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New guy who can't see the forest for the trees.


Cobal

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Hello all,

Nice to meet you all. I'm a dutch guy loong to get into the EUC game :)

I also posted this over at reddit in hopes of getting more input, but I suspect all of you are also on reddit :D

Recently became interested in using an EUC for my daily journey to work so I started doing the usual research into what product to buy and what budget to set.
Well that got me confused. There are so many different brands and so many seem to be the same re-branded product, yet many of these rebrands seem to have different specs and teh prices fluctuate greatly. Right now I think I should be looking at IPS, kingsong and ninebot I find it really hard to narrow down what to buy and was hoping you guys can help me with that and a few questions.

What wheel would you recommend based on the following questions and needs?

  • I am 189cm tall and weigh 96kg
  • I wish to travel a total of 12 km each day, possibly 14 if I need to shop.
  • Commute route has many intersections and red lights. Half is bike paths.
  • Mostly used on Brick roads and tile roads (lots of dips and bumps)
  • Safe as riding a bike in the dutch style. See here

Must have:

  • Waterproof. Heavy rain and puddle waterproof. This is mega important. Netherlands has worse weather than England.
  • 15km minimal range
  • Able to set/lock max speed. The idea of 30kph on a single wheel scares me (yet i’ll gladly cycle without hands like so )
  • be confident enough of stability to ride to work in a three piece suit carrying an umbrella without helmet or pads. Safety equal to cycling.
  • 120kilo capacity ( I weigh 96)
  • be suitable for long people (im dutch so everyone wanting to try it is going to be over 180cm)
  • headlight and rear light. Front light white and rear red or changable leds/bulbs (due to laws it must be these colours)
  • semi quiet. loud engine hum is ok but I do not want constant beeps and alerts if I locked it to 15kph
  • silent charger. No fan in charger. I wish to charge this in my office and my coworkers will kill me if I place a noisy device.

Nice to have:

  • Off-road capable.
  • No speakers, music function or other feature not related to riding. Waste of money, battery, and space.
  • trolley grip or other simple porting solution, or “light” weight
  • pretty casing.

Questions:

  • Apparently some have sudden shutdown errors. Is this common among all brands?
  • What is a “tiltback”? I can infer from the context but I rather ask to be sure
  • Does the wheel ever flip the user backward suddenly?
  • If the wheel fails, does it roll out on momentum or lock/break?
  • Do the apps work on smartwatches? Seems that would finally make smartwatches useful :P
  • szkingsong.com is down often reporting that Kingsong allowed the domain to expire and did not renew in time while at the same time not having a way to redirect customers to a possible new domain. This is a MASSIVE red flag to me. Is there anyone who is not affiliated with or selling kingsong who can confirm them to be reliable?

Currently IPS, KingSong and ninebot seem to be good choices. IPS has a pretty one called the zero under way and KingSong is soon to release the “K10” apparently.
If you made it this far; thank you for sitting through my questions. Hope you guys can help :)

 

[edit]Found the safety thread and removed questions I now understand[/edit]

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  • Do the apps work on smartwatches? Seems that would finally make smartwatches useful :P
  • szkingsong.com is down often reporting that Kingsong allowed the domain to expire and did not renew in time while at the same time not having a way to redirect customers to a possible new domain. This is a MASSIVE red flag to me. Is there anyone who is not affiliated with or selling kingsong who can confirm them to be reliable?

Currently IPS, KingSong and ninebot seem to be good choices. IPS has a pretty one called the zero under way and KingSong is soon to release the “K10” apparently.
If you made it this far; thank you for sitting through my questions. Hope you guys can hel 

 

Apologies as I'm a bit short on time (getting ready for work) and can't answer your other questions. But I had to make a comment, the "massive red flag" to you (kingsong's website) shouldn't matter much at all.

A company's public image is only as bad as its weakest link (they may not have someone familiar with IT or web commerce). From what I've been able to surmise, KingSong is a small company and their primary focus is making EUCs. If their main product was web design, IT or marketing on the other hand, then yes it would make a huge difference. People don't always have resources to devote to the web part of a business.

Keep in mind those here that sell KS  also sell or (used to sell) other brands of EUC. At least one of them (KaleasaurusRex) has decided to stop selling other brands because of his experience with customer service and safety features. Those threads you see about safety from him were actually before he started selling KS exclusively. The other (Jason McNeil) regularly says how the KS 14  is now one of his favorite wheels (if not the favorite wheel) -- and he sells many different brands. That's how I finally decided on KS. Because they actually listen to input and offered a feature packed EUC for a decent price.

As for me, I own both a Ninebot One E+ and just recently acquired (after tons of research) a KS 14 800 and I love them both. I almost decided on an IPS (Lhotz) unit but after communications with them directly about purchasing spare parts, the reply I received was "we don't really sell extra parts but they should last a long while" I ruled them out because of that. Ninebot and KS, on the other hand will provide spare parts. So for me that made a difference since I'm not a huge DIYer like others here and don't have the skills or ingenuity to make my own. But being able to replace parts for me is a big factor, it may not matter to you.

Off the top of my head, I would say both of the ones I've mentioned would be good. But you did mention lots of dips and bumps... So a 16" would be a better choice. IPS or Ninebot should work. Although you may need to augment the waterproofing to be completely safe. If you are OK with a larger wheel, I'd look into the KS 18". It's taller which means you can use the handle as a trolley (don't really need to pick it up most of the time, just roll it along) and you can sit on it as you ride.

This turned out to be much longer than I planned. But had to say it, a website should never be a Massive red flag for a company. -- Unless they happen to be a web design or marketing firm ;)

And I'm totally with you on smartwatches... I'd buy one if that ever happened. I'm going to ask if they can put that on their future feature list.... 

And welcome to the forums! Be warned that once you finally make your decision and acquire your first wheel, it probably won't be your last :)

 

 

 

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Safe as riding a bike in the dutch style. See here

The only way you are going to come close to that is to keep the speed low enough that you have a high likelihood of running out a fall and ending up on your feet rather than the ground.   That probably means going no faster than about 15-16 km/hr, which is much slower than most people bicycle.   (Of course actually falling off a bicycle tends to be more serious - but it is also an order of magnitude or two less likely to happen) 

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The only way you are going to come close to that is to keep the speed low enough that you have a high likelihood of running out a fall and ending up on your feet rather than the ground.   That probably means going no faster than about 15-16 km/hr, which is much slower than most people bicycle.   (Of course actually falling off a bicycle tends to be more serious - but it is also an order of magnitude or two less likely to happen) 

Not to mention, you can quickly gain a solid skill level on a bike whereas it may take months of riding an EUC to eliminate all "skill related" accidents with riding an EUC, so even if you have the safest EUC ever designed it won't be as safe as a bike until you've mastered commuting on it.

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Apologies for the late reply folks, I managed to lose the thread and thought I had posted this on another forum.

Considering how clogged the bike paths are over here 15km is the max speed I'll be able to reach anyway, except for a few straight stretches but those have nice flat red asphalt bike paths.
I've now tried out a nameless/brandless 14" thing and concluded that this will never be as safe as biking, a skate helmet and wrist protectors seem a good idea.

Based on what you all and folks elsewhere have told me, and what I discovered about laws in NL I conclude I need to wait a bit before I can buy one.
16" inch seems the way to go. Waterproofness is not good enough yet. Device legally requires front light, back light, reflectors in both red and white and room for a license plate if it can go faster than 25km/h.

King sing's site is back up and they seem to be gearing up for a 16"  model. That will probably be the one for me.

Speaking of kingsong..

A company's public image is only as bad as its weakest link (they may not have someone familiar with IT or web commerce). From what I've been able to surmise, KingSong is a small company and their primary focus is making EUCs. If their main product was web design, IT or marketing on the other hand, then yes it would make a huge difference. People don't always have resources to devote to the web part of a business.

~~~ Snip ~~~

 a website should never be a Massive red flag for a company. -- Unless they happen to be a web design or marketing firm ;)

While I understand your point about the website being down I personally see that as a very outdated viewpoint.

Not having someone familiar with IT or e-commerce is really not ok in 2015. Especially for a worldwide selling company.  

The idea that websites are not important or can be an afterthought, and that they may not have an computer guy to do that for them because not everyone has a computer guy is extremely outdated. Aside from that you don’t need a computer guy for something simple as a website anymore. You could get away with that in the 90’s, barely. Now not anymore.

 

A companies website is their first and foremost front facing connection to their customer. If you only have one single brick and mortar store like kingsong does, then your website is the only store front that counts and the brick and mortar shop is just a stage for photo’s.  

Even if you have more then one brick and mortar store, your website is STILL your most important store front. A brick and mortar can never match up to that level.

especially to one that sells stuff worldwide. If a company cannot even be bothered to go through the extremely minor steps to keep a website online then that is a massive red flag.
In this specific case it did not go down for technical reasons. They simply failed to pay the hosting company for renewal. You could tell this was the case because going to szkingsong.com while it was down brought you to a landing page from the ISP that the domain was available for purchase or renewal.

To me that is a double red flag, actually allowing your domain to lapse, because it can Insta-kill your company.

 

Internet is where it’s at, fail that simple task and how am I to believe they will not fail at actual complicated tasks? Like making a safe and waterproof transportation device.

Having said that. by now I’ve seen that everywhere folks are lyrical about kingsong and that indeed I can ignore their major website mishap, so Ill probably go for a 16"shoudl they release one. But that doesn't make it any less unprofesional to allow a domain to lapse. 

 

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Chaps, just to give you the heads up: King Song has recently acquired the KingSong.com domain. We're helping them get setup with a fairly basic information page, for now, but this will be the official 'go to' site for King Song product information in the future. 

On the issue of waterproofing: the Mark/Gen II stuff is infinitely better than the first batch & this will only get better as the King Song brand begins to gain traction.   

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While I understand your point about the website being down I personally see that as a very outdated viewpoint.
Not having someone familiar with IT or e-commerce is really not ok in 2015. Especially for a worldwide selling company. 

Like walking into IBM's, Googles or Apples headquarter and slamming your head on the not-working glass door, then the clerk inside holds up a sign saying:
Sorry we're not very familiar with doorlocks, but you should check out our Website!
:D:D:D

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Internet is where it’s at, fail that simple task and how am I to believe they will not fail at actual complicated tasks? Like making a safe and waterproof transportation device.

Internet, isn't that dead?

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First of all, I have to apologize to anyone if this sounds like a flame-war. @cobal sorry but you seem to be someone who rarely likes to be told they might be wrong. I say this because my first post makes a short comment about their website and the rest of my post genuinely tries giving you helpful recommendations on wheels that might work for you. 

Your response to that fails to acknowledge the help and instead focuses on the website comment and defend against it. Could be wrong though..

Having said that I'll respond to what you wrote. Because I disagree. Try not to take the fact that I'm trying to prove you wrong personally ;)

 

 

While I understand your point about the website being down I personally see that as a very outdated viewpoint.

Not having someone familiar with IT or e-commerce is really not ok in 2015. Especially for a worldwide selling company.  

 

 

That viewpoint comes from “Never judge a book by its cover”  – Sorry but  I don’t believe that saying will ever be outdated. 

I never said it was OK to not have someone familiar with e-commerce or IT.  Just said you shouldn’t write off a company for not being savvy enough to create a website. It would be one thing if they were stagnant and refused to improve. As Jason McNeil mentioned, King Song is working on their website as we speak. But they chose to make a low cost, nearly superior product their first priority  -- NOT marketing.

 

Hole in the wall restaurants that serve the best food you may have ever tasted. I'm sure you've heard of these. They may not have a decent website. Why? It could be a small staff whose owner feels their priority isn’t a stellar internet presence. Their focus is food. I don't consider it a "Massive red flag" if a restaurant I'm considering eating at lacks a great website. Because there could be a number reasons why.

 

 

Take a look at the “What’s wrong with Airwheel? thread if you want to see a company that focuses most of their resources on marketing and almost none on products development. King Song comes under fire in that thread too (heck I'm one of the ones letting them have it!), for their lack of a good public image – I admitted in that thread if I wasn’t open minded enough to look past the initial impressions, I would have never given them a chance. Because their public image is (from a marketing standpoint) horrible . 

 

 

The idea that websites are not important or can be an afterthought, and that they may not have an computer guy to do that for them because not everyone has a computer guy is extremely outdated. Aside from that you don’t need a computer guy for something simple as a website anymore. You could get away with that in the 90’s, barely. Now not anymore.

 

Never said unimportant or an afterthought -- just not their priority. And Jason McNeil has said he's helping them through this. Why? Like I mentioned in my first post, they don't have resources to dedicate to it. Be it time, people, money, knowledge etc. But they're working on it. -- That's what's most important.

 

 

A companies website is their first and foremost front facing connection to their customer. If you only have one single brick and mortar store like kingsong does, then your website is the only store front that counts and the brick and mortar shop is just a stage for photo’s.  

Even if you have more then one brick and mortar store, your website is STILL your most important store front. A brick and mortar can never match up to that level.

especially to one that sells stuff worldwide. If a company cannot even be bothered to go through the extremely minor steps to keep a website online then that is a massive red flag.
In this specific case it did not go down for technical reasons. They simply failed to pay the hosting company for renewal. You could tell this was the case because going to szkingsong.com while it was down brought you to a landing page from the ISP that the domain was available for purchase or renewal.

To me that is a double red flag, actually allowing your domain to lapse, because it can Insta-kill your company.

 

I'm well aware of the importance of a website presence and SEO. And I’ve worked with enough companies to see things slip through the cracks. Look at how many times it has happened and made headline news. Anti-virus companies flagging Windows components as viruses and rendering computers non-op. Car manufacturers: Brake pedals causing unexpected acceleration. It’s all about the weakest link. The CEO is rarely aware of what their IT, QA or Programmer guy decides or forgets to do. But from what I see, King Song is a company that actively tries to improve so I am overlooking their website mishap. Mistakes do happen, it's just a fact.

 

 

 

Internet is where it’s at, fail that simple task and how am I to believe they will not fail at actual complicated tasks? Like making a safe and waterproof transportation device.

Having said that. by now I’ve seen that everywhere folks are lyrical about kingsong and that indeed I can ignore their major website mishap, so Ill probably go for a 16"shoudl they release one. But that doesn't make it any less unprofesional to allow a domain to lapse. 

 

Never said it wasn't "Unprofessional", seems to be a lot of putting words in my mouth to prove a point. Ever seen a person trip while walking?  Based on your logic a person that trips (while you happen to be watching them), fails at simple tasks and is a massive red flag that they can't do anything right. See my point? 

The website mishap was a trip. If I see someone trip, I don't judge their competence at the job based on that. Because they're completely unrelated.

King Song makes the safest product out there currently. Their waterproofing in the latest model is on par with the others. But they are horrible at marketing. They are completely unrelated so I let them slide.

It's funny that after all that, you concede that their products are worth looking at even though their website wasn’t up and running --which is the point of my first post in the first place. So I think you proved the point of my original post.  Websites are certainly important to certain companies but their product can't be judged based on that. 

 

King Song and some of the best hole in the wall restaurants, mechanics and Katana swordsmiths are proof of that. B)

 

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Like walking into IBM's, Googles or Apples headquarter and slamming your head on the not-working glass door, then the clerk inside holds up a sign saying:Sorry we're not very familiar with doorlocks, but you should check out our Website! :D:D:D

Wow Kingsong is as big as Google? Do tell :P 

Try a small shop setting up at a new location and doing business while they wait for the locksmith to show up to change their locks.

 

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  • 1 month later...

Speaking of Gotway, let's talk about lack of English language web presence :)

Based on what you've written above, I think the King Song 16" to be released is an option to consider. The 18" units are well liked as well among most of the owners I've talked to as well, although perhaps not quite as practical  in the urban setting as the upcoming 16" due to size.

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