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KS-16S caused a fire...

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, gr8ps said:

The risk is not zero. There will be manufacturing defects, accumulated damage, water ingress, etc. I'd take an educated guess and say the risk of it spontaneously combusting is a lot higher than that of Teslas (the car) that have an active BMS with cooling/heating and generally go through less abuse than an EUC. Teslas have caught fire sitting on lots. Some people seem to be brushing it off or blaming the guy for having too many miles on the wheel. 

It's just an EUC, no sense in getting emotionally defensive about it. I do know if my wheel caught fire unattended, I'd most likely lose my house. I believe the odds are low enough that my two wheels are still in the garage and will remain there. I won't tempt fate by leaving my wheels plugged in though. Just 90% charge from here on out with an occasional top-off for balancing. 

So what would you say, 1%? If widespread adoption of EUCs happens and there are 100,000 riders in the US, we will not continue to be allowed to own them if 1,000 of those explode in peoples homes, garages, workplaces, therapy offices. I'm seriously having second thoughts about promoting other people to ride these things now.

Edited by winterwheel

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1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

Although probably an isolated incident this discussion has heightened my awareness to the risks of EUC fires.

I store my wheels inside my garage and have smoke alarms throughout my home but they will not extinguish the fire. This automatic fire extinguisher may offer some precious time to  contain the fire before it evolves into an out of control situation. https://haven-firesafety.com/product/haven/

47034607244_b492010667_b.jpg

I purchased this extinguisher as it currently on sale for $155. I now plan to build a wheel enclosure using fire rated gypsum board. https://www.homedepot.com/p/ToughRock-Fireguard-45-TE-1-2-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-Gypsum-Board-12268/206967518

This is by no means a fool proof method given the intense heat generated by burning LIPO batteries but it should provide me some time to further contain the fire it this ominous scenario ever occurs. 

Wow, great idea!

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53 minutes ago, tessa25 said:

Wow, great idea!

Thanks! I made a stupid decision informing my wife about this topic. :facepalm: So instead of living in the dog house I thought it best to build a semi-safe structure for my wheels.  

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Posted (edited)

I really want to know how much of an explosion/fire risk these things are, if I'm going to be pushing neighbors, friends, family to take up the sport. To that end, I have four brand new 14D wheels here, I'm wiling to donate one or two to the cause, I want to see just what it would take to make one of them explode/combust spontaneously.

My first idea is to immerse it completely.

Other suggestions would be appreciated.

Edited by winterwheel

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32 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

I really want to know how much of an explosion/fire risk these things are

If we exclude the V10 issue where the reason is well known (water ingress shorting the unprotected battery) and has been fixed, how many EUC fires have there been? More than 10? Less than 10? Maybe even 20? That includes cases like @YoshiSkySun's ACM where the battery was not only mechanically damaged, but also submerged in salt water at the same time - so not exactly spontaneous ignition. You do the math with however many EUCs there are:)

-

I understand such a fire is scary, but some people here completely overblow the danger. Somehow there's the expectation that any technology must be 100% safe against even unreasonable demands, otherwise it must be horrible crap. That's just unrealistic. You short or puncture batteries, some cells may catch on fire, booh what a surprise.

My point isn't to dismiss anyone's fears, but we don't even know yet what exactly happened and if the fire was unpredictable and spontaneous (what everyone is worried about) or just a case of "Well, that's just what happens when you do X, what exactly did you expect?!". No need to be suddenly afraid of your EUCs that have been working perfectly well til now just yet.

-

What we can learn from this is that EUC manufacturers need to include real battery casings now that protect both against moisture/submersion and strong and repeated mechanical impacts. No more foil wrapping or paper-thin bendable plastic casings.

And that it doesn't hurt to consider what would happen if your stored EUC catches on fire, no matter how unlikely that is. Maybe put it in a metal tub on a heat-isolated plate, so the heat/fire stays contained and you can fill the tub with water to cool the wheel down and end the fire. Add a smoke detector to alert you to any fire. Don't store it next to your fireworks collection. And, most importantly in my opinion, consider where any smoke would be going, that is probably be the biggest problem in case of fire. Otherwise, it may be just a nice contained campfire in the right storage situation.

33 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

My first idea is to immerse it completely.

That's just a waste of a nice wheel. When the water shorts the battery, well it gets hot. Then the electrolyte either ignites or doesn't (if the battery is still submerged and the heat gets transported away by the water). That's completely predictable.

So either there's no fire, it starts something while submerged, or at some later time water dribbles in and something happens or not. A lot of chance involved in how your particular battery is wrapped, how you moved the wheel after it was submerged, etc. Not sure how meaningful that experiment would be.

And I can't really come up with a good experiment. Maybe throw a wheel off a balcony onto asphalt/concrete repeatedly until something happens (or not) to see the effect of repeated heavy mechanical damage. Probably that's a waste of a nice wheel, too, I don't know, and we already know that puncturing a cell is bad.

I'm afraid for your poor 14Ds:ph34r:;)

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35 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

...Maybe throw a wheel off a balcony onto asphalt/concrete repeatedly until something happens (or not) to see the effect of repeated heavy mechanical damage. Probably that's a waste of a nice wheel, too, I don't know, and we already know that puncturing a cell is bad.

I'm afraid for your poor 14Ds:ph34r:;)

These stories get around and panic people, I'd like to make a video that puts a wheel into the worst possible circumstances and see how it behaves. With luck the video will be super-boring, nothing bad happens, we can post it and show these things are pretty tough. Alarmist propaganda is a big threat to widespread adoption of anything with such heavy duty batteries. If one 14D goes down so that many more thrive and go on to help save the planet, then it would be a very worthwhile sacrifice.

I'm already imagining the setup, time lapse camera, open field, lawn chair and a good book for the wait...the only thing that can save it now is if it's already been done. I'd love to know if anybody has tried to trigger spontaneous combustion/explosion on these things under controlled circumstances. 

 

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Can't argue with that:thumbup: Still sad about the poor 14D that has to die for this.

How exactly would you do it? It should be as meaningful as possible, minimizing any chance influences. Or you go by something that is as close as possible to a real world accident, that might make the most sense.

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27 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Can't argue with that:thumbup: Still sad about the poor 14D that has to die for this.

How exactly would you do it? It should be as meaningful as possible, minimizing any chance influences. Or you go by something that is as close as possible to a real world accident, that might make the most sense.

That's what I'd like to hear suggestions. I'd like to make it as meaningful as possible, so the effort (and wheel) aren't wasted.

I imagine running a few different tests, first with the wheel as it is out of the box, then if we don't get anything from that, "replace the tire" (forcing us to crack it and close it up again) and then run some more tests, then maybe do it again, introducing some obvious issue etc.

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3 hours ago, winterwheel said:

I really want to know how much of an explosion/fire risk these things are, if I'm going to be pushing neighbors, friends, family to take up the sport. To that end, I have four brand new 14D wheels here, I'm wiling to donate one or two to the cause, I want to see just what it would take to make one of them explode/combust spontaneously.

My first idea is to immerse it completely.

Other suggestions would be appreciated.

Not sure if you really want to go through with the experiement, but if you do it might be interesting to also use the occasion to test fire containment system. I am personally curious if a bag made out of the 2 hours fire wrap

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Fire-Barrier-Duct-Wrap-615-/?N=5002385+3293123923&rt=rud 

Would provide sufficient protection. The specification seems to indicate that it would be able to hold up to the temperature range. And if it does work a soft fireproof bag might be a more adaptable solution for those worried about potential fire but don't have a garage to keep the wheels in.

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2 hours ago, winterwheel said:

That's what I'd like to hear suggestions. I'd like to make it as meaningful as possible, so the effort (and wheel) aren't wasted.

I imagine running a few different tests, first with the wheel as it is out of the box, then if we don't get anything from that, "replace the tire" (forcing us to crack it and close it up again) and then run some more tests, then maybe do it again, introducing some obvious issue etc.

Before damaging the wheel in any way, you could start off with putting the wheel (turned off) in a box with some form of heating which you can control. Keep it at, say 60 degrees Celsius (140F), and if nothing happens, ramp it up to higher. The point is to simulate a wheel sitting in a hot car in summer:

"“When temperatures outside range from 80 degrees to 100 degrees, the temperature inside a car parked in direct sunlight can quickly climb to between 130 to 172.”" 172 Fahrenheit is about 78 degrees Celsius. I doubt anything happens, the cells aren't supposed to start thermal runaway until they heat up to something like 125 or 150C (about 250-300F).

 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, winterwheel said:

These stories get around and panic people, I'd like to make a video that puts a wheel into the worst possible circumstances and see how it behaves. With luck the video will be super-boring, nothing bad happens, we can post it and show these things are pretty tough. Alarmist propaganda is a big threat to widespread adoption of anything with such heavy duty batteries. If one 14D goes down so that many more thrive and go on to help save the planet, then it would be a very worthwhile sacrifice.

 

15 hours ago, winterwheel said:

That's what I'd like to hear suggestions. I'd like to make it as meaningful as possible, so the effort (and wheel) aren't wasted.

Making a meaningfull test is absolutely out of the scope for anyone of us...

Destroying/stressing one wheel can not proove that the 100.000 other wheels are safe, too - it's just a nice marketing gag, as afair one US reseller did with one wheel of each model he sold?

By this one can only show, that this specific wheel was safe or not...

And noone will misuse 100.000 wheels, to proove that they are safe.

Normally this proove is done by 

- firstly having prooven/certified components

- show by special test/"experience"/knowledge/state of the art techniqes that the own composition of these safe parts is safe again.

- assure and proove by quality control that all this design rules/"purchase restrictions" one set up are met without exception in the production.

- misuse/destroy/stress a small couple of each bigger batch to assertain, that nothing unforseen happened in despite of the above steps.

- "monitor the market"/examine defects occured in real life use and assure that no fault slipped through the above process.

Imho just with all this steps above one could validly proove some safety of 1 out of 100.000 or better...:(

Edited by Chriull

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On 5/10/2019 at 5:37 AM, Marty Backe said:

For my broken shoulder doctor and therapy sessions, I trolleyed my wheel into both offices and it rested against the wall with me as I saw the doctor. Isn't that what's particularly nice about our wheels? We can non-intrusively take them anywhere we go.

until they go BANG! I guess.  I tell you what, I'm not going to lay my wheel down and sit on it anymore!!! 'Nuff said. :cry2:

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On 5/10/2019 at 9:07 PM, NylahTay said:

So this leads me to ask, when you are finished with an EUC, and have determined that the wheel has finally gone too much to be safely ridden, how do you properly dispose of one? I mean the batteries are arguably the most dangerous part of the disposal.

Good question.  Do you ride it until it explodes, possibly killing someone, or dispose of it (correctly. recycling etc) possibly thousands of miles before its time?

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16 hours ago, esaj said:

Before damaging the wheel in any way, you could start off with putting the wheel (turned off) in a box with some form of heating which you can control. Keep it at, say 60 degrees Celsius (140F), and if nothing happens, ramp it up to higher. The point is to simulate a wheel sitting in a hot car in summer:

"“When temperatures outside range from 80 degrees to 100 degrees, the temperature inside a car parked in direct sunlight can quickly climb to between 130 to 172.”" 172 Fahrenheit is about 78 degrees Celsius. I doubt anything happens, the cells aren't supposed to start thermal runaway until they heat up to something like 125 or 150C (about 250-300F).

 

Awesome idea, I will try and work that out.

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3 hours ago, Chriull said:

 

Making a meaningfull test is absolutely out of the scope for anyone of us...

Destroying/stressing one wheel can not proove that the 100.000 other wheels are safe, too - it's just a nice marketing gag, as afair one US reseller did with one wheel of each model he sold?

By this one can only show, that this specific wheel was safe or not...

And noone will misuse 100.000 wheels, to proove that they are safe.

 

It is a standard practice to test one instance of a thing and extrapolate the results to other instances of that same thing. 

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17 hours ago, Hsiang said:

Not sure if you really want to go through with the experiement, but if you do it might be interesting to also use the occasion to test fire containment system. I am personally curious if a bag made out of the 2 hours fire wrap

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Fire-Barrier-Duct-Wrap-615-/?N=5002385+3293123923&rt=rud 

Would provide sufficient protection. The specification seems to indicate that it would be able to hold up to the temperature range. And if it does work a soft fireproof bag might be a more adaptable solution for those worried about potential fire but don't have a garage to keep the wheels in.

This is very helpful. I've been trying to work out how to store the stressed wheel between tests, and I've been wondering if there are peace-of-mind options such as fireproof containers.

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4 hours ago, Chriull said:

Making a meaningfull test is absolutely out of the scope for anyone of us...

Destroying/stressing one wheel can not proove that the 100.000 other wheels are safe, too - it's just a nice marketing gag, as afair one US reseller did with one wheel of each model he sold?

That's not a good way of looking at it. If we learn anything about how to make these wheels more safe to use and integrate into daily life this test would be meaningful. And how would you know if even a small piece of learned information wouldn't spark a bigger series of discoveries that could change our overall perspective?

Big things and big changes start with small ideas and small actions. I think that a test like this should be done to maximize the scope of testing so we can learn as much as possible, but just because the testing isn't done on thousands of wheels doesn't mean we can't learn anything from an extensive test on one.

And on another note, you do realize that literally everything mechanical and electrical has a chance of failing, right? Even after being tested 100,000 times, there is no way to secure a 100% safety on anything. Something could easily happen on the 100,001st test, or the 2nd, etc.

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33 minutes ago, winterwheel said:

This is very helpful. I've been trying to work out how to store the stressed wheel between tests, and I've been wondering if there are peace-of-mind options such as fireproof containers.

As far as testing this goes, I recommend waiting until we get more information on all of the variables (as much as possible) that led into this incident. You can test lots of different things but it would make the most sense to try and recreate a similar scenario to the one in this incident.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/11/2019 at 8:06 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

What we can learn from this is that EUC manufacturers need to include real battery casings now that protect both against moisture/submersion and strong and repeated mechanical impacts. No more foil wrapping or paper-thin bendable plastic casings

From what I've seen of crashes on eucs online and my own personal experience with my older ninebot I'm surprised that these batteries don't get damaged or busted in accidents more often.  When the wheel goes rolling away, crashes, does multiple tumbles back and forth, the flexing and rotational forces on the battery pack have got to be high.

I'm surprised that flexing doesn't break the spot welds/bms and cause shorts more often considering it's not in some rigid case to minimize flexing other than whatever rigidity is provided by the euc body.  I would think larger wheels like the monster/msx/18xl etc would be especially susceptible to this with their large and long battery packs

I would think a rigid casing with vibration/shock dampening material between the battery and it's casing with more shock absorbing material between the battery casing and the outer EUC casing would be more common place but I guess that would take up extra room.

It will be interesting to see how the 16X battery is encased when it comes out.

Edited by Heyzeus
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6 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

From what I've seen of crashes on eucs online and my own personal experience with my older ninebot I'm surprised that these batteries don't get damaged or busted in accidents more often.  When the wheel goes rolling away, crashes, does multiple tumbles back and forth, the flexing and rotational forces on the battery pack have got to be high.

I'm surprised that flexing doesn't break the spot welds/bms and cause shorts more often considering it's not in some rigid case to minimize flexing other than whatever rigidity is provided by the euc body.  I would think larger wheels like the monster/msx/18xl etc would be especially susceptible to this with their large and long battery packs

I would think a rigid casing with vibration/shock dampening material between the battery and it's casing with more shock absorbing material between the battery casing and the outer EUC casing would be more common place but I guess that would take up extra room.

It will be interesting to see how the 16X battery is encased when it comes out.

The KS18L had a proper casing, and was 1036wh. Since the KS16X is 1600wh, like the KS18XL, it'll probably have no casing. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

The KS18L had a proper casing, and was 1036wh. Since the KS16X is 1600wh, like the KS18XL, it'll probably have no casing. 

The 18XL was retrofitted for 1600Wh. They quite obviously didn't plan for this in the original design. (How they could be so dumb is an entirely different headscratcher).

The 16X is most likely designed for 1600Wh right away (they didn't announce a smaller battery version, and they can't possibly be this stupid AGAIN after the 18XL success). So I expect(ed) it to have a battery casing like the 18L.

Unless they didn't add one because the battery shape is so complicated or whatever (reusing the 18XL battery, the 16X battery can be seen to have a non-simple shape).

Oh dear, now I wouldn't put it past them to manage to do that:eff05cf9bc:

Edited by meepmeepmayer
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On 5/10/2019 at 8:17 AM, Stan C said:

what happen if the wheel rotate when charging??? thats gonna cause a fire?

In fact, i try riding KS16S and charging it with our power bank simultaneously. So in my opinion, whether the wheel rotate when charging doesn't matter, maybe it hit somethings during rotate. So better power off when charging with origin power adaptor.

Each battery unit in pack, was physically isolated by fire-retardant material. to ensure even one battery unit is burnt, the adjacent battery unit will not burnt quickly to become a blast. If water enter the battery pack, the fire-retardant material will be useless.

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What about one of these (or 2, or 3), mounted above the EUC's storage/charging location?

https://www.amazon.com/products/dp/B07BC653JC

I store/charge in my garage, free-standing as far from the wall and other objects as I can make it (but it's still within 2 feet of the shelves where the charger is sitting).  There are two sprinkler heads in the garage, so I can probably avoid a major structure fire (which is good, because I live in a condominium and there are 6 homes in my building), but the added knock-down effect of one or more of these automatic fire suppressors, plus a smoke detector (there isn't one in a garage), seems to make sense.  I'm thinking I'd use a metal tripod to suspend one or two of these Elide balls over the EUC.  Brilliant idea, or stupid waste of money?

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9 hours ago, svenomous said:

What about one of these (or 2, or 3), mounted above the EUC's storage/charging location?

https://www.amazon.com/products/dp/B07BC653JC

Brilliant idea, or stupid waste of money?

I haven't some much on how effective these actually are but if you have an extra $90 and want to be extra careful it can't hurt! Only way I could see if being a waste is if there is something cheaper/more effective out there. I keep my wheel in my apartment and I'm thinking about getting one just to be super safe.

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