Stability/Control Question

[andrew900nyc]

 

Hi Everyone – Having never ridden an electric unicycle, I am wondering what the community’s thoughts are on the question below.

In order to put this question in context, please have a look at 10:37 – 10:52 of Hsiang’s excellent video, which I’ve linked. 

 

 

 

My question is:

Would stability and/or control be enhanced if the top outer left and outer right sections of the case protruded somewhat so that the rider’s legs would remain snug against the case most of the time when riding? As you can see in Hsiang’s video, the top of the wheel rocks backs and forth laterally a bit, which I assume isn’t a big deal. If the top of the case protruded a bit on both sides, thus diminishing or eliminating the lateral movement of the top of the wheel, would that (1) improve control and/or stability, (2) diminish control and/or stability, or (3) have negligible effect either way? I am very interested to hear your thoughts.

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, andrew900nyc said:

My question is:

Would stability and/or control be enhanced if the top outer left and outer right sections of the case protruded somewhat so that the rider’s legs would remain snug against the case most of the time when riding? As you can see in Hsiang’s video, the top of the wheel rocks backs and forth laterally a bit, which I assume isn’t a big deal. If the top of the case protruded a bit on both sides, thus diminishing or eliminating the lateral movement of the top of the wheel, would that (1) improve control and/or stability, (2) diminish control and/or stability, or (3) have negligible effect either way? I am very interested to hear your thoughts.

Many riders squeeze their wheel between the legs especially for accelerating uphill (?or breaking downhill?). For this such a modificaiton should help in any case. Imho also for sportive driving such "lateral" fixation should improve "performance" and control over the EUC - for "normal" driving it should not be needed. I personally let the wheel very loose and wiggle around as it wants 

Just the strain on the shins could get a bit much - the wheels are very strong. Don't know if one can really take such thight "coupling" continousely?

[meepmeepmayer]

The wheel wobbling between your legs is not (automatically) bad. In fact, that's how it is supposed to be.

The wobbling doesn't come from nothing. It's either the rider or the ground inducing the wobble with some temporary imbalance (the wide tire of the Z10 may be extra susceptible). If the rider were to grab the wheel with the legs, that wobble would simply move into the rider, that movement/energy doesn't go away on its own. By keeping the wheel loose, the rider dampens the wobble away, which is how it's supposed to be. Keeps you stable and kills any potential problem in its infancy.

Think of it like an earthquake dampener for a building. The building is not directly on the foundation, but on a spongy spring type system with small contact areas to the foundation. In an earthquake, the springs absorb the sideways movement of the ground/foundation and the building is kept mostly still by its own inertia (and some active balancing via hydraulic jacks, just like a EUC rider actively balances sideways all the time), not giving too much of a **** about what happens below it. That is the plan. Here, your wheel is the foundation and your legs are the dampening system. The looser they are, the better (in principle, too loose is bad of course).

Under usual riding conditions, the only part of you touching the wheel is your soles on the pedals. You can grab the wheel with your legs in situations where you want stronger control (mostly to control the forwards/backwards tilt and acceleration, not any sideways wobbling; or simply to feel more in control and safer), and some pads may help with that. But in principle, you ride and control the wheel only via the pedals, stand as relaxed as possible (grabbing a wheel is counterproductive for that), and you don't have to touch the wheel otherwise.

The dreaded speed wobbles are what happens when a rider (for whatever reason) can NOT dampen away a given, suddenly appearing sideways wobble. So kind of the opposite of the harmless and quickly disappearing wobble as shown in the video.

Edited May 11, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[LanghamP]

I believe there is an upper hard speed limit for EUCs, beyond which no rider technique can overcome.

The reason lies in the self righting nature of wheels, whereby small instabilities can be corrected by the wheel wobbling slightly but larger ones require such huge corrections that the wheel ends up tumbling. It is for this reason that motorcycle forks are 45-50 mm in diameter, linked to hydraulic steering dampeners; this setup shapes instabilities as they arise.

[Planemo]

Plenty of bikes can do 180mph quite comfortably without steering dampers, the Honda Blackbird being just one.

But yes I agree, there is probably an upper limit for euc's. To combat it either the wheels need to get bigger in diameter (and heavier) to have a better chance of shrugging off road imperfections as they arise or they need to have the back end of a motobike hanging off them. Which kinda defeats the point

[Darrell Wesh]

13 hours ago, andrew900nyc said:

 

Hi Everyone – Having never ridden an electric unicycle, I am wondering what the community’s thoughts are on the question below.

In order to put this question in context, please have a look at 10:37 – 10:52 of Hsiang’s excellent video, which I’ve linked. 

 

 

 

My question is:

Would stability and/or control be enhanced if the top outer left and outer right sections of the case protruded somewhat so that the rider’s legs would remain snug against the case most of the time when riding? As you can see in Hsiang’s video, the top of the wheel rocks backs and forth laterally a bit, which I assume isn’t a big deal. If the top of the case protruded a bit on both sides, thus diminishing or eliminating the lateral movement of the top of the wheel, would that (1) improve control and/or stability, (2) diminish control and/or stability, or (3) have negligible effect either way? I am very interested to hear your thoughts.

When you get an EUC you can do your own test and find out that the harder you squeeze an EUC the more it wants to wobble. 

[LanghamP]

40 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Plenty of bikes can do 180mph quite comfortably without steering dampers, the Honda Blackbird being just one.

You mean like this very comfortable looking wobble from a cbr xx? This one?!

 

[andrew900nyc]

Thanks for all the feedback. The dampening effect makes sense, as does the dreaded speed wobble. Any ideas how the technology may evolve to maintain the former and minimize the latter?

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, LanghamP said:

You mean like this very comfortable looking wobble from a cbr xx? This one?!

 

Well done. I am sure you can find a tankslapper video for every bike ever made. And I am sure you will.

[meepmeepmayer]

57 minutes ago, andrew900nyc said:

The dampening effect makes sense, as does the dreaded speed wobble. Any ideas how the technology may evolve to maintain the former and minimize the latter?

Pedal suspension or just softer pedals (as in a cushioning layer as part of the pedal) might help the rider absorb bumps.

When you have speed wobbles, it helps to brake or ride a stronger curve to get out of the wobbling. One could think of a wheel detecting a heavy wobble at speed and doing a tiltback, maybe that helps one get out of a situation.

Better ergonomics will help for both, the more relaxed you can stand on the wheel while having good control, the easier it is to deal with any imbalances and prevent/deal with speed wobbles.

But in the end, as long as the wobble doesn't get too strong, it's not a problem, just a normal part of riding and sideways balancing (the part of the balancing that the wheel doesn't do for you). There is no magic that allows riding perfectly smoothly in a rigid state despite having uneven ground. Some oscillatory behavior is to be expected. It's the alternative to non-oscillatory behavior (aka falling over)

Get a wheel already, all this theory is not overly constructive, riding is very intuitive (and fun)

Edited May 11, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[andrew900nyc]

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Get a wheel already, all this theory is not overly constructive, riding is very intuitive (and fun)

 

While I am extremely eager to get a wheel, I just started learning about these amazing machines and I want to make sure that I don't:

1) Make the mistake of purchasing a wheel that isn't right for me. I just read a thread from someone who apparently was sold the wrong size/power wheel and because of that he had four faceplants while riding at a good speed and now he doesn't even want to ride (or own) his wheel anymore and he has the stress of having a dispute with the retailer.

2) I want to make sure I'm not the poor fool who goes out and buys what he thinks is the latest, greatest wheel on the market, only to find out that a much better model is about to be released. I'd rather get a top-end wheel that I can grow into and keep for a longer period of time than to have to upgrade in the very near future. When I bought my first street bike (a long time ago), nearly everyone advised me to get the CBR600RR instead of the CBR900RR. I went with the 900RR and was very happy that I did. I gave it the respect it deserved as I grew into it and had a bike I loved for a good stretch of time.

In any case, I have a curious mind whether I own and ride a EUC or not, so I'm afraid I'm likely to annoy you either way with my theoretical questions. 

 

[andrew900nyc]

20 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Pedal suspension or just softer pedals (as in a cushioning layer as part of the pedal) might help the rider absorb bumps.

When you have speed wobbles, it helps to brake or ride a stronger curve to get out of the wobbling. One could think of a wheel detecting a heavy wobble at speed and doing a tiltback, maybe that helps one get out of a situation.

Better ergonomics will help for both, the more relaxed you can stand on the wheel while having good control, the easier it is to deal with any imbalances and prevent/deal with speed wobbles.

But in the end, as long as the wobble doesn't get too strong, it's not a problem, just a normal part of riding and sideways balancing (the part of the balancing that the wheel doesn't do for you). There is no magic that allows riding perfectly smoothly in a rigid state despite having uneven ground. Some oscillatory behavior is to be expected. It's the alternative to non-oscillatory behavior (aka falling over)

 

By the way, I very much appreciate your response. I may be an oddball, but I find your feedback and that of other members to be very interesting and helpful. And who knows, maybe one of the manufacturers will see some ideas on this forum and try testing/implementing one or more of them at some point! 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Even wheel choice is very intuition-based, because of ergonomy and subconsciously making the right choices for you. If you have to decide between seemingly equally good models, the "The one that's on my mind when I close my eyes!" or "But I secretly want this one!" or "But I just like how it looks, no matter the X!" wheel is the right choice.

Other than that, unfortunately the more you pay, the disproportionally more you get. So going top-end right away makes a lot of sense, more than in other markets.

You seem to be one of the "I want to learn on my forever wheel" people, as opposed to "I'll get a learner and then a real wheel when I can ride". One more argument for the top-end.

There are some really nice 16 inchers coming up (Gotway Nikola and KingSong KS16X). MSX and 18XL are the standard awesome 18 inchers. Other than that, not so much in the close future pipeline as far as is publicly known.

32 minutes ago, andrew900nyc said:

By the way, I very much appreciate your response. I may be an oddball, but I find your feedback and that of other members to be very interesting and helpful.

Thanks

32 minutes ago, andrew900nyc said:

And who knows, maybe one of the manufacturers will see some ideas on this forum and try testing/implementing one or more of them at some point! 

Let's just say... history does not support this hope But stuff can indirectly permeate to the manufacturers once in while due to some involved dealers - mostly @Jason McNeil of ewheels fame. This is how we got larger pedals and some other small improvements.

[andrew900nyc]

On 5/11/2019 at 6:06 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Even wheel choice is very intuition-based, because of ergonomy and subconsciously making the right choices for you. If you have to decide between seemingly equally good models, the "The one that's on my mind when I close my eyes!" or "But I secretly want this one!" or "But I just like how it looks, no matter the X!" wheel is the right choice.

Other than that, unfortunately the more you pay, the disproportionally more you get. So going top-end right away makes a lot of sense, more than in other markets.

 

Well the wheel that was really grabbing my attention and seemed to be calling my name is the Ninebot Z10, but after reading about the latest bad news regarding the company, I no longer feel like it is the best choice for me. From what I've researched so far, I haven't seen any other wheel that has as fat a tire as the Z10, which is quite a shame because that fat tire is one of the features I like the most. It's good to know that going top-end right away makes a lot of sense in this market. Thanks again for the valuable feedback!

 

On 5/11/2019 at 6:06 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

On 5/11/2019 at 5:23 PM, andrew900nyc said:

And who knows, maybe one of the manufacturers will see some ideas on this forum and try testing/implementing one or more of them at some point! 

Let's just say... history does not support this hope But stuff can indirectly permeate to the manufacturers once in while due to some involved dealers - mostly @Jason McNeil of ewheels fame. This is how we got larger pedals and some other small improvements.

 

Well indirect permeation is better than no permeation and I have noticed that some manufacturers have made appearances on this forum, so perhaps there's a chance that members of the community's voices are being heard (even if not frequently acted upon just yet).

 

[seage]

You're out in New York. Im not sure if its possible, but maybe see if you can meet some of the riders there? Theres a HUGE PEV community out there. I know theres a big group on Facebook and the app Telegram. Try talking to the locals, see if you can meet em and feel the wheels. Obviously you wont be able to ride yet, but just getting to see them in person, feel that weight. See the builds and build quality, it may be beneficial to some degree. This doesnt answer your initial question tho, sorry. 

When it comes down to it, if you're going with something on the highend right off the batt, you wont have to worry about overpowering your wheel unless you're 300lbs+, at the top end of the speed before cutout and still pushing. There are a few charts out there, i know theres some on e-wheels site to show you specs and so on.

It is a hefty investment so good on you for doing your research. But yeah..all wheels are going to wobble, you learn how to deal with it. Go with the wheel that calls to you and learn. If worst comes, you can sell (Should be easier out in NYC) for a bit of a loss and upgrade like what I did. I bought and rode the kingsong ks-16s for about 600km. Loved that lil thing, but I knew pretty early on i wanted more power and something more comfortable for distances. Plus, as much as it took my weight (im on the heavier side) it felt a bit TOO squirelly for me, so i upgraded to the 18XL and probably wont be upgrading for a long time, unless i get the marty bug XD. 

[Darrell Wesh]

I strongly oppose buying your dream wheel and learning on it. 

If you can pay $2000 you can pay $200 for a cheap eBay step n roll starter wheel to bang up and learn on first.

You’ll quickly be thankful when you see how brutal the learning process is on the wheel. 

The 14” will be harder to learn on which will make going up to the 18” a lot easier and giving you skills you wouldn’t otherwise have since you started on a “twitchy” 2.1 inch wide tire. 

The cheap eBay wheel will give you an understanding of tiltback and overleaning so you learn to respect the wheels you get in the future. 

It’s just common sense: you really think a parent would let their kids learn how to drive in the new Mercedes? 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[andrew900nyc]

Thanks for all the excellent advice, seage. I very much appreciate it! Good to know there are lots of PEV enthusiasts in my neck of the woods (or more accurately, concrete jungle). I can see how wanting to have different size/power wheels for different usages could be very appealing. Oh no, what have I gotten myself into here... I sure hope I'm not opening up a Pandora's Box!

Thanks for your input, Darrell Wesh. As a lifelong (traditional) unicyclist, I have been thinking that I'll learn the basics and achieve at least decent competency with the wheel within a few days. Perhaps I am dramatically underestimating my learning curve. Are there any members of this forum who were skilled traditional unicyclists prior to learning how to ride a EUC? If so, how long did it take you to acquire basic riding skills? By basic riding skills,  I mean being able to get on the wheel, ride, and turn at slow and moderate speeds with consistency.

In any case, I didn't know the low end wheels were so inexpensive. At these prices, your idea does appeal to me for the purpose of learning and then having a wheel to scoot around on (mostly for indoor use once I'm proficient) and possibly also to use to learn some tricks.

So can anyone recommend a decent low-end wheel for me to consider? Also which EUC has a wheel that's closest in thickness to the Z10?

 

Edited May 13, 2019 by andrew900nyc
Edited for more accurate description.

[txgsync]

Now that I'm reading the forum, I understand the justifications for buying a cheap electric unicycle on eBay. I'm going to push back on the idea that it's "just common sense", though.  When I knew nothing about this place a month and a half ago, I would not trust an eBay unicycle to not kill me. The fact major US distributors do not sell anything in the $200-$300 price range, and that leading typical wheels were in the $1400-$2200 range led me to believe such "cheap" wheels were untrustworthy.

I suspect this pricing strategy on the part of US distributors is not accidental.

[meepmeepmayer]

Cheap wheels are untrustworthy. Nothing worse than a noname small battery wheel that someone expects to work like the advertised brand ones. That can only lead to accidents, disappointment, and a false negative perception of EUCs.

The reason dealers sell no cheaper wheels is 100% because there are no cheaper wheels that they could sell with good conscience.

A 200-300 learner wheel is either a used brand wheel (which is ok) or one of these deathtrap generics that people need to be very aware are only for absolute slow speed learning and you need to be alert any small curb or bump can drop you. I still wouldn't recommend such one as a learner when you can ride the safe, powerful wheel you'll be riding anyways. Waste of money in my book, even $200 is some amount of money.

Even <$1000 brand wheels are arguably borderline too weak (due to the smaller batteries) for heavier riders expecting to ride the advertised speeds.

The fact that the typical wheels are in the $1400-$2200 range is anything but a conspiracy

[Darrell Wesh]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Cheap wheels are untrustworthy. Nothing worse than a noname small battery wheel that someone expects to work like the advertised brand ones. That can only lead to accidents, disappointment, and a false negative perception of EUCs.

The reason dealers sell no cheaper wheels is 100% because there are no cheaper wheels that they could sell with good conscience.

A 200-300 learner wheel is either a used brand wheel (which is ok) or one of these deathtrap generics that people need to be very aware are only for absolute slow speed learning and you need to be alert any small curb or bump can drop you. I still wouldn't recommend such one as a learner when you can ride the safe, powerful wheel you'll be riding anyways. Waste of money in my book, even $200 is some amount of money.

Even <$1000 brand wheels are arguably borderline too weak (due to the smaller batteries) for heavier riders expecting to ride the advertised speeds.

The fact that the typical wheels are in the $1400-$2200 range is anything but a conspiracy

Untrustworthy for learning? Huh? 

I will counter and say There’s nothing worse than getting your brand new $2000 wheel and feeling overwhelmed and hopeless because how hard it is to learn. Or to watch it get dropped repeatedly while learning even with padding. You know how many people have returned/sold their expensive wheels because the learning curve was too hard? 

The top speed of a step n roll for an average westerner male is going to limit you at 8mph. You can’t do anything but learning basic maneuvers on one (although I was jumping up curbs on it). The smaller tire width will build desirable skills such as control and balance which will transfer well to an 18” and make it much easier.

If you can’t handle a 6-8mph get off then you IMO should rethink an EUC. I’ve never had a random cut out on the step n roll; its been beaten up, opened up to change tire, dropped, abused etc. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Darrell Wesh

[meepmeepmayer]

Where exactly does "learning" end and riding start? After how many km, at what speed?

It's not harder to learn on an 18 incher. I'd say it's arguably easier because of the higher shell allowing for better foot leverage for the triangle.

Nobody can run out even a 5mph actual cut-out (no, not even you) from a curb drop or some power spike requirement. Why risk this and risk people getting put off of EUCs by recommending (borderline) unsafe vehicles?

$200 is not $0.

Obviously there's two kinds of people - those who want some learner before they get their real wheel, and those that see no point in a learner and want to learn on what they ride. It's a question if instinct and intuition and there's no true or false answer. Personally, I like to err on the side of caution

Maybe my opinion of the step'n'roll specifically is too low.

[Meelosh123]

32 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

You know how many people have returned/sold their expensive wheels because the learning curve was too hard? 

No, do you?   If you go through the trouble of researching this hobby and putting down over a grand on a wheel, chances are you'll stick with it.  Yes, it's an awful feeling to get so enthused about something new for months and months, put down the money, get it, and then realize it's difficult...but you get over it.  I did fine buying a powerful wheel as a first-timer.  The only time I wish I had a cheap wheel (sub $300) is when I want someone to try it out, but I'm hesitant to trust them with my good wheel.  If I bought a weaker wheel for 600-800, I'd imagine I'd rather have that money to put towards another strong wheel.

[Planemo]

I think that an individuals choice of first wheel is more down to personal circumstances than we could possibly raise here. For one circumstance, I think that I would have outgrown my V5F pretty quickly but I don't regret buying it for one minute because it's now my daughters and she rides everywhere with me.

For someone with no family, or no friends likely to want to try/borrow it, an expensive 1st wheel might be the better option.

I know one thing, the V5F made me a better rider for when I got on a bigger wheel

I'm not sure that 'its better to buy a cheaper wheel first that you can smash up whilst learning' is a totally valid point, given that any wheel can be protected enough to prevent damage.

It really is horses for courses I think. Not sure we could ever reach a unanimous decision on this one because there's simply too many variables depending on the buyers circumstance.

[andrew900nyc]

 

Thanks for all the additional feedback. I'm fairly confident that I'll get the hang of riding these things fairly quickly, so I'm not too concerned about the learning curve. If I'm mistaken, so be it. I don't give up easily. More importantly, I thought it would be good to have a lower end wheel that I could let my friends try because I know there will be several requests. I  also thought it might be nice to have a wheel that I could utilize just for slow-speed indoor use and for trying to learn some tricks. But if the low end wheels are really just ok for learning on, but wouldn't be dependable for the other purposes I mentioned, then it doesn't seem worth it to me to go that route.  

 

[Darrell Wesh]

6 hours ago, Meelosh123 said:

No, do you?   If you go through the trouble of researching this hobby and putting down over a grand on a wheel, chances are you'll stick with it.  Yes, it's an awful feeling to get so enthused about something new for months and months, put down the money, get it, and then realize it's difficult...but you get over it.  I did fine buying a powerful wheel as a first-timer.  The only time I wish I had a cheap wheel (sub $300) is when I want someone to try it out, but I'm hesitant to trust them with my good wheel.  If I bought a weaker wheel for 600-800, I'd imagine I'd rather have that money to put towards another strong wheel.

$600-800 is triple to quadruple a $200 eBay wheel. And I’m sorry but you’ve got it backwards; putting down large amounts of money doesn’t equate to sticking with anything in life. You’d be MORE likely to want your money back the more money you put down. If I put down large amounts of money and it’s not to my satisfaction I’d want my $$ back.

Let me give you an example: if I bought $10 wireless headphones on Amazon (say because I only had wired headphones) and they were just ok but I didn’t really like them, id probably keep them around just for the novelty with occasional use or for other people to try/use. Now if I had bought wireless headphones for $200 or 20x that price (a $2000 wheel vs a $200 wheel) and I thought they were just okay but didn’t really like them, I’d return them! Or sell them as like new. 

That’s why a minimal $200 (compared to $2000) is small enough that if it’s not what you thought it was , or to your satisfaction, you’d still keep it around and hopefully stick with it. 

With a cheap starter wheel you also now have the power to teach other people without worry, and you’re BOUND to meet people who want to learn. Unless you shun society and are anti social, but then an electric unicycle (which screams “look at me!”) would be your worst vehicle to pick in that case. Not to mention owning a cheap wheel you don’t care about means you have a spare one to learn tricks on long after the padding has been taken off the expensive wheel. 

5 hours ago, Planemo said:

I know one thing, the V5F made me a better rider for when I got on a bigger wheel

 

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

It's not harder to learn on an 18 incher. I'd say it's arguably easier because of the higher shell allowing for better foot leverage for the triangle

I definetly never said it was harder to learn on an 18. I said quite the opposite; the smaller 14” tires’ width is harder to learn on and transfers beneficial motor skills like control towards learning on an 18”. You’re going to be in for some trouble if you go from an 18” to a 14” on the other hand. 

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Nobody can run out even a 5mph actual cut-out (no, not even you) from a curb drop or some power spike requirement. Why risk this and risk people getting put off of EUCs by recommending (borderline) unsafe vehicles

Please. I take that as an insult. 

Like I said, I’ve never had a cutout as a 180-190lb man, even jumping up high curbs and dropping down high curbs. It’s cheap because the range is garbage and the speed is garbage. If someone gets a user error cutout on a smaller wheel that’s within their weight requirement then it’s because they didn’t understand how to ride it in the first place. The trainer wheels are specifically designed to be slow enough so no major harm comes from a fall. 

You’re basically covering up someone’s inability to ride safely within the machines limits by telling them to go ride a machine with much higher limits. And instead of getting a cutout at 8mph your advice likely creates riders who cutout at 30-40mph. A weak training wheel trains people to respect the machines limits (and the beep!)

Edited May 15, 2019 by Darrell Wesh