eddiemoy Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Peak Oil has been predicted for decades. I'm no longer holding my breath. Certainly a thousand years from now our economy won't be based on fossil fuels, and it would be cool to see. But I'm afraid in my lifetime it's going to remain a fossil fuel world. The older you get the more you realize how long real change takes to occur. You really think that every car manufacturer will be full electric in 5-years? Maybe in the high-end luxury market, but at my local Chevy dealer? We recently bought a new Lexus. No electric car offered the features that we have at a competitive price. And although no doubt fun, I think most people really don't care how fast they can get to 60mph. Maybe in the $100,000 Germane luxury market, Tesla is eating their lunch, but that's above my pay grade It’s about survival. The future is electric, the car companies that don’t move now will go belly up. Tesla is selling more than any luxury brand period. Not only in the above 100k, even the entry levels, 3 series BMW, A4, CL. The Japanese brands are not as popular as the German brands. Just look up the sales numbers. Tesla is like the first iPhone. Now every phone is a smart phone. The companies that didn’t jump on board went belly up, Nokia. Do you even remember Nokia??? They were the biggest. Apple came in and just wanted 10M sales of a billion a year phone market. That is .1%. All the truck drivers are scared shitless because it is like the jobs at McDonald as a cashier. Got replaced by a Kiosk. Truck drivers will be emplacement by autonomous trucks. Or truck caravans. One guy manning the first truck, the other trucks follow. Until regulation catches up. I had my doubts on full self drive, but now the doubt is gone after I saw what Tesla developed. They developed a chip that is better than Nvidia. Tesla, a chip maker!! Never would have Thought that was possible and I was blow away by the nvidia chip. The Tesla chip is 21X faster with less power usage. Built for neural net. ‘The Auto Pilot I’m using in the model 3 is almost flawless. At least 10X better than V1 in my ModelX. Haven’t tried to kill me once. ‘End of next year, Tesla will have a Uber app. You can make money with your car by adding your car to the Tesla network. I understand this isn’t for everyone and the idea of renting out your car when not in use is foreign. Will see how this plays out. The next few years will be interesting. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/14/teslas-15-luxury-car-share-in-usa-tesla-energy-vision-tesla-fiat-tango-cleantechnica-top-20/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: All I can say is you're living in a dream world. Fossil fuels have much high energy densities that solar or wind. You've made a bunch a sweeping statements that are meaningless. What does "Solar beats all other forms of energy" mean? It's feel good verbiage. Minor power banks for nights? When I turn on my tablesaw the minor power banks will be drained in about 5-minutes. But I suppose I'll just have to alter my lifestyle so we can feel good about going solar. And when it's raining? It's been cloudy in Southern California the last couple of days. But no problems, just spend a couple of trillion dollars building battery backups. If solar and wind could be a drop-in replacement at the same cost, count me in. But it hasn't. Solar has just become a new religion for many people. How many KW is your table saw? A single Tesla powerwall is 14kwh. If your table saw is 2kw, you would be running it for 7 hours, not 5 minutes. That’s lots of sawing. LOL most people spend 10-15K for whole house backup generator that runs off of natural gas... you can buy 2 powerwalls and do 14 hours of continuous sawing. Would love to see your average usage at night time. This is for backup purpose. For off the grid. Would probably require more power walls. Can string up to 10 power walls for a total of 140kwh. That’s almost 3 days of continuously sawing. LOL 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 12 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: All I can say is you're living in a dream world. Fossil fuels have much high energy densities that solar or wind. You've made a bunch a sweeping statements that are meaningless. What does "Solar beats all other forms of energy" mean? It's feel good verbiage. Minor power banks for nights? When I turn on my tablesaw the minor power banks will be drained in about 5-minutes. But I suppose I'll just have to alter my lifestyle so we can feel good about going solar. And when it's raining? It's been cloudy in Southern California the last couple of days. But no problems, just spend a couple of trillion dollars building battery backups. If solar and wind could be a drop-in replacement at the same cost, count me in. But it hasn't. Solar has just become a new religion for many people. Fossil fuels are dirty, in more ways than one. How many wars has the US fought in the middle East and elsewhere to secure their supply of oil? It's notable that none of the Axis powers in WWI and WWII were oil rich, while the Allies were. How many people are killed or made miserable by tailpipe emissions each year? How much area do you need to power the world, assuming you have the worst efficiencies? Just under 400 by 400 km. Drop in replacement requires solar to be far cheaper than your monthly electric and gas bill. I see that never happening, so while the cost of solar is far cheaper over the long run, in the short run solar will lose. Battery and solar panel costs will continue to plummet while getting more effecient, because those are technologies and not fuels. You buy the panel once instead of fuel again and again. One is a tech that obviates the need for the other. If you were to hook up your table saw to your hypothetical Tesla, then how many fourth-graders could you saw through before you ran out of battery power? Sometimes, your paycheck depends on being wilfully ignorant. If you profess to be tech agnostic yet love your pick up truck (or some IC related tech), then you're not really being tech agnostic, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 26 minutes ago, LanghamP said: Fossil fuels are dirty, in more ways than one. How many wars has the US fought in the middle East and elsewhere to secure their supply of oil? It's notable that none of the Axis powers in WWI and WWII were oil rich, while the Allies were. How many people are killed or made miserable by tailpipe emissions each year? How much area do you need to power the world, assuming you have the worst efficiencies? Just under 400 by 400 km. Drop in replacement requires solar to be far cheaper than your monthly electric and gas bill. I see that never happening, so while the cost of solar is far cheaper over the long run, in the short run solar will lose. Battery and solar panel costs will continue to plummet while getting more effecient, because those are technologies and not fuels. You buy the panel once instead of fuel again and again. One is a tech that obviates the need for the other. If you were to hook up your table saw to your hypothetical Tesla, then how many fourth-graders could you saw through before you ran out of battery power? Sometimes, your paycheck depends on being wilfully ignorant. If you profess to be tech agnostic yet love your pick up truck (or some IC related tech), then you're not really being tech agnostic, are you? Everything we have in the world that allows us to live better than cavemen is due to fossil fuels. Cheap energy is what has allowed us to conquer nature to the degree that we have. Without fossil fuels a lot more people would be dead than those killed by tailpipe emissions. I'm extremely grateful that fossil fuels exist and that we can extract it from the Earth. I love my pickup. Whether it's powered by fossil fuels or electrons I am agnostic. Whatever gets the job done cheapest and with no comprises will be what I use. Right now that's fossil fuels. I can tell that the religion is strong in you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 1 hour ago, eddiemoy said: How many KW is your table saw? A single Tesla powerwall is 14kwh. If your table saw is 2kw, you would be running it for 7 hours, not 5 minutes. That’s lots of sawing. LOL most people spend 10-15K for whole house backup generator that runs off of natural gas... you can buy 2 powerwalls and do 14 hours of continuous sawing. Would love to see your average usage at night time. This is for backup purpose. For off the grid. Would probably require more power walls. Can string up to 10 power walls for a total of 140kwh. That’s almost 3 days of continuously sawing. LOL To be fair, I was responding to the comment "minor power bank". A Telsa powerwall doesn't sound like a minor power bank and indeed would probably provide all the energy that I would need as long as I'm not without the Sun for more than a day. At ~$7k installed per unit these are very expensive relative to how cheap my grid backup is. I haven't run the numbers, but my gut tells me that if I want to live off of pure solar, even when the Sun doesn't shine for a few days, I'm going to pay a pretty penny for the privilege. Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to stick it to the California utilities, but even at their ridiculously high rates, it's still cheaper than solar and Powerwalls. In the past I've run the numbers for solar on my house (using the grid for the non-Sun hours). I would barely save money, assuming that I live in the house for at least 20-years, but would live with the eyesore and possible maintenance issues. Since it's not my religion, it's not a compelling solution for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 1 hour ago, eddiemoy said: It’s about survival. The future is electric, the car companies that don’t move now will go belly up. Tesla is selling more than any luxury brand period. Not only in the above 100k, even the entry levels, 3 series BMW, A4, CL. The Japanese brands are not as popular as the German brands. Just look up the sales numbers. Tesla is like the first iPhone. Now every phone is a smart phone. The companies that didn’t jump on board went belly up, Nokia. Do you even remember Nokia??? They were the biggest. Apple came in and just wanted 10M sales of a billion a year phone market. That is .1%. All the truck drivers are scared shitless because it is like the jobs at McDonald as a cashier. Got replaced by a Kiosk. Truck drivers will be emplacement by autonomous trucks. Or truck caravans. One guy manning the first truck, the other trucks follow. Until regulation catches up. I had my doubts on full self drive, but now the doubt is gone after I saw what Tesla developed. They developed a chip that is better than Nvidia. Tesla, a chip maker!! Never would have Thought that was possible and I was blow away by the nvidia chip. The Tesla chip is 21X faster with less power usage. Built for neural net. ‘The Auto Pilot I’m using in the model 3 is almost flawless. At least 10X better than V1 in my ModelX. Haven’t tried to kill me once. ‘End of next year, Tesla will have a Uber app. You can make money with your car by adding your car to the Tesla network. I understand this isn’t for everyone and the idea of renting out your car when not in use is foreign. Will see how this plays out. The next few years will be interesting. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/04/14/teslas-15-luxury-car-share-in-usa-tesla-energy-vision-tesla-fiat-tango-cleantechnica-top-20/ All sounds good. Personally I hope self-driving comes to fruition. I won't be trusting my life to it anytime soon, but I can't wait for it to be a totally reliable commodity. I really have no vested interest in Tesla or the traditional transportation companies. I'm watching from the sidelines. But I wouldn't invest my retirement income in Tesla right now. Yeah, long-haul trucking is not a career path that I'd recommend. That has to be the first market that will succumb to the next generation of self-driving vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 27 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Everything we have in the world that allows us to live better than cavemen is due to fossil fuels. Cheap energy is what has allowed us to conquer nature to the degree that we have. Without fossil fuels a lot more people would be dead than those killed by tailpipe emissions. I'm extremely grateful that fossil fuels exist and that we can extract it from the Earth. I love my pickup. Whether it's powered by fossil fuels or electrons I am agnostic. Whatever gets the job done cheapest and with no comprises will be what I use. Right now that's fossil fuels. I can tell that the religion is strong in you. I don't think I'm the religious one here. There's no doubt fossil fuels have made our life better. Up to now. Fossil fuels are ludicrous when they are now the major drivers of man-made climate change, cancers, asthma, diabetes, and a host of other diseases. Given the toxicity of fossil fuels, why wouldn't you change to an alternative energy source that is cheaper in the long run while have far fewer deleterious side effects. History, and archeology, is full of examples of civilizations who've destroyed their environment with nothing more than stone and metal tools. Do you expect us with the power of fossil fuels and the sun not to do far worse on a global scale? There's solutions and there's outcomes; short-term hedonism maps to an outcome. A logical man would say, yeah you got me; it's the dogmatic religious man who sticks to his guns despite the evidence to the contrary. Fossil fuel usage isn't just tailpipe emissions; we are now seeing the effects of increasing our plastic usage. Even our formerly pristine national parks have heavy air pollution. I think massive pollution is our Great Filter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 25 minutes ago, LanghamP said: I don't think I'm the religious one here. There's no doubt fossil fuels have made our life better. Up to now. Fossil fuels are ludicrous when they are now the major drivers of man-made climate change, cancers, asthma, diabetes, and a host of other diseases. Given the toxicity of fossil fuels, why wouldn't you change to an alternative energy source that is cheaper in the long run while have far fewer deleterious side effects. History, and archeology, is full of examples of civilizations who've destroyed their environment with nothing more than stone and metal tools. Do you expect us with the power of fossil fuels and the sun not to do far worse on a global scale? There's solutions and there's outcomes; short-term hedonism maps to an outcome. A logical man would say, yeah you got me; it's the dogmatic religious man who sticks to his guns despite the evidence to the contrary. Fossil fuel usage isn't just tailpipe emissions; we are now seeing the effects of increasing our plastic usage. Even our formerly pristine national parks have heavy air pollution. I think massive pollution is our Great Filter. No time in history have more people been lifted out of poverty than now. Lifespans continue to get longer. We are living now better than any humans preceding us. Life is pretty damn good out the window that I'm looking. Sounds like it's a hell-hole outside of your window. I'd consider moving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 (edited) I'm certainly not against solar, in my opinion it should be used a lot more in places where there's sunshine all year around. As for providing energy on a global scale, it's a no-go, not as the main form of producing energy, need to have backup. Here's the sun's radiation energy over a year where I live: On the left is average kilowatthours per square meter over the entire month from January (1) through December (12). On the right is the annual average amount of solar radiation power in different cities in Finland, I'm in the middle (1127kWh / m^2 / year). These are before the losses due to panel efficiency. Most of the energy is needed between November (11) and end of March (3), as that's when its coldest. Incidentally, not much sunshine during that time either. On winter days, the consumption is usually something like 60-100+kWh (when it's really cold, electric heating). I was offered a 3kW system installed for 12000€ (which is a rip-off price, really) a number of years back, with no energy storage. That's about 3-4 month median income (before taxes) in Finland. Probably could get such for half that price, still not really cheap IMO. The inverter needs to be replaced after around 15 years (but it's only 500€), the panels have warranty for at least 80% of nominal power output up to 25 years. After that, who knows... Edited May 11, 2019 by esaj 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr8ps Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Marty Backe said: No time in history have more people been lifted out of poverty than now. Lifespans continue to get longer. We are living now better than any humans preceding us. Life is pretty damn good out the window that I'm looking. Sounds like it's a hell-hole outside of your window. I'd consider moving. He's talking climate change and you're talking lifespan and poverty. What gives? Screw posterity, lets dig/pump it up - cheap oil for the win. No need to worry about the long-term health of the earth. The Rapture is bound to happen sooner or later so who cares what happens? When all the good Christians are whisked away to Heaven, then there will be far less humans on earth which will reduce the overall carbon footprint. Edited May 11, 2019 by gr8ps 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 6 hours ago, Marty Backe said: No time in history have more people been lifted out of poverty than now. Lifespans continue to get longer. We are living now better than any humans preceding us. Life is pretty damn good out the window that I'm looking. Sounds like it's a hell-hole outside of your window. I'd consider moving. I'm simply suggesting you should read more. Suppose we take all ten or so billion people, moved them out to the suburbs and made it so each family had two large vehicles. Is this wise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 8 hours ago, Marty Backe said: To be fair, I was responding to the comment "minor power bank". A Telsa powerwall doesn't sound like a minor power bank and indeed would probably provide all the energy that I would need as long as I'm not without the Sun for more than a day. At ~$7k installed per unit these are very expensive relative to how cheap my grid backup is. I haven't run the numbers, but my gut tells me that if I want to live off of pure solar, even when the Sun doesn't shine for a few days, I'm going to pay a pretty penny for the privilege. Believe me, I'd like nothing more than to stick it to the California utilities, but even at their ridiculously high rates, it's still cheaper than solar and Powerwalls. In the past I've run the numbers for solar on my house (using the grid for the non-Sun hours). I would barely save money, assuming that I live in the house for at least 20-years, but would live with the eyesore and possible maintenance issues. Since it's not my religion, it's not a compelling solution for me. Marty, rain doesn’t mean no electricity. Just means less. It isn’t pitch black outside when it rains. This is a common misconception. I have a 17kw system and over the life of the system I would save $34k in electricity. I pay $0.08 per kWh, the power company charges $0.18 per kWh. I make over 17,000 kWh per year. I’ve had it since 2013. Not off grid, but supplement. Some people don’t like the look of the panels, some do. Just like with the look of the GW wheels. LOL. But Tesla has come out with some pretty sweet looking shingles that are indestructible. Makes sense for anyone replacing their roof. It looks just like any other roof. ‘This has to be the way to go. If we all added solar to our roof top, then we would use less fossils fuels. It’s all about sustainability. BTW, zero maintenance. I use to think I had to wash them. The rain does that. I’ve not done anything to them for the last 6 years. They are supposed to last 30+ years. I leased it for 20. Tesla comes to fix anything wrong with it since they own it. At the end. I can buy for $7k and use it for the rest of the life of the cells. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 7 hours ago, LanghamP said: I don't think I'm the religious one here. There's no doubt fossil fuels have made our life better. Up to now. Fossil fuels are ludicrous when they are now the major drivers of man-made climate change, cancers, asthma, diabetes, and a host of other diseases. Given the toxicity of fossil fuels, why wouldn't you change to an alternative energy source that is cheaper in the long run while have far fewer deleterious side effects. History, and archeology, is full of examples of civilizations who've destroyed their environment with nothing more than stone and metal tools. Do you expect us with the power of fossil fuels and the sun not to do far worse on a global scale? There's solutions and there's outcomes; short-term hedonism maps to an outcome. A logical man would say, yeah you got me; it's the dogmatic religious man who sticks to his guns despite the evidence to the contrary. Fossil fuel usage isn't just tailpipe emissions; we are now seeing the effects of increasing our plastic usage. Even our formerly pristine national parks have heavy air pollution. I think massive pollution is our Great Filter. It is actually cow farts that is the major affect on climate change. Our addiction to eating beef. So funny when I learned that it isn’t our burning of gasoline or coal. It is cow farts, methane. It is 30x better at trapping heat than CO2. COW FARTS! LMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 6 hours ago, esaj said: I'm certainly not against solar, in my opinion it should be used a lot more in places where there's sunshine all year around. As for providing energy on a global scale, it's a no-go, not as the main form of producing energy, need to have backup. Here's the sun's radiation energy over a year where I live: On the left is average kilowatthours per square meter over the entire month from January (1) through December (12). On the right is the annual average amount of solar radiation power in different cities in Finland, I'm in the middle (1127kWh / m^2 / year). These are before the losses due to panel efficiency. Most of the energy is needed between November (11) and end of March (3), as that's when its coldest. Incidentally, not much sunshine during that time either. On winter days, the consumption is usually something like 60-100+kWh (when it's really cold, electric heating). I was offered a 3kW system installed for 12000€ (which is a rip-off price, really) a number of years back, with no energy storage. That's about 3-4 month median income (before taxes) in Finland. Probably could get such for half that price, still not really cheap IMO. The inverter needs to be replaced after around 15 years (but it's only 500€), the panels have warranty for at least 80% of nominal power output up to 25 years. After that, who knows... I agree that solar can’t be the only solution. I think solar is more of a stop gap. We have to start somewhere. We need to start reducing our use of the finite resources. ‘For me solar made economic sense. It was $0.10 cheaper per kWh. I understand that it may not be the case in your part of the world and you may have something better and cheaper to jump on toor maybe nothing is cheaper. We are all not rich and cant just do this without some economic incentive to do so. I wouldn’t worry about the efficiency of the solar panels so much. When designing a system you have already taken that into consideration and also the peak generation of power during ,months and days. I’m not asking for us to go off grid now, but it is clear to me and hope it is clear to most is that we cannot continue to use the finite resources. we must transition to sustainable power usage. Could be a combo of solar, wind, wave, geothermal, biogas, etc... 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 32 minutes ago, eddiemoy said: It is actually cow farts that is the major affect on climate change. Our addiction to eating beef. So funny when I learned that it isn’t our burning of gasoline or coal. It is cow farts, methane. It is 30x better at trapping heat than CO2. COW FARTS! LMAO This had me puzzled but it is indeed true with caveats. https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/overview-greenhouse-gases Methane is only 10% of green house gases (by mass?), but with 25 times the effect of CO2 although with "much less" the life. I don't think beef is much a problem, because the reduction of beef is easy and straightforward. --Get rid of corn subsidies. --Limit number of cows. This seems trivial to do, it's just doing less of what we already do. In contrast, getting rid of our suburban way of life while convincing old farts (hehe) to reduce their God-given right to "big footprint" their life seems impossible. Nor should they; it just seems easier to spend now and stick the bill to future generations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 1 minute ago, LanghamP said: This had me puzzled but it is indeed true with caveats. https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/overview-greenhouse-gases Methane is only 10% of green house gases (by mass?), but with 25 times the effect of CO2 although with "much less" the life. I don't think beef is much a problem, because the reduction of beef is easy and straightforward. --Get rid of corn subsidies. --Limit number of cows. This seems trivial to do, it's just doing less of what we already do. In contrast, getting rid of our suburban way of life while convincing old farts (hehe) to reduce their God-given right to "big footprint" their life seems impossible. Nor should they; it just seems easier to spend now and stick the bill to future generations. Hard to convince people to eat less beef. This is America... land of the burger and steak. I’m sure the cow farmers would band together if you try to limit their cows. Imagine a shortage of beef??? ‘I’m intrigued by this new all veggie burger called the impossible burger. I’ve yet to try it. Supposed to taste just like beef! This might help. As for suburban life, another difficult task. Easier to convince them to go electric. Just make all the gas cars illegal. I can also imagine in the future it would be illegal to drive. Cars need to be autonomous. Installing solar rooftop would also help with the carbon foot print. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 35 minutes ago, eddiemoy said: intrigued by this new all veggie burger called the impossible burger Yeah, I just went on a factory tour of the impossible burger. Deliciously delicious Joking aside, why not? I mean, why the hell not? Your privilege (collectively) to eat meat is an existential threat. Don't do it! The sacrifice is seriously minor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 2 hours ago, eddiemoy said: Marty, rain doesn’t mean no electricity. Just means less. It isn’t pitch black outside when it rains. This is a common misconception. I have a 17kw system and over the life of the system I would save $34k in electricity. I pay $0.08 per kWh, the power company charges $0.18 per kWh. I make over 17,000 kWh per year. I’ve had it since 2013. Not off grid, but supplement. Some people don’t like the look of the panels, some do. Just like with the look of the GW wheels. LOL. But Tesla has come out with some pretty sweet looking shingles that are indestructible. Makes sense for anyone replacing their roof. It looks just like any other roof. ‘This has to be the way to go. If we all added solar to our roof top, then we would use less fossils fuels. It’s all about sustainability. BTW, zero maintenance. I use to think I had to wash them. The rain does that. I’ve not done anything to them for the last 6 years. They are supposed to last 30+ years. I leased it for 20. Tesla comes to fix anything wrong with it since they own it. At the end. I can buy for $7k and use it for the rest of the life of the cells. You have some very favorable economics ($34k savings). When I had a evaluation done I would only save something like $50 a month and since then the utilities are paying much less for any power you pump into the grid. This is in California. During the summer, I can be paying >$700 per month in electricity, so a tiny savings for installation disruption and ugly (to me) looks just isn't worth it. If the economics were such that most of my daytime electricity was self-generated, I would consider it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 23 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: When I had a evaluation done I would only save something like $50 a month and since then the utilities are paying much less for any power you pump into the grid. This is in California. During the summer, I can be paying >$700 per month in electricity, so a tiny savings for installation disruption and ugly (to me) looks just isn't worth it. This is actually an excellent argument to not get vaccinations, because the great up-front cost of getting the vaccinations is much higher than simply doing nothing, especially if the chances of getting sick is quite low per year. It's the same with solar, in that the great up front costs obviates the small chance of getting sick in any one year (due to tailpipe/stackpipe emissions). While pollution is a great killer given enough time, on any one day it's not likely to affect you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, LanghamP said: This is actually an excellent argument to not get vaccinations, because the great up-front cost of getting the vaccinations is much higher than simply doing nothing, especially if the chances of getting sick is quite low per year. It's the same with solar, in that the great up front costs obviates the small chance of getting sick in any one year (due to tailpipe/stackpipe emissions). While pollution is a great killer given enough time, on any one day it's not likely to affect you. Show me one death certificate that says, "Died from air pollution". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 57 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Show me one death certificate that says, "Died from air pollution". Perhaps more than one death? Perhaps more than 800,000 deaths? https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-03/esoc-apc030819.php Perhaps we could look near places where engines are outputting lots of emissions, such as highways? https://www.lung.org/our-initiatives/healthy-air/outdoor/air-pollution/highways.html January 2010, the Health Effects Institute published a major review of the evidence put together by a panel of expert scientists. The panel looked at over 700 studies from around the world, examining the health effects of traffic pollution. They concluded that traffic pollution causes asthma attacks in children, and may cause a wide range of other effects including: the onset of childhood asthma, impaired lung function, premature death and death from cardiovascular diseases and cardiovascular morbidity. The area most affected, they concluded, was roughly the band within 0.2 to 0.3 miles (300 to 500 meters) of the highway. More studies by CDC. You are welcome to be religious in your adherence to your denial that air pollution causes deaths. You should tell everyone you meet that air pollution doesn't kill people. <Snicker>. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted May 11, 2019 Author Share Posted May 11, 2019 On 5/10/2019 at 4:09 PM, eddiemoy said: Our wheels don't have sophisticated active battery management and thermal runaway protection that Tesla has built into every car. If you only knew the steps that Tesla has taken to prevent their cars from going up in smoke. You are 10X more likely to crash and burn in a gasoline car(ICE) than BEV. You crash in a ICE, can be instant explosion. You crash in a Tesla, even if it starts a chain reaction, you have lots of time to get out. It's more like fire crackers and it is vented away from the cabin. I've owned three Tesla's now over the last 6 years. What should be banned is gasoline cars. And it will be eventually. Of course I know that Tesla electronics is much more sophisticated. Also when it comes to battery cells it's quite the same... It makes no difference between Tesla and KS... It can take fire, it's rare but it happens. Also knowing how many cells Tesla battery has comparing to KS I guess statistically you are more in danger with Tesla ? Check videos on youtube and you will be surprise how quickly Tesla can take fire and burn. Of course it's extremely rare, but once Lithium is burning, it's very hard to stop it and the reaction is quick. Gasoline cars it's another talk but yes I also dream about electric everywhere. Unfortunately until there is a braking new battery technology, it not gone happens.. simply because lithium is pretty rare... :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiemoy Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 22 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said: Of course I know that Tesla electronics is much more sophisticated. Also when it comes to battery cells it's quite the same... It makes no difference between Tesla and KS... It can take fire, it's rare but it happens. Also knowing how many cells Tesla battery has comparing to KS I guess statistically you are more in danger with Tesla ? Check videos on youtube and you will be surprise how quickly Tesla can take fire and burn. Of course it's extremely rare, but once Lithium is burning, it's very hard to stop it and the reaction is quick. Gasoline cars it's another talk but yes I also dream about electric everywhere. Unfortunately until there is a braking new battery technology, it not gone happens.. simply because lithium is pretty rare... :-( With the active temperature management in the car a fire isn't going to happen unless there is a horrible accident that affects the battery housing. You cant really say there are more cells in a car so it is more likely to catch on fire. The car has a sophisticated battery management system with liquid cooling, our wheels, zilch. I know about all the fires and if you read the first two fires that happen with Tesla was when a car ran over a trailer hitch. The car started smoking and the driver pulled over got out safely. This isn't going to happen in a gasoline car. The tank catches fire, boom, you are dead. On the battery, there is a port for venting the flames away from the cabin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LanghamP Posted May 11, 2019 Share Posted May 11, 2019 25 minutes ago, TomOnWheels said: KS I guess statistically you are more in danger with Tesla ? Compared to another car or to wheels? Tesla insurance rates are far higher than comparable cars, perhaps because they are more dangerous or perhaps because they cost more to fix, I don't know. I would guess Tesla's are more dangerous to others simply due to their speed, but much safer because of their non-existent tailpipe emissions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomOnWheels Posted May 12, 2019 Author Share Posted May 12, 2019 23 hours ago, eddiemoy said: With the active temperature management in the car a fire isn't going to happen unless there is a horrible accident that affects the battery housing. You cant really say there are more cells in a car so it is more likely to catch on fire. The car has a sophisticated battery management system with liquid cooling, our wheels, zilch. I know about all the fires and if you read the first two fires that happen with Tesla was when a car ran over a trailer hitch. The car started smoking and the driver pulled over got out safely. This isn't going to happen in a gasoline car. The tank catches fire, boom, you are dead. On the battery, there is a port for venting the flames away from the cabin. Just saying, I'm not trying to prove anything... My comment was just more humoristic, saying that if a gouv ban KS they should also do the same with Tesla as after all there is far more fire accident with Tesla cars than with KS. What do you think about that video https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/tesla-explosion-video-china-model-s-fire-shanghai-a8880786.html Is it fake ? Looks like Tesla is taking it seriously but after all I have no idea, I'm just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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