Adventures on an 18" Learning Wheel - class of late April

[meepmeepmayer]

7 minutes ago, NylahTay said:

bloody ankles

I hope that were just minor pedal hits and nothing worse. No need to overdo it.

But going out of your comfort zone is both fun and very rewarding with the fast learning that happens.

Just be safe

[Smoother]

YES! Ride that sucker.  By the time I had my first wheel as long as you have had yours, I had ridden hundreds of km.  Could I turn properly? no.  Could I mount from one leg? no.  But I was having fun and my body was building up all sorts of muscle memory that made all that other stuff Soooo much easier. Go ride it, and stop worrying about all the minutia. You're too much in your head and not enough in your soul.  All the head stuff will come in time.

[erk1024]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Go for an actual ride

WHAAT?! That's crazy talk! You mean ride ... somewhere? Do I need to unlock that with the Kingsong app? (kidding) This is like leaving the nest. Well OK. I know some bike paths near the beach. Hopefully the pedestrians all have up-to-date health insurance.

[svenomous]

Don't forget @erk1024 had an injury to recover from.  I'm sure he's itching to go on longer rides.  Still, everyone should go at their own pace and do what feels right and comfortable.  No pressure!  I didn't "go somewhere" until I felt reasonably in control of the thing in parking lots, as in the ability to follow a path, make turns, avoid obstacles, control speed, and generally maneuver finely enough to not be a danger to e.g. pedestrians.

[Smoother]

On 5/22/2019 at 9:28 PM, svenomous said:

Don't forget @erk1024 had an injury to recover from.  I'm sure he's itching to go on longer rides.  Still, everyone should go at their own pace and do what feels right and comfortable.  No pressure!  I didn't "go somewhere" until I felt reasonably in control of the thing in parking lots, as in the ability to follow a path, make turns, avoid obstacles, control speed, and generally maneuver finely enough to not be a danger to e.g. pedestrians.

Riding round and round and round and round in an empty parking lot, IS going somewhere.  That was my exact major learning environment.  Once I knew I could stay on as long as I wanted to,  I ventured across the street to an actual straight path that wasn't round and round.  I still had to get off sometimes to turn around, but in between turns I was having a blast.  Then the "mostly aborted" turns turned into "occasionally aborted" turns, and finally into consistent turns. But all the while, I was riding, and having fun. I remember the 4 and 5 foot rides from the early part of training and it was no fun at all, being able to ride for some distance made all the difference, and reduced the fatigue from continually falling/getting off and getting on, so I could ride even longer.  It was a win-win.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Smoother

[erk1024]

Thanks for the encouragement @meepmeepmayer @Smoother @NylahTay and a wise note of caution from @svenomous. Appreciated. 

I went for a ride on wide straight bike paths near the beach that were bordered by grass. There were mild turns and uphill / downhill sections, so a good compromise between doing laps in the park, and getting out for a ride. I added another 6 KS miles to the tally. I was getting tired quickly, especially the soles of my feet. I think @svenomous and others have mentioned something similar. One thing I noticed about asphalt as opposed to cement, is you have to watch out for undulations. There were a few times where I hit "bumps" or it felt like I dropped a couple inches, without seeing anything ahead of time.

I was able to get the wheel up to 30kph without speed wobbles. I don't feel like I was doing anything differently--maybe just a little more relaxed on the wheel? Before my ride I measured the tire pressure at 51psi, so maybe lower pressure helped? At one point, the wheel went into tiltback, and slowed until I had to get off. That was strange because I didn't get any of the "please decelerate" warnings ahead of time. I had been accelerating slowly when it happened. Maybe I had the speed warnings too close to the warp speed? I upped the tiltback (warping) speed to 35kph, turned off the voice, and set the warnings to around 30kph.  I'll keep the speed warnings there for a while until I get more experience.

I only had one real mishap. When I mount, and still balancing on one leg, I try to get my right foot in a good spot so I move it a couple times which causes extra wobbles. One of the times I was doing that, the wheel got away from me and started rolling across the grass towards the road! I ran to intercept it, and just as I reached out to grab it, it veered back towards the bike path and headed for some dense tropical bushes on the other side. Basically I chased the wheel around in a circle before it finally fell over. I think the wheel is better at turns than I am when riding it!  

[erk1024]

2 hours ago, Smoother said:

I still had to get off sometimes to turn around, but in between turns I was having a blast.  Then the mostly aborted turns turned into occasionally aborted turns, and finally into consistent turns. But all the while, I was riding, and having fun.

This is a really good description of where I'm at with turns. I can turn, but they don't feel confident and the balance is often not quite right. The tilting data has been assimilated, and my balance is even more solid than before. But using tilting to turn and how much to lean... still needs work.

Edited May 23, 2019 by erk1024

[svenomous]

My foot pain is getting better.  Changing pedal angle had an effect of better distributing weight to the whole sole of the foot, so playing with the horizontal calibration a bit may be worth it.  As for the tiltback, there are two types with KS wheels, I believe (someone correct me if I'm wrong): the "warp speed" tiltback (as KS calls it in their app) that acts as a discouragement to over-speeding, and the "you must dismount" tiltback that results from an extreme low battery or over-temperature condition, basically a condition where the wheel has determined that failure is imminent.

The speed tiltback is dynamic and is not supposed to force a dismount, and in my experience it doesn't.  As "warp speed" is reached it subtly changes the pedal angle backward a bit, and if one pushes past that the hint becomes more pronounced, until it becomes hard to keep accelerating.  As soon as speed is allowed to decrease a bit, the pedal angle smoothly returns to normal.  I'm surprised, @erk1024, that what happened to you forced you to dismount, and that the beep/voice warning never sounded.  I've had the warning set to the same speed as the tiltback (instead of lower), and the result in my experience was that the first hint of tilt came first, and then as the tilt became more pronounced the voice or beeps would start.  When I had the speed set very low I experimented with pushing past the tilt, and it was possible by simply leaning forward with great determination; the wheel kept going (and beeping, and tilting).  I wonder if maybe something other than speed tiltback was going on in the experience you described.

The emergency tiltback on the other hand basically dumps the rider off the back of the machine.  The pedals go to something like 45 degrees rearward tilt and the natural result is that the wheel slows rapidly and the rider cannot remain mounted, and (hopefully safely) steps off the back.  I've seen this demonstrate most recently in one of Marty Backe's videos where he was stress-testing wheels on a very steep hill and comparatively overheating their boards.  Haven't had the "pleasure" of experiencing this myself.

[erk1024]

Longer Rides & Speed Wobbles

On 5/24/2019 at 3:14 PM, svenomous said:

the "you must dismount" tiltback that results from an extreme low battery or over-temperature condition,

I definitely got the "you must dismount" tiltback, because it tilted back hard and I went slower and slower until I had to step off. Not sure at all how I triggered it. I got rained on that day. I may have exceeded the low tiltback speed I'd set by a couple mph, but I didn't get any voice warnings. I doubt it was overheating, and I had tons of battery. It's a mystery. I've now increased the speed and switched to beeps. Yesterday I got level 1 and level 2 beeps.

Friday I practiced turns for an hour at the park. Saturday did a 10.4 mile bike lane loop. That was super fun and I consciously tried to relax my feet while I was riding. That helped quite a bit, and I just think the relevant muscles are getting used to riding. 

Two things I noticed. I'm struggling with speed wobbles. They are much worse when going INTO the wind, and much better with the wind at my back. I think that's because I'm leaning forward more to get more power out of the wheel. I'm worried that this is moving the contact patch forward, and that's a contributing factor to the wobbles? Also when I'm riding, it seems like I have to put constant pressure on the front of my feet to urge the wheel forward.

I'm considering (in this order):

1. Moving my feet forward another inch
2. Changing the riding mode to expert for more responsiveness
3. Adjusting the horizontal calibration (as @svenomous suggested)

@meepmeepmayer @Smoother What do you think?

If I adjusted the calibration, I would adjust it back a degree or two right? That way if the pedals are level, it's giving the wheel a message of "I'm leaning forward 2 degrees".

In terms of battery consumption, the wheel reported going 10.6 miles, which used 17.5% of the battery. I know that the battery percentage calculation is not super accurate. But if you extrapolate from those numbers, then taking the battery from 100% to 25% would give a range of 45 miles. Marty is much lighter than I am, and he got less than that. Still, that's excellent range, blowing away electric skateboards and OneWheels. The OW Pint goes 6-8 miles at 16mph--so only a half an hour of riding? Total mileage is now 30. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by erk1024
added text

[meepmeepmayer]

Don't overanalyze, just try stuff.

I'd also try the soft ride mode and just see how it works for one full ride. Hard sounds awful and stressful to me, I love my softie ACM mode (medium, but very soft compared to other wheels). Maybe the easier tilting of the wheel makes it easier to speed up for you?

It may be better simply with different shoes as well.

32 minutes ago, erk1024 said:

If I adjusted the calibration, I would adjust it back a degree or two right? That way if the pedals are level, it's giving the wheel a message of "I'm leaning forward 2 degrees".

Easier too push the pedals down if they are tilted up. Just make sure it does not cause a problem with braking.

In the same vein as the ride mode, also try a forward tilt.

[erk1024]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Easier to push the pedals down if they are tilted up. Just make sure it does not cause a problem with braking.

I had tested the body for being level before (of course, not easy to do with the sloping crescent that is the top of the KS18xl), and it seemed OK. This time I tested the pedals, and the pedals were 2.9 degrees tilted forward. So I've re-calibrated for level, and I'll give that a try. Thanks @meepmeepmayer for the suggestions... I'll experiment. 

I took a picture of the foot position I've been using, and this looks like too far back? The ankle is behind the center of the wheel.

Edited May 26, 2019 by erk1024

[svenomous]

I agree with meepmeepmayer, just try stuff.  Foot positions, calibration angles, ride modes.  Spend an hour in a parking lot doing acceleration/deceleration and turns while trying stuff.

My current preference on pedal angle is 4 degrees backward tilt.  Btw, in the screenshot above, @erk1024, the level app you're using seems to be showing a lateral tilt, is that correct?  During calibration you want to ensure lateral tilt is zero, and only longitudinal tilt is present at the angle you're trying to set.

I haven't quite decided yet what my favorite foot position is, because I still get a lot of speed wobbles, and so far the only thing I've concluded is that if I stand far forward it's more comfortable overall, but I get severe braking wobble.  If I stand far backward it's a lot of effort to maintain speed.  I'm very likely overthinking the foot positions and their effects, and the fact is that I'm just prone to wobbles right now, period.

[tenofnine]

I just recently figured out how to not wobble while braking (very common and pervasive even amongst experienced riders). It might have just been a muscle memory "time and experience" thing but ever since I started learning back more (trusting the wheel) and keeping my legs straighter I don't have brake wobbles anymore. I think naturally your instinct is to not lean back too far and your body tends to crouch a bit when you brake just out of worry....so you end up doing the 2 things that make you wobble.

[erk1024]

55 minutes ago, svenomous said:

the level app you're using seems to be showing a lateral tilt

That was before I did the actual calibration, and in any case the pedals have a mild inward tilt, so they are not going to be level when the wheel is. I carefully leveled the top of the wheel and then taped it to a sturdy (8" thick) table leg before setting the forward and back tilt so there wouldn't be any movement during calibration. But thanks for the suggestions!

1 hour ago, svenomous said:

the fact is that I'm just prone to wobbles right now, period.

This could be the case for me as well. Because of my foot position, I have to put pressure on the balls of my feet to maintain speed, and that's probably a contributing factor. And it leads to fatigue, so yea, gotta move those feet forwards. After I try it at 0 degrees, I may try a backwards tilt.

[erk1024]

55 minutes ago, tenofnine said:

I started learning back more (trusting the wheel) and keeping my legs straighter

Wow cool. I'll try that for braking. I do get braking wobbles as well, but not too bad.

[erk1024]

Foot Scale

The purpose of today's ride was to experiment with different foot positions (as well as just have fun). But how do place your foot consistently each time? It's a little hard to judge on a featureless pedal. So I added a scale.

 

I marked off inches from the back of the pedal, and then I just positioned the shoe's bright orange marker on the scale. After a bunch of experiments, I ended up moving my foot forward an inch and a half from the previous position (not pictured). This is as far as I can move it up because I can feel the front edge of the pedal is right in that space between the foot and the pads of the toes (I have size 14 feet in US measurements). This created basically no pressure on the balls of my feet to maintain speed. I only need pressure to accelerate. This was a big improvement, and I definitely had less wobble today, and kept hitting my first level alarm at 35kph. This happened even if I was going into the wind, and if the were some bumps in the asphalt. Re-calibrating level on the wheel seemed to help as well. Super Fun!

I had a blast. Added 15 miles to the wheel tally (Kingsong miles). I had more confidence in the medium-speed turns. More balance at low speeds. And @tenofnine 's advice on reducing braking wobble worked great! Thanks! 

 

Edited May 28, 2019 by erk1024

[svenomous]

Oh, that's more precise and scientific than anything I was willing to do .  I was just eyeing the front part of my foot and judging the "overhang" and "angle" (duck-footed for example).  The hard part was always to get the second foot to join in symmetrical perfection, as I'm a little OCD about such things.  It tends to just sort of go where it wants to during the mount, and then I spend the next 10 second at low speed shuffling it into place, more or less, while trying not to wobble-crash.

Anyway, great that you've had such a nice ride, and fun, @erk1024!  So you've basically doubled your total mileage in one fell swoop, haven't you?  Or did I misunderstand your previous total to be in the same ballpark as today's total?  Btw did you play with ride mode (hard, medium, soft), and if so did you feel it made a difference?

[erk1024]

15 minutes ago, svenomous said:

The hard part was always to get the second foot to join in symmetrical perfection, as I'm a little OCD about such things.  It tends to just sort of go where it wants to during the mount, and then I spend the next 10 second at low speed shuffling it into place, more or less, while trying not to wobble-crash.

I do exactly the same thing. It feels weird if your feet are mismatched!

As far as distance goes, I was at 35 KS miles Saturday and now up to 50 KS miles today. Each ride, I have less fatigue so the mileage is going up. I also went that distance on 20% battery (from 99% down to 79%). I was going to charge to 100% ahead of my ride to let the batteries balance, but I started charging too late... next week. So my guess of 45ish miles using 75% battery agreed with your long ride it sounds like. 

p.s. I didn't mess around with the ride mode. Everything was working so well, that I just enjoyed it. I found some branching and serpentine walkways at a sports complex, and was having fun taking different paths, ducking under trees, and accelerating through the straight sections. 

Edited May 28, 2019 by erk1024

[erk1024]

Excellent Trail for a long ride (Is this exercise?)

This morning I drove to Miami to go on the Rickenbacker trail. It's 8.5 miles one way with ocean views, beaches, meandering paths through tunnels of trees, bridges and a lighthouse. I wasn't serious about taking photos, it was more of an exploratory ride. At 22 miles, it's also my longest to date. I didn't take a photo of one section--I was too busy trying not to crash. The trail was eighteen inches wide, bumpy and S-curved all the way with lots of debris. The trees fully enclosed it to make it unusually dark inside. This is one of the spots I want to go back and photograph for real. Overall, this is a great trail with lots of turns to keep it interesting.

One of the things I've been thinking over is the "exercise" aspect. Riding the wheel is not aerobic--I'm not breathing hard afterwards. If I'd ridden the same route on my road bike, I would have gotten a solid workout. But after a couple hours of riding, my quads ARE tired from being in various levels of crouching in response to bumps and just from controlling the wheel. And my torso (rib and back muscles mostly) are tired from ... what? Twisting, bending, leaning? All the stabilizing that's going on? In the end, I guess I'm calling it "light exercise". If your legs feel like rubber after two hours, then there is some exercise going on.

One of the advantages is that Florida is super hot and humid, especially in the summer and it's easy to overheat if you're doing heavy exercise. As soon as that sun comes out, then the temperature is 90 degrees and even pouring water over your head doesn't help much--too humid to evaporate. So it's great to have an outdoor activity that doesn't induce heatstroke after a few minutes.

I sort of backed into this hobby. I was thinking about getting an electric scooter so I could cover more ground when doing photography in the city. Doing research for the scooter, I stumbled across the OneWheel's, electric skateboards, and the e-wheels. The e-wheel looked WAY too fun not to try, and IT IS! Now it's its own hobby. It's a great thing to do for the pure enjoyment of it. It's a visceral way to zip around and burn off steam after work, or go exploring and getting outside for a while. Pretty soon I might even use it for the purpose I bought it for. LOL.

Edited June 2, 2019 by erk1024
fixed text issues

[Smoother]

Now your cooking with gas!  It's rides like this that build your skill level and STILL give you tons of pleasure.  I suspect all the muscle ache you describe (quads excepted) will go away soon, not from the exercise (because on a trail like this there is very little) but from muscle memory kicking in.  You're headed in the right direction.  Keep it up (yeah, like you were about to stop! Pff!)

Edited June 6, 2019 by Smoother

[svenomous]

When do you think you'll feel ready to take the bubble wrap off the wheel? If you're feeling ready for 8+ mile trails, I'm guessing you don't get a lot of "unscheduled dismounts" anymore, so maybe soon?

[Mike Sacristan]

@erk1024 i've been enjoying reading your updates! Thanks for sharing!

I learned to ride with my heels lined up with the back of my pedals. When I learned to ride backwards I shifted my feet so they were more centered. That way I have my braking power and acceleration power more balanced. More forward tilt of the pedals and more forward positioning of my feet gives me more acceleration. I ride an MSX on the hard pedal mode which is almost completely stiff.

Regarding trails, on long rides where I have to squat because of roots, rocks, etc I definitely feel it in my quads. I don't feel it as much in my calves anymore. I wouldn't say that EUC riding is a replacement for me doing leg exercises though I would love it if that were the case. I try to incorporate maintenance exercises for my legs into my workouts so that I don't end up just training upper body. Assisted one legged squat, shrimp squats, a lot of jumping and a lot of L-sits.

 

[erk1024]

13 hours ago, svenomous said:

When do you think you'll feel ready to take the bubble wrap off the wheel? If you're feeling ready for 8+ mile trails, I'm guessing you don't get a lot of "unscheduled dismounts" anymore, so maybe soon?

It's defintely time to take the bubble wrap off! I ordered one of the Roll.nz covers for it, which I'll throw on there. I still do have occasional drops of the wheel. I'm not sure if I'll leave the cover on or not. I don't drop my iPhone very often, but I still have a case on it.  

Edited June 6, 2019 by erk1024

[svenomous]

48 minutes ago, erk1024 said:

I don't drop my iPhone very often, but I still have a case on it.

Agreed, but I'd rather have a nice case on my phone than to keep it wrapped in a towel and packing tape .  The EUC Bodyglove seems like the perfect analogy to a nice phone case, and there's probably no reason to take it off once it has replaced the bubble wrap.

[erk1024]

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Regarding trails, on long rides where I have to squat because of roots, rocks, etc I definitely feel it in my quads. I don't feel it as much in my calves anymore.

Thanks for the link! I'll try it out.

I ride a road bike (although not during Spring because of allergies) so I thought my quads and calves were pretty strong. I don't feel it in my calves at all, but definitely in the quads. That last ride was a lot of turns and bumps, and stop and go, so it took around two hours, and the quads were toast. I consider that a feature not a bug of riding EUC's. It's nice to get some light exercise while having fun. I bet going off-road would be even better for pushing some muscles.