliexpress.com/item/32983145164.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.9a0d63c0uCEISj

Edited by pollytronman
rephrasing

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OK, and cheers for the link. It is a bit pricey I must admit. I am actually thinking of cutting off the stock plug, fitting a Deans then I can use the stock or fast chargers just by switching over the plug :)

 

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Got my Wate 6A charger today. Cut the plug off the stock charger, fitted Deans connectors to both so I can swop between chargers easily, adjusted the Wate voltage to 58.6 (it was 58.8) and job done :)

Havent used it in anger yet but having this will give me a new lease of life for longer rides.

Big thanks to @Rotciv for this one :thumbup:

972019194849.jpg.359ea29f685a59aaa35e0197ab03cd9b.jpg

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