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Safest posture for riding and best way to fall?


tenofnine

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On 5/12/2019 at 9:41 AM, Darrell Wesh said:

I doubt you ride like that. Most everyone is doing the arms at the side and facing straight. You may think you ride “sidewayz” 

We may call it different things, but a number of us are adopting much more active, looser riding styles, especially for performance riding. @houseofjob has his "active hands," @Tishawn Fahie is, of course, Tishawn, and more and more of us ride constantly shifting and swaying, very active above the torso but also below and in the hips. Side-cocked hips while riding are definitely a thing now, especially in photos when if they catch you all up on one side. :)

miles-64.gif.3b82e9835492834f017be6ca14a62294.gif

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I only weigh 140 lbs and only sit on well known well paved roads. I figure that I'm light enough that it won't break. I avoid any and all bumps when seated. I'll work on the video today. Check the Facebook page for a pic of the seat.

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I've seen some people sitting while riding the Tesla as well (U-Stride being the latest). I tried it today and it's a bit uncomfortable but the tall shape is more than enough to get to a seated position without wobbles (can't imagine the cross trolley handle on the 18xl is comfy but I've never tried it). I'll have to get one of my sewing talented friends to do a bit of skill trade and make me a nice seat. I think riding these things seated looks just as cool as riding them proper.

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Nice! I was thinking of doing the same thing but then wrapping it in some durable weatherproof cloth and having someone sew it well. This layered foam way is probably the best way for a DIY seat without much fuss.

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On 5/15/2019 at 1:06 AM, mrelwood said:

If this thread is about comparing various stands that each have taken impact or cut-out protection in consideration, I think it will be just mind-stormings of only a few persons on minor theoretical differences.

I think the issue that concerns the riding stance is that many people ride with straight legs and locked knees, and hands deep in their pockets. Which I believe to be the worst possible stance for aerodynamics, as well as crash avoidance and crash survival.

I ride with bent knees for suspension and pothole survival, and my thumbs in my jacket pockets so my hands won’t get numb from hanging freely on the sides, which would make them slow to react in case of a crash.

If it gets windy at speed, I cross my hands in front of my chest or stomach. The effect of the wind gets notably smaller this way.

I think even just this level of consideration would be a huge improvement in safety for most riders.

I'd also add that bending your knees get you closer to the ground, closer you are, less distance you'll cover when you do fall.

And crazy suggestion; practice falling. Fully padded, helmet and on grass while stationary should be safe.  This is a regular part of any martial art training involving regular falls and I find it helpful myself (if a bit weird looking).

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  • 2 weeks later...

I learnt and practised this move for a bit: 

 

I figured that if you fly off an EUC, you'd probably end up hitting the ground with enough forward momentum to execute this move right. Since then, I've had a couple of crashes that prove to me that it does help, but is insufficient to completely shrug off injuries.

 

  • Skidded on wet tile at ~8km/h. Hit the ground hard on my knee, then rolled it off. No injuries, but the next day, my right tricep felt like it had gone through a tough workout.
  • Accidentally turned off my Inmotion V8 by the handle button (less than 5km/h) while trying to switch the fancy side LED lights on. Landed on kneepads and gloves, no roll, no injuries.
  • Wheel turned off at 23km/h while accelerating: Landed on kneepads, gloves, right unprotected elbow, skidded for a bit, and rolled once.
    • Shredded my jeans' knees but didn't burn through to the kneepads underneath or skin. Kneepads shifting around during the crash gave me a small burn on both knees.
    • Glove palms were shredded, and have through-holes in them, right glove knuckles have slide marks on them, hands completely uninjured
    • Left elbow uninjured. Right elbow has a small abrasion (~3cm diameter, <1mm deep). Back of right forearm (same side as the knuckles) has an abrasion of about 13cm x 4cm size, and <1mm thickness.
    • No internal injuries

 

Conclusions:

The roll will save you, but if you go into the roll at too high a speed, something akin to a plane landing happens -- you skid for a bit on the ground before you begin rolling. image.png

Pad your knees. They're always the first to hit the ground after your feet.

As for a safe riding posture, keep your hands free, forward if possible, or otherwise unimpeded from coming forward in an emergency. Whether you're recovering from weird terrain, wobbling to a stop before crashing, or flying off your wheel, your hands should automatically come around and flail to stabilize or protect you during a crash. In a nutshell, figure out how you want to land if you crash, then make sure that you can immediately get into that position before you hit the ground, and you have a safe riding stance that works for you.

Edited by hyperair
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5 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

never understood why people practice rolls and what not. I’ve never intentionally bailed from my wheel except for in the early learning phases. All my rare dismounts nowadays are unplanned, and being unplanned means no time to prepare for them. 

Is mountain climbing without a rope dangerous? Only if you fall! Otherwise, if you keep well within your abilities then you are perfectly safe.

You can be prepared to roll off an EUC; if you ride like you'll be dumped at any time for any or no reason then you'll be fine. However, it is this tension that makes riding an EUC at high speeds "not so fun anymore".

I will point out that practice is invaluable on even the most absurdly difficult tasks. For example, clipping pedals used to be a crash, but the last times I've clipped pedals I've gracefully run off, so much so that I was hoping someone saw that. I guess that's still technically a crash because the wheel tumbles.

Unfortunately, I think wheels ARE more akin to skateboards despite their expense, because wheels are so damned prone to crashing on even the silliest situation. So you need to both train not to crash and train what to do once you've gone ahead and crashed.

I used to tell people wheels are easy to learn and easy to ride, and while I think that is still true, I also think they might be a vehicle most likely to crash if you're new. While old hands crash very rarely, maybe once a year or every 10k miles, they still do crash at far higher rates that bicyclists do (I estimate half of adult bicyclists have never crashed as an adult).

Now in your crashes, what happens?

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2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Now in your crashes, what happens?

The last time I crashed, as in fell along with the wheel, was when I was on the Z10 trying to impress a girl. The Z changes it handling depending on how fast you’re going and I thought I was going fast enough to be able to carve deep but I wasn’t and the Z merely turned around causing my pedals to clip badly. I fell sideways on my arm at low speed, no harm done no abrasion. Very unplanned dismount. 

Ive wrote about how I wobbled off an MSX at 33mph. The thing with wobbles is you don’t want to bail on the wheel because you usually get them when you’re going fast. So you want to try and control them and if you don’t succeed it throws you off. 

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

So you need to both train not to crash and train what to do once you've gone ahead and crashed.

Unfortunately the latter part is not possible. Once you’ve gone ahead and crashed it’s up to if you were anticipating the crash or not for how the outcome will be. If you were not anticipating or prepared for a crash then it will take you by surprise. If you were anticipating a crash then that means you planned to bail which means you probably didn’t actually crash but just bailed at the slightest bit of instability. 

When I was wobbling on the MSX at 30+mph (my first day of having it!)I planned to bail. I told myself I could no longer stay on and that I would go limp and let my knees crash first and not try to run any steps. Which is what happened. And I subsequently rolled four or five times, pushed myself back up and ran the excess momentum off,  no harm done

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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On 5/16/2019 at 9:28 PM, Flyboy10 said:

I'll post a video on my youtube channel about it soon. but in the meantime buy a pack of floor mats for lifting weights. https://photos.app.goo.gl/7t5VLWN9CLwhWznJ6 here is a vid from my ride to work today

how tall are you if you don't mind me asking?

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10 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Unfortunately the latter part is not possible. Once you’ve gone ahead and crashed it’s up to if you were anticipating the crash or not for how the outcome will be. If you were not anticipating or prepared for a crash then it will take you by surprise. If you were anticipating a crash then that means you planned to bail which means you probably didn’t actually crash but just bailed at the slightest bit of instability. 

I certainly was not expecting my wheel to cut off at 23km/h, and it wouldn't turn back on until I unplugged the voltmeter and waited for half an hour. I don't know where you got the idea that I was bailing at the slightest bit of instability from, but this wasn't it. My hands went out in front of me as I went down, and while I skidded on the tarmac for a bit at the beginning, I had the presence of mind to transition into a roll instead of continuing to skid on my increasingly raw skin. 

Alternatively, I could have stuck my hands in my pockets instead of keeping them free, and just planted my face into the ground instead, because who needs to learn how to fall correctly, right?

10 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

 When I was wobbling on the MSX at 30+mph (my first day of having it!)I planned to bail. I told myself I could no longer stay on and that I would go limp and let my knees crash first and not try to run any steps. Which is what happened. And I subsequently rolled four or five times, pushed myself back up and ran the excess momentum off,  no harm done

If you're wobbling on your wheel, you still have a chance to hang on for as long as possible and slow down as much as possible before hopping off. The less speed you have when you bail, the less injuries you walk away with. If you skid in the middle of a turn, you go down hard, and if you manage to transition into a roll, you can take some stress off your joints.

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On 5/11/2019 at 7:06 AM, tenofnine said:

Safest posture for riding and best way to fall?

According to Douglas Adams (rip) the best way to fall is actually to fly! Its a lot like falling, but you simply have to miss the ground....

"The Guide states, the main thing that flying requires is the ability to throw yourself at the ground and miss. It says to throw yourself forward with all your weight and "the willingness not to mind that it's going to hurt", however it will surely hurt if you fail to miss the ground. The difficulty is in missing the ground, and doing so accidentally, as "deliberately intending to miss the ground" does not work. "

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5 hours ago, hyperair said:

My hands went out in front of me as I went down, and while I skidded on the tarmac for a bit at the beginning, I had the presence of mind to transition into a roll instead of continuing to skid on my increasingly raw skin. 

So you’re telling me despite the shock of falling to the ground you suddenly had laser like focus and slowed time enough to be able to rationally analyze your situation, your surroundings, and determine rolling was the best course of action and then execute said rolling? All within a one-two second fall? 

Thats what you think happened. In reality, you rolled because of momentum.

Its irrelevant though because you didn’t actually roll correctly. The roll is meant to be intitated immediately upon impact; you said you skidded for a bit before rolling. Which is pointless. The damage was already done. You had skid marks everywhere and shredded gloves.

If you had anticipated the fall you would have rolled and saved your gloves. But you were caught by surprise. I never said you bailed. In my post, you only bail if you anticipate a crash.

The fact that you rolled “once” doesn’t mean you properly executed “the roll” at all; you just happened to roll for whatever reason. 

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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The funny thing is, rolling isn’t even preferred. So I don’t know where this love relationship came from in regards to EUC. 

I’m not sure why a parkour roll is repeatedly being advertised as an effective fall strategy for EUC’ing. 

Parkour dudes have zero protective gear on and they are actively thinking of their impending movements with no surprises. They roll to disperse impact from high drops. EUC riders (should) have plenty of gear that makes rolling obsolete. 

Skateboarders never roll; they slide on their palm, wrist or knee pads. If given the time to think, skidding to a stop on your plastic knee pads then wrist guards is the best option. Rolling is not. 

I didn’t have the luxury of skidding as 1) I had my knee pads under my pants. 2) they weren’t the plastic skate type but cheap foam. 3) I was on a rubber track so sliding was not possible on such a surface. 

To sum this all up and answer the OP’s question of the best way to fall (which means you’re going to bail as you can’t plan a fall that catches you by surprise)

The best way to bail and have to fall in the process(if you can’t run it off) is to have skate knee pads on and to go limp and aim for the knee pads to skid along on, just like skateboarders do.

Don’t put your arms out first or you will reach into a Superman pose and contact arms/hands first and possibly faceplant or strain a wrist. Once you skid on the knee pads THEN you put your arms out if necessary to halt the remaining momentum and catch yourself. You want to absorb the brunt of the impact with the knee pads not your wrist guards .

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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On 5/16/2019 at 4:14 PM, who_the said:

We may call it different things, but a number of us are adopting much more active, looser riding styles, especially for performance riding. @houseofjob has his "active hands," @Tishawn Fahie is, of course, Tishawn, and more and more of us ride constantly shifting and swaying, very active above the torso but also below and in the hips. Side-cocked hips while riding are definitely a thing now, especially in photos when if they catch you all up on one side. :)

miles-64.gif.3b82e9835492834f017be6ca14a62294.gif

The KungFu riding styles people come up with and brand functional because they like riding that way is really cute; but, IMHO it's mostly cosmetic.

Most people ride with their hands at their sides because that is the most natural standing posture. A relaxed, comfortable posture on your wheel is the safest position. 

Swaying side to side is not a functional riding improvement; it is a style preference, and again mostly cosmetic. I carve and sway when I ride because I enjoy it. All I gain from it is slightly enhanced personal pleasure.

My sons are excellent riders; anyone who has ridden with them will verify that statement. They don't carve or sway much when they ride because that is their preference. Swaying or carving would not add any functional benefit. It doesn't for me either; I just like it.  

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You can practice the Kung Fu style of riding, with rolling, by simply riding many times over grass fields, first the smooth soccer field and eventually the unimproved fields with tall grass that hides holes.

And then you will learn to be ever vigilant, with bent knees, ready to roll at any time when your wheel disappears from underneath you. 

Or do most of you stay with smooth pavement, with the occasional rider-killing bump thrown in?

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9 hours ago, Lutalo said:

The KungFu riding styles people come up with and brand functional because they like riding that way is really cute; but, IMHO it's mostly cosmetic.

Not a kung fu-style guy per se, but I definitely see your point. One of the beautiful things about EUC riding is that your body is largely free to do as it wishes. I will push back a little on "mostly cosmetic," I find that for high-performance riding, including off-road and high-speed, arm and hip placement (and movement) can definitely help shift momentum and sharpen responses for turning, accelerating, braking. I use kind of a "micro-carve" approach for performance acceleration and, especially, braking. In my opinion, the more aggressively you are riding, the more effect your body can have.

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16 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

So you’re telling me despite the shock of falling to the ground you suddenly had laser like focus and slowed time enough to be able to rationally analyze your situation, your surroundings, and determine rolling was the best course of action and then execute said rolling? All within a one-two second fall? 

The first time I fell at ~25km/h three years ago, I stumbled, fell with both arms under my body, kept my head up, and continued sliding to a stop. That slide felt like an eternity. You feel your skin burning, but you can't do anything about it until you've come to a full stop. You say that it's a one-two second fall, but you probably have closer to 10-20 seconds of sliding before you come to a complete stop. Each second you spend on that tarmac ablates off more of your skin (or gear if you're fully padded up).

You're right in doubting that I had time to have laser-like focus and slowed time enough to rationally analyze all of that. All of that is preparatory work. You do that before your crash, constantly while you're riding, not when your wheel has decided to give up on you. At the point where your wheel decides to go under, you should still have a vague idea of what's around you, and your hands should be free to come to your rescue. And rolling? If you don't have that macro in your head, you won't be able to even activate it during the crash. This is why I practised it and tried to make it instinctive.

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 Thats what you think happened. In reality, you rolled because of momentum.

Not really, I could have simply let myself continue sliding on my hands and elbows like the last time. Whereas this time I tried to angle my body in a way that would enter the roll, eventually, when the friction between the road and my hands had sufficiently torqued my body into a sideways roll.

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Its irrelevant though because you didn’t actually roll correctly. The roll is meant to be intitated immediately upon impact; you said you skidded for a bit before rolling. Which is pointless. The damage was already done. You had skid marks everywhere and shredded gloves.

You're right that I didn't actually roll correctly -- I couldn't activate the roll immediately upon impact. But it definitely wasn't pointless. The accident three years ago under similar conditions left me with abrasions at least twice as deep as this round's, on both hands and both elbows. They took about three weeks to fully seal up. This accident only abraded my right elbow, and it's already healed up after only 8 days. As for those shredded gloves? They're 10 dollars a pair. I'm not too hung up about them, but they do take 2 weeks to ship from China, so I'll start keeping spares around.

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If you had anticipated the fall you would have rolled and saved your gloves. But you were caught by surprise. I never said you bailed. In my post, you only bail if you anticipate a crash.

The fact that you rolled “once” doesn’t mean you properly executed “the roll” at all; you just happened to roll for whatever reason. 

I don't think I properly executed the roll, but I did manage to transition into a roll, and the results speak for themselves -- it's clearly better than nothing.

Edited by hyperair
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