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1000 km., MSX Review...

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MSX climbs better than Monster also better in traffic for stop and go (thanks to stiff firmware). 100V Monster is the best high speed, long distance cruiser (obviously with a 22" tire).

MONSTER=Battleship

MSX=Destroyer

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7 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

MSX climbs better than Monster also better in traffic for stop and go (thanks to stiff firmware).

Not if you know how to use Gotway soft mode IMHO ;)

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22 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Not if you know how to use Gotway soft mode IMHO ;)

Please educate us Chris.  I would love to hear about this technique.  Have you gotten your 100v Monster yet?  

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G

24 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Yes, with me now~ And just like my 84V Monster before it, the power / acceleration uphill is there plenty, but traditional stand-leaning in a straight direction/orientation won't really unlock it.

While it may be counter-intuitive at first, the concept of Gotway soft mode is that you use less effort to elicit the same motor power response of the wheel that you would on a harder mode setting. Additionally, because the pedals swing more in Gotway soft mode, they will dip down when pressed forward, which will actually put your feet in a more optimal 45º angle pivot, better to exert force on the pedals (think of how a sprinter pushes off 45º starting blocks). Thus, the regular standing position, toe lean EUC acceleration is actually not a very optimal way to transmit force on the pedals; using my sprinter example, pushing off flat ground is not nearly as powerful as pushing off 45º angled starter blocks. And on EUC, with the right technique, we can constantly be pushing off starter blocks, pushing in quick left-right (almost bike pedaling) succession, to build very good acceleration on even a huge and lumbering wheel like the Monster.

And the force I speak of is driven by mostly body weight, not much active lean force. In soft mode, I'll start with my feet flush and parallel on the pedals, but initiating a slight lunge position where my torso leans forward over my bent left leg a bit, but I'm driving the majority of my weight into my straightened right leg through my right hip going into my right heel on the pedal (right arm reaching back will emphasize this hip-drive), and slightly lean the EUC body in the left-turning direction, almost as if I'm about to do a one-leg trick. Concurrently, my bent left leg will gradually apply/transfer increasing force on the left pedal until that left leg straightens out and assumes the same hip-driving position my right leg was in, right leg assuming the bend now. This will alternate into a quick successive pumping action, and basically look somewhat similar to how a cyclist hard pedals their bicycle to speed up, with bicycle body leaning back-and-forth, left-right-left-right.

Hopefully this might make some sense, but FWIW, an easier way to feel the full uphill power of the Monster is to just sit down on the nose of the wheel (albeit, there is a small learning curve to seated riding as well). Actually, when I really need to accelerate the fastest on the Monster, I just plop right down :lol::lol:

Great explanation!  I have read other description of your stance and riding method in the past, but this explanation really painted the picture for me perfectly.  After owning many wheels in the past, I’ve always wanted to try the Monster.  I’m fascinated with this riding technique and your description may push me over the top to give it a try. Seated riding is something. I really want to try to master.  I haven’t been that successful in the past, but want to get past that.  Thanks for your input.

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3 minutes ago, Sketch said:

Great explanation!  I have read other description of your stance and riding method in the past, but this explanation really painted the picture for me perfectly.  After owning many wheels in the past, I’ve always wanted to try the Monster.  I’m fascinated with this riding technique and your description may push me over the top to give it a try. 

No problem, glad it made some kind of sense! :lol:

FWIW, this is not only applicable to the Monster, but all wheels. However, it's the weird, exaggerated dimension wheels like the Monster and Z10 that forces one to learn this, as you can get away with less complicated techniques on smaller traditional wheels, but not so much on behemoths like the Monster. 

 

3 minutes ago, Sketch said:

Seated riding is something. I really want to try to master.  I haven’t been that successful in the past, but want to get past that.  Thanks for your input.

Seated riding is easier to master I think, than the soft mode / pumping technique I described above.

The keys for me were to "sit" with my outstretched arm first, palm down on the front of the seat (I actually use my stiff arm against the seat as a second "butt" force a lot for seated riding :lol:); and to make sure my heels go up when fully sitting (toes on the fronts of the pedals), with knees pointing out (stable triangle base) and not a lot of weight on the feet in general, as they steer more than they press the pedals for acceleration.

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4 minutes ago, Stoney said:

How about doing a video of you on your new MONSTER

Yes, planning on it, but the weather has been a bit crap here in NYC of late unfortunately.

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24 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Seated riding is easier to master I think, than the soft mode / pumping technique I described above.

 The keys for me were to "sit" with my outstretched arm first, palm down on the front of the seat (I actually use my stiff arm against the seat as a second "butt" force a lot for seated riding :lol:); and to make sure my heels go up when fully sitting (toes on the fronts of the pedals), with knees pointing out (stable triangle base) and not a lot of weight on the feet in general, as they steer more than they press the pedals for acceleration.

The seated triangle base makes sense.  Do you have any techniques on braking a mammoth wheel like the Monster...especially at higher speeds?

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No technique can overcome the better torque of a smaller wheel in acceleration or hillclimbing. If you apply your @houseofjob fast Monster technique to an MSX or MCM5, you'll simply get even better performance out of the smaller wheels. Also I monitored amp draw. From red light accelerations, my Monster draws the highest amps, because of the mechanical disadvantage. The MCM5 has 1500watts to its 14 wheel, with wider magnets too. It feels in control all the time, even on ridiculously step inclines and declines. That little thing is mind-blowing.  I believe the Monster needs at least 2500 to 3000watts  to its 22 inch wheel to match the same level of performance as the MCM5.

Ratios:

MCM5: 1500/14 = 107.14watts per inch

MSX: 2000/19 = 105.26watts per inch

Monster: 2000/22 = 90.9watts per inch

Nikola: 2000/17 = 117.65watts per inch

Theoretical Monster should be 107.14 x 22 = 2357 watt motor to match the feel of MCM5, but I think the wider tire will add rotational weight and need even more watts, like 2500 to 3000.

I don't know if the MSX has the right power. When I descend steep hills slowly, it feels on the edge of giving way. When I descend the same hill, same speed, on a new KS18XL, I feel in tight control. But when I break hard and fast on flat ground the MSX feels more in control. Wonder if this is just firmware stuff!? People say Nikola feels sluggish, but in theory it should have more watts per inch than MCM5. Perhaps rotational weight or fat tire ground contact is even more burdensome than we thought.

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1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

This will alternate into a quick successive pumping action, and basically look somewhat similar to how a cyclist hard pedals their bicycle to speed up, with bicycle body leaning back-and-forth, left-right-left-right.

I concur 100% on this method as a performance riding style. I ride my MSX in hard mode with an 8 degree forward tilt and utilize a similar carve/pump technique. I might give soft mode a try, deeply respect the riding styles of @houseofjob and @Tishawn Fahie, two soft mode advocates.

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38 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

watts per inch

Watts per inch bear no meaning for the acceleration feel or hill climbing properties of a wheel. Larger wheels require more physical lean for the same acceleration, no matter the maximum power.

One example is MCM4 vs Ninebot S2. I believe they both have a 800W motor, and both MCM4s I’ve ridden even have double the battery size, IIRC. Yet the S2 feels quite peppy and capable, while the MCM4 feels like it’s going to tip over at any moment, despite using the hard mode. I almost lost my balance at a 1” curb.

And as you had calculated, MSX and MCM4 have near identical W/inch, yet MSX is a slouch and MCM5 is the awarded hill-climbing champion.

The announced power of the motor is a roughly calculated maximum nominal power it can give. For short bursts it can give many times that. Only quite a few riders might have reached the maximum motor power on any wheel. When the max power capabilities of the battery+motor combination are surpassed, the rider falls forward. Mostly due to lack of sufficient battery power for the requested lean.

Up to that point it’s the firmware behaviour and the laws of physics that create the feeling of slow or fast acceleration.

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1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

I don't know if the MSX has the right power. When I descend steep hills slowly, it feels on the edge of giving way. When I descend the same hill, same speed, on a new KS18XL, I feel in tight control. But when I break hard and fast on flat ground the MSX feels more in control. Wonder if this is just firmware stuff!? People say Nikola feels sluggish, but in theory it should have more watts per inch than MCM5. Perhaps rotational weight or fat tire ground contact is even more burdensome than we thought.

Yes - firmware, as @mrelwood has written has a big influence. How much the cpu tells the motor to accelerate for which pedal angle (how "aggressive" the PID controll loops is set)

Then there is a "simple" mechanical system of the "levers": at which height are the pedals and how long they are determines how much torque a rider can apply at the wheel with his weight force. There was ?some? years ago a great post about all this levers/physical limitations/possibilities.

Battery configuration is very important, too. The more cells are in parallel, the more current they can deliver. DC motor torque is directly proportional to motor current! Fully charged batteries can deliver more current than stressed batteries on low charge. Although afair i read that with new technologies they got the increasing inner resistance of li ion cells with decreasing charge under control - so this "problem" could be refuced shortly with new li ion cell generations?!

As, also above written by @mrelwood, motor power announced by the manufacturers are more or less housenumbers.

Ecodrift made dynamometer tests a couple of years ago https://airwheel.ru/2017/10/27/test-monokoles-na-dinostende/

The 16 inch wheels in this time were able to deliver a bit more then 2000 Watts, the 18 inch Msuper V3+ 1600Wh ~4.6kW.

The numbers from this tests are the absolute maximum, and he afair destroyed some wheels/fuses... But this maximum numbers are the interesting valus for the "normal" agility feeling - if there are peaks/burdens, how "aggressive and smooth" the wheel can react to/counter this.

For acceleration the Nm (torque) is the more meaningful number than Watts. This number is very high at low speeds and goes linear to zero for the "lift cut off speed". At low speeds its limited by firmware, otherwise the high currents would instantly fry the mosfets/cables and the motor.

I cannot find a senseful use for W/inch for wheels? That would make sense for something like led stripes or heat wires - emitted light/heat power per length...

For wheels the torque: Force times length is an important number, so Watts times inch could make sense. If one had the maximum power output, like from the dynamometer tests and with the knowledge that:

- maximum power is reached at half maximum speed (lift cut off speed)

- motor back emv is half the battery voltage at this half maximum speed

- motor torque is directly proportional to the motor current.

If one considers "half the battery voltage" as constant (i.e. all the compared models are 84V models) this maximum power is directly proportional to the motor current and by this to the torque and one gets by this Wm a value proportional to the torque. But unfortionately at different speeds ( half the lift cut off speed varies widely for all the models) and additionally maximum motor output power is not known for the models....

So imho from manufacturer announced specs one cannot derive any usefull/very limited number(s) for acceleration/agility/performance.

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8 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

No technique can overcome the better torque of a smaller wheel in acceleration or hillclimbing.

Sure, but you can you can bridge the gap to a degree where the tradeoffs measure in favor of the bigger wheel, depending on your priorities.

Of course, if you're trying to mountain climb with your wheel, go small, even smaller. But I've never professed to have much interest in climbing the Andes with my EUC :lol::lol:

 

giphy.gif

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Sketch said:

The seated triangle base makes sense.  Do you have any techniques on braking a mammoth wheel like the Monster...especially at higher speeds?

Well, it's a combination of things, at least for me.

First off, on any wheel, I don't initiate braking with just a straight, singular stiff body lean, like I feel most riders do. My upper torso and lower legs are detached in general while riding (not only for braking), so that my upper torso moves/acts first, then my lower legs follow a step behind, in delay.

For braking, what this feels like step-by-step is:

  1. while my wheel is moving, my upper torso moves back in relation to my lower legs, but since the wheel is still moving forward, it feels like one of those cartoons where they slice the character in half, and the upper torso stops traveling, remaining behind, while the lower legs keep rolling along.
  2. as I do the above, my lower legs + wheel are still moving forward but no forward pressure is being applied to the pedals/wheel, so momentum is naturally being lost, dissipating some speed before any proper braking even takes place.
  3. only after the above, do I apply any real braking pressure to the backs of the pedals, since the lower legs are now "caught up" to the change direction backwards vector of the upper torso

From this disjointed initiation of the brake (which BTW, is similarly applicable to pendulums into backwards riding), I then apply the pump acceleration method described above, but in reverse (as with everything backwards in EUC).

Combined with this reverse pump braking, I try to S-curving in tandem, to increase stopping distance.

 

This has served me well with any EUC braking really.

Sure, the Monster braking can even then, be a tad on the lagging side, but riding in Gotway soft mode in general makes you accustomed to prepping your actions 1-2 steps ahead of time.

Also FWIW you get great Monster braking when transferring from seated riding into an arm-lean initiated, standing up S-curve brake.

The ultimate Monster braking I did once on my old 84V, was when I needed to brake all-of-a-sudden after following a suddenly braking car at city traffic speeds, I instinctively stiff armed my Monster seat, dismounting from my Monster at the tail end of this emergency braking, ending up in a running dismount, which dissipated a lot of the speed momentum from the Monster to my physical running body.

I don't really advise that kind of sudden, medium-speed dismount braking though (but I really really wish I had caught it on video :lol:)

Edited by houseofjob
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@houseofjob thank for all the info., very valuable as always and I as well looking forward to you 100v Monster review. I am patiently holding off for New, redesigned Monster w integrated handle (hope) or possibly Updated MSX 100v (if/ when) it comes out, but I did enjoy the 84v Monster when I had it for short time.

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1 minute ago, yourtoys7 said:

@houseofjob thank for all the info., very valuable as always and I as well looking forward to you 100v Monster review. I am patiently holding off for New, redesigned Monster w integrated handle (hope)

Sure thing~

I was waiting for the same redesign Monster as well, but when Gotway confirmed no proper redesign this year, I pulled the trigger on this 100V because I didn't want to go another year without a 22" :lol: (had me slightly regretting my preemptive 84V Monster sale last year; never doing that again for the large-form factor category).

My guess is that, at best, we'll see a whole different other model (possibly a bigger 24" **fingers crossed**), like how the 16" category has evolved from ACM-to-Tesla-to-Nikola.

 

1 minute ago, yourtoys7 said:

or possibly Updated MSX 100v (if/ when) it comes out, but I did enjoy the 84v Monster when I had it for short time.

I think the 100V MSX is still too new. Possible spec bump upgrade (2.5kW motor perhaps?) maybe in 2020(?) 

This year definitely seems like both Gotway and King Song are more focused on maximizing their existing lines, with the likes of adding handle disengage buttons (2019 Tesla, 2019 KS-16S) and the like.

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11 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Watts per inch bear no meaning for the acceleration feel or hill climbing properties of a wheel.

Since torque linearly depends on the wheel diameter, there's some justification that it does matter.

But it shouldn't be the motor wattage (which just roughly tells you when the motor presumably overheats and is a rough proxy for how powerful the motor feels), but the measured used wattage for a certain acceleration. Motor wattage does indeed say nothing.

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I am considering watts per inch not as a scientific measure (obviously), but as some way to gauge performance between wheels, even wheels of the same wheel size. All manufacturers could market their wheels on torque/force (ft/lbs) and remove any mystery, and still there are so many other factors that make the ride different. I think watts per inch is the only thing we have to go on as consumers. When we consider a "spec bump" to 2500 watts for the next MSX 100V, we are saying that keeping the same inch (19) and adding 500 more watts should yield better performance...increasing the watts per inch from 2000/19 = 105.26 to 2500/19 = 131.58

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1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

adding 500 more watts should yield better performance.

Perhaps you should read mine and meep’s replies above again more carefully. They are not just theories on how these things might work.

”Performance” is a vague word. I assume we are still talking about perceived acceleration.

Increasing the power handling of the motor (nominal or maximum) does not improve the preceived acceleration of the wheel. No matter how convenient it would be for comparisons.

With a car you can do a maximum acceleration. With an EUC you can’t. Any maximum value of an EUC is not utilized anyway, so they are meaningless when comparing medium accelerations between EUCs.

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

I think watts per inch is the only thing we have to go on as consumers

What’s the point when it doesn’t tell us anything?

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16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Perhaps you should read mine and meep’s replies above again more carefully. They are not just theories on how these things might work.

”Performance” is a vague word. I assume we are still talking about perceived acceleration.

Increasing the power handling of the motor (nominal or maximum) does not improve the preceived acceleration of the wheel. No matter how convenient it would be for comparisons.

With a car you can do a maximum acceleration. With an EUC you can’t. Any maximum value of an EUC is not utilized anyway, so they are meaningless when comparing medium accelerations between EUCs.

What’s the point when it doesn’t tell us anything?

We are only given basic facts when selecting a wheel to purchase: Brand, tire size, battery size, watts of motor, weight, and stated max speed. If Gotway says they have a new wheel that has 1500 watts, I say okay tell me more. If they say 1500 watts on the next MSuper with a 19 inch wheel I know it will have "performance" not to my liking. If they say 1500 watts on the next Mten, I would say WOW I'm definitely interested because that many watts on a wheel with so few inches is something I know will be mind blowing. My purchasing mindset isn't scientific, and my expectations are based on the known brand performance reputation.  Obviously firmware, battery, and tire type will play a role in over all performance, but if those parameters are roughly the same as past brand configurations then watts to inches will be the single largest determining factor in performance (acceleration, hill climbing, max speed).

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2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Increasing the power handling of the motor (nominal or maximum) does not improve the preceived acceleration of the wheel.

In practice it does. At least most of the time. Good enough. Anything quantitative is BS though. But you can say a 16 incher with a 2000W motor will feel more powerful than a 16 incher with a 1200W motor.

+1 for manufacturer actually giving meaningful specs (like torque!).

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2 hours ago, Michael Tucker said:

Obviously firmware, battery, and tire type will play a role in over all performance, but if those parameters are roughly the same as past brand configurations then watts to inches will be the single largest determining factor in performance (acceleration, hill climbing, max speed).

Sorry do be a very direct now, but as written watt per inch is just absolut bullshit. As the watts announced from the manufacturers are.

i am sorry, but there is nothing but your feeling that gives this number any sense.

Maybe it results from the watts from the manufacturers is just some numbers somehow increasing from model to model which makes this number look valid. But it is not and cannot - as there is no sence in multiplying distance and time instead of dividing it for velocity...

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21 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Not if you know how to use Gotway soft mode IMHO ;)

I rode on the soft mode for quite a while, went back to hard for a bit but quickly switched back to soft...but then I went back to hard and feel like I can't go back.  While I really enjoy the braking and accelerating on soft mode (just feels a little more "fun", dunno how else to describe), I can't get over how it affects quick turns left and right when carving, slaloming, and just swishing around.  The hard mode feels much more in control and exact when doing those actions.

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