Stability/Control Question

[winterwheel]

On 5/13/2019 at 5:15 PM, Matthew Patrick Barnson said:

Now that I'm reading the forum, I understand the justifications for buying a cheap electric unicycle on eBay. I'm going to push back on the idea that it's "just common sense", though.  When I knew nothing about this place a month and a half ago, I would not trust an eBay unicycle to not kill me. The fact major US distributors do not sell anything in the $200-$300 price range, and that leading typical wheels were in the $1400-$2200 range led me to believe such "cheap" wheels were untrustworthy.

I suspect this pricing strategy on the part of US distributors is not accidental.

One of our crew had an extremely inexpensive starter wheel; it faceplanted two of us.

[Darrell Wesh]

16 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

One of our crew had an extremely inexpensive starter wheel; it faceplanted two of us.

Yeah but I’m willing to bet it was user error and not a random cut off.

if you’re wearing the appropriate gear (full face helmet, guards) there should be no problems with a fall at such slow speeds. Coming in to this “sport” you knew there was a distinct possibility of falls throughout the learning process. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[pico]

6 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

A weak training wheel trains people to respect the machines limits (and the beep!)

And acquire technique and finesse.

[winterwheel]

10 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Yeah but I’m willing to bet it was user error and not a random cut off.

if you’re wearing the appropriate gear (full face helmet, guards) there should be no problems with a fall at such slow speeds. Coming in to this “sport” you knew there was a distinct possibility of falls throughout the learning process. 

You'd lose that bet.

[Darrell Wesh]

41 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

You'd lose that bet.

Explain this cut out then. Wheels don’t just turn off for no reason; and you claim not once but twice! 

From what I’ve seen on this forum and Facebook groups is people do a whole lot of blaming of the machine and not enough pointing the finger at themselves for improper operation. 

[pico]

As always, I am sure I am not going to win a popularity contest with that post. 

Seriously, there is no reason for someone to faceplant on an MSX and or a 18XL and blame it on the machine. Occurrence of machine failures are rare nowadays if we operate the machine within its WORKING PARAMETERS. (Speed, temperature and weight) 

Someone was even asking why an MSX did not come from the manufacturer with a tethering cord because he was told to start on such a machine! 

A starter wheel is what it is: a STARTER wheel to learn the BASICS. I'd rather have an ankle mangled by a V5F rather than an MSX.

Protect yourself, learn and upgrade end of the story. Stop blaming the machine.

Even a measly NB1 can hold those two guys. That is >200lbs! And don't go and tell me the NB1 is UNSTABLE and UNRELIABLE.

I bought one used for $300, I weight 170lbs and it NEVER cut out on me even at 5 deg C and I do crazy things. I got SURE that the battery is in PERFECT condition.

[winterwheel]

3 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Explain this cut out then. Wheels don’t just turn off for no reason; and you claim not once but twice! 

From what I’ve seen on this forum and Facebook groups is people do a whole lot of blaming of the machine and not enough pointing the finger at themselves for improper operation. 

Step on, gently ride 10 feet, cutout without warning.

[meepmeepmayer]

15 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Please. I take that as an insult. 

Hey, I wrote "even you"

15 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Like I said, I’ve never had a cutout as a 180-190lb man, even jumping up high curbs and dropping down high curbs. It’s cheap because the range is garbage and the speed is garbage. If someone gets a user error cutout on a smaller wheel that’s within their weight requirement then it’s because they didn’t understand how to ride it in the first place. The trainer wheels are specifically designed to be slow enough so no major harm comes from a fall. 

You’re basically covering up someone’s inability to ride safely within the machines limits by telling them to go ride a machine with much higher limits. And instead of getting a cutout at 8mph your advice likely creates riders who cutout at 30-40mph. A weak training wheel trains people to respect the machines limits (and the beep!)

Some people do not understand the natural limitations of self-balancing tech (just look at all the Onewheel riders trying to best their top speeds and then complaining about "nosedives"). It makes no sense to assume all riders are knowledgable enough when it's not the case.

Maybe the step'n'roll is better than some other generics, but there have been enough reports of cheap wheels suddenly stopping working at some small bump or with no obvious reason. There's a reason no dealer sells them and why they go for a V5F or 14D as their cheapest, lowest model. Most people here argue against them for a reason.

[pico]

Sounds like a battery problem to me...

Here is my current 132wh ride! I use it for practice every day! 

Don't pity me , I have a spanking new V10F, and a used V5F and a NB1

 

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by pico

[pico]

After getting the V10F, I quickly realized that one can QUICKLY forget the finesse those under powered units require and end up on our back when Downgrading.

This is like saying a 777 is more stable than a Cessna 152 so let us skip learning the 152.

My 2 cents.

Not popular to say that...

[NylahTay]

I'm going to echo @winterwheel's statement that "starter" wheels are untrustworthy and so incredibly difficult to ride. I learned on the Ninebot Segway S1. It's a 14in wheel that you can find on eBay for about $300USD. That was my main source of transportation for 2 years. I would have some type of accident at least 1-2 times a month, sometimes at least once a week.  This is any kind of reason that forces you off the wheel, including those that don't cause any injury.  I just learned to expect it. It was just a difficult wheel to ride. 

HOWEVER,
Since I've got my KingSong 18XL, I've already about 500 miles on in the first 2 weeks and have had ZERO accidents or any reason that has forced me off the wheel during a normal ride.
The only times I've slid was when I was testing how well it handled mud on the road and purposefully pushed the limits. (Watch out for mud )

[pico]

3 hours ago, NylahTay said:

I'm going to echo @winterwheel's statement that "starter" wheels are untrustworthy and so incredibly difficult to ride. I learned on the Ninebot Segway S1. It's a 14in wheel that you can find on eBay for about $300USD. That was my main source of transportation for 2 years. I would have some type of accident at least 1-2 times a month, sometimes at least once a week.  This is any kind of reason that forces you off the wheel, including those that don't cause any injury.  I just learned to expect it. It was just a difficult wheel to ride. 

HOWEVER,
Since I've got my KingSong 18XL, I've already about 500 miles on in the first 2 weeks and have had ZERO accidents or any reason that has forced me off the wheel during a normal ride.
The only times I've slid was when I was testing how well it handled mud on the road and purposefully pushed the limits. (Watch out for mud )

Old or bad battery, I personally responded that you had a battery with abbysmal internal resistance. And that it was a miracle that you never hurt yourself badly.

A big wheel with a bad battery is even more dangerous!

I saw a guy ( I will not name him) that had a crash with a Monster 22. One of the batteries fell out of the wheel on the cement from about a foot high.

This battery should be QUARANTINED.

He is going to put it back happily in the Wheel and store it in his appartment, or sell the wheel on Ebay and risk a house fire...

Your battery is the most single important item in your wheel. It is also the most likely to cause problems and to be ABUSED.

Guess why the manuf offers a very limited warranty on the battery...

Counter point. One BIG advantage of the big wheels is that there is redundancy of the packs.

Still, your speed limits (hear faceplant limits) depends on the good status of ALL the packs.

 

Personally I would rather LEARN about battery limitations and other limitations(hear: wobbles, tire pressure, calibration, modes etc...) on a V5F or a NB1 than on an MSX at high speed...

In my other hobby, (model airplanes and helis) we call that "pay your dues" or earn your Wings... 

 

Edited May 15, 2019 by pico
c

[Darrell Wesh]

7 hours ago, NylahTay said:

I'm going to echo @winterwheel's statement that "starter" wheels are untrustworthy and so incredibly difficult to ride. I learned on the Ninebot Segway S1. It's a 14in wheel that you can find on eBay for about $300USD. That was my main source of transportation for 2 years. I would have some type of accident at least 1-2 times a month, sometimes at least once a week.  This is any kind of reason that forces you off the wheel, including those that don't cause any injury.  I just learned to expect it. It was just a difficult wheel to ride. 

HOWEVER,
Since I've got my KingSong 18XL, I've already about 500 miles on in the first 2 weeks and have had ZERO accidents or any reason that has forced me off the wheel during a normal ride.
The only times I've slid was when I was testing how well it handled mud on the road and purposefully pushed the limits. (Watch out for mud )

Have you ever stopped to wonder why you haven’t fallen off the KS18XL ? 

 The control you developed on the twitchy 14” has made the transition to that bigger wheel quite easy. 

You see and hear all the time about people falling off the wide Z10 as their starter wheel, so don’t tell me it’s because the tires bigger/more stable

Edited May 16, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[Michael Tucker]

My first wheel was a Luffy. It was a mind-blowing experience just being on an EUC for the first time. I started on a soft redtop high school running track with painted lines. It was so twitchy I needed the painted lines just to keep my eyes on the ground and to tell if I was veering left or right. If you just think left on that little 10" wheel it goes left! A few weeks later I bought a Ninebot One E+. The 16" wheel and larger shell allowed for a more relaxed learning experience and something for my leg to press against and not just rely on foot and ankle. I then bought a Ninebot One S2, which was definitely more twitchy than the E+ and the smaller and smoother shell was slippery and required more skill. I then bought a KS18L and in my opinion the absolute king of controllability. Yes the added weight takes a little more getting used to, but compared to my previous wheels, it moves effortlessly and feels in complete control all the time. I believe the weight distribution, shell size and shape, and firmware responsiveness all work together for an amazing experience. Obviously the fit and feel of a wheel is personal.

I think each wheel offered something to my ever-improving skills, and now having owned many wheels after a year of riding, from the Luffy to a Monster, I would recommend the Ninebot One E+ to any new learner because of its reputation, build quality, controllability, speed limit, low pedals for easy run-off and price. Just my opinion!

P.S. No one owns just one wheel!

[pico]

6 minutes ago, Michael Tucker said:

If you just think left on that little 10" wheel it goes left!

 Luffy! been contemplating for a while getting one of those! And put Lipo's in it! And make it sing!  Laughed really hard when Speedyfeet (super competent rider)  tried on the spot 180 and ended up on his butt. Priceless!

Yes, one wheel is not enough...

Edited May 15, 2019 by pico
c

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

My first wheel was a Luffy. 

 

1 hour ago, pico said:

 Luffy! been contemplating for a while getting one of those! 

Luffy is a hoot to ride and perfect to carry in a  backpack as a spare if your wheel craps out and your wife refuses to pick you up. 

[Darrell Wesh]

8 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Hey, I wrote "even you"

Some people do not understand the natural limitations of self-balancing tech (just look at all the Onewheel riders trying to best their top speeds and then complaining about "nosedives"). It makes no sense to assume all riders are knowledgable enough when it's not the case.

Maybe the step'n'roll is better than some other generics, but there have been enough reports of cheap wheels suddenly stopping working at some small bump or with no obvious reason. There's a reason no dealer sells them and why they go for a V5F or 14D as their cheapest, lowest model. Most people here argue against them for a reason.

Nobody is arguing that those wheels shouldn’t be used as learner wheels. They’re arguing that they shouldn’t be used as real commutter wheels. 

If someone does not understand something you don’t patch up their ignorance by giving them something infallible that won’t expose their ignorance ( in context, you don’t give them something with so much power they are unlikely to get a cut out). 

By your example, let’s just give all the onewheel guys a onewheel that goes 40mph! That will drop the nosedive complaints due to fewer daring to go that fast, but increasing the life altering risks of those that do and subsequently nosedive at those speeds. 

Education is the answer, more power and battery is a band-aid. And smaller starter wheels you learn on that tilt you back and beep at you as you learn provides some of that education through experience. Better to have your first and only cutout from pushing the limits on a learner wheel at 9mph then on an 18 incher at 31+mph

 

[mrelwood]

I don’t know why @Darrell Wesh is so sure that any rider is going to exceed the limits of one’s first vehicle, no matter if it’s a noname or an MSX.

Obviously people have strong opposing opinions on wether to get a learner wheel. No other choice than to listen to your heart in the matter.

One point indeed is that any used wheel may have a badly treated or damaged battery that may even be dangerous to store in your house.

Depending on what kind of learner one is, the tumbly-wheel part of the learning perioid usually lasts from 30 minutes to 2 hours. Being a manual unicycle rider I’m sure it’d be even less than that.

IIRC my first wheel didn’t tumble much at all. I would just step off with one foot if I lost balance. I have never even touched a manual unicycle, but I had a long history of mountain biking.

So, either purchase a risky wheel for the 0-30 minutes of tumbles, or pad up your precious and spare the $fewhundreds. I’m pretty sure my opinion is clear.

Regarding the models, the underpowered V8 that was mentioned is about a 3 year old product. Buy a wheel that was released within the last year and you are sure to get sufficient power. As mentioned, current great 18” populars are KS 18XL (2.5”) and Gotway MSX (3”), and the soon coming 16X (3”) and Nikola (3”) are all but confirmed 16” hits.

The Z10 is an oddball, and the too wide 4” tire to can be said to have played a part in several reported crashes. Several battery and electronics related issues have also surfaced lately.

[Mahyar Farsad]

how about mcm5 as a first wheel ?  

i just bought one and i'm waiting to be shipped , did i do a mistake ?

[pico]

Don't worry, any wheel is a good choice!

The only bad choice is no wheel!

We are just talking for talking (politely if possible), as always on this forum!

Whatever you do, persevere. This is what counts!

[meepmeepmayer]

4 hours ago, pico said:

Don't worry, any wheel is a good choice!

The only bad choice is no wheel!

Truer words have never been spoken. 

The MCM5 is not the easiest to learn on, but it's not that hard compared to other wheels either. And you will get good skills riding such a wheel as your first one. And it is a fantastic wheel!

[Mahyar Farsad]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Truer words have never been spoken. 

The MCM5 is not the easiest to learn on, but it's not that hard compared to other wheels either. And you will get good skills riding such a wheel as your first one. And it is a fantastic wheel!

i'm so excited , i currently have an electric skateboard and  don't get me wrong i love it  but here in rome is not good for commuting ( streets with bad condition ) so i bought the mcm5 for 9 miles round trip to work and return, and i was stock between tesla and mcm5 , so i went with mcm5 , i know the  tesla would have been the more reasonable choice for me but there is something special about mcm5 ( at least it looks very special in reviews that i have seen )