Average lifespan of a uniwheel? Could really use your input

[philippe_kruse]

Thinking about starting a business centered around uniwheels, and for that I could really use your input on what to expect as to the lifespan of these products - especially the Ninebot range.

With daily, light use - let's say 30 minutes per day - how long would you expect them to last? 2 years? 3 ? I know the battery will probably give out first, but that can be replaced.

[meepmeepmayer]

41 minutes ago, philippe_kruse said:

Thinking about starting a business centered around uniwheels, and for that I could really use your input on what to expect as to the lifespan of these products - especially the Ninebot range.

I wouldn't build a EUC business on Ninebots. The old models are 4 years old now and nobody really should buy them (except for a very low price), and the new Ninebot One Z is reportedly (not 100% confirmed though) the last EUC Ninebot will produce.

In addition, Ninebot fucks over their dealers horribly. They sell you their wheel, take your money, and then drop all support. They won't sell you spare parts and ignore you if you get a defective wheel. That's exactly why @Jason McNeil of ewheels fame stopped selling the Z - he had to disassemble new wheels for spare parts on his own dime instead, just to be able to do repairs for his customers!

Ninebot also have a history of doing this. A few years ago, they suddenly stopped supporting dealers (no wheels sold, no spare parts, ignored otherwise) one day to the next. Ian from Speedy Feet got majorly fucked over by them. So essentially the same thing.

Nothing worse than to try and build a business on a manufacturer with exactly one competitive model, nothing new in the pipeline, and a history of fucking sellers.

-

As for your original question, a wheel's lifespan is usually measured in km driven (because that's the real usage, especially on the batteries). I'd say 5000km is good as new and 10000km is still fine (if it works, it works). We've had wheels for years now, and there are basically no reports of wheels dying of old age, even the old models.

So it looks wheels just don't die till they mechanically break down from pure use, the batteries no longer work (especially if they have sat unused and unmaintained for a very long time), or people simply get a newer wheel loooooooong before an old one stops working.

About batteries: one charge cycle is the typical maximum distance of your wheel on a full charge, e.g. 65km for my ACM. With some normal battery treatment, a few hundred charge cycles is before you even notice a capacity loss, and maybe 1000 or more charge cycles is where you might have 20% capacity loss (for my wheel, 1000 cycles is 65000km!).

So in short: Unless you have a very rare case of bad luck and something stops working, wheels, if the batteries are used and tended to regularly, will work til you get a new, shiny, better one. Simple as that.

[philippe_kruse]

That is some really excellent input, thank you so much. The reason I started on the Ninebot range is that they are easily accessible here in Denmark (Germany as well). Where as some of the other brands are hard to come by.

Which would you recommend for durability/support/allround purpose?

[meepmeepmayer]

They're all equally good (or bad). Gotway and King Song are the two big ones, and there's Inmotion... that's about it for the active bigger manufacturers (if we stay clear of Ninebot). Probably Inmotion has the best behind-the-scenes structures and support. GW and KS might be more or less equally good/bad to deal with as a seller, I don't know. Build quality (which is not safety, all brand wheels are safe!), I'd say KS and IM are a bit better than Gotway.

Do you already have a wheel? It seems you need to learn about the state of things now, best option is to get a wheel and see where it leads you. Meet some people like @Henrik Olsen, get involved, etc.

Edited May 4, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[LanghamP]

I think the two weak points are the axle (regardless of your weight) and a battery (cell) going bad.

However, at the present pace of EUC development, it's probably better to prepare mentally that your wheel won't realistically be used past 5000 miles, or rather under 1000 hours of usage, because 1000 hours is the 600 cycle discharge of a lithium ion battery, assuming you ride it 1 to 2 hours at a time.

My 3000+ mile KS16S is looking distinctly ratty; after opening it up several times I do not think EUCs actually wear out so much as they are destroyed, because the axle design is the weak point.

I wonder if the "rock hard" settings of all present wheels is partly from the built-up axle and footpad assembly, because each new generation of wheels is using beefier designs. It'd be interesting to weigh the axle assembly across generations; I'd guess the porkier newer wheels are heavier because of the axle weight.

Honestly, I love seeing the newer wheels gain 10-15 pounds, because that means as a maturing technology the designers are putting extra metal in areas prone to failure. Although lugging around a 50 pound 16 incher is a bitch to do, that wheel is way safer and more forgiving for you, and as a delicately-balanced EUC rider, safety is paramount.

[philippe_kruse]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

 

Do you already have a wheel? It seems you need to learn about the state of things now, best option is to get a wheel and see where it leads you. Meet some people like @Henrik Olsen, get involved, etc.

Nope that's the next step. I was going to start with the ninebot S2, but that's out the window.

 

Now I'm considering the InMotion V5 or V5F. We are not allowed to ride more than 20km/h here anyway.

[Jason McNeil]

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Do you already have a wheel? It seems you need to learn about the state of things now, best option is to get a wheel and see where it leads you. Meet some people like @Henrik Olsen, get involved, etc.

Agreed, recommend having a chat with @Henrik Olsen. Had the pleasure of meeting him in Berlin at an IFA tradeshow in 2017, not only is he immensely experienced, but also has some experience with selling Wheels in Denmark at one point.

[Mono]

On 5/4/2019 at 1:32 PM, philippe_kruse said:

Thinking about starting a business centered around uniwheels, and for that I could really use your input on what to expect as to the lifespan of these products - especially the Ninebot range.

With daily, light use - let's say 30 minutes per day - how long would you expect them to last? 2 years? 3 ? I know the battery will probably give out first, but that can be replaced.

This may give some insight:

If you don't always jump up and down curbs (like I do) and do not rest the battery on full charge, I'd expect 5+ years and  50,000km, which requires many tire changes. My first V8 broke down after 2 years and a few thousand curb jumps.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Mono

[philippe_kruse]

Why on earth is this forum limited to 2 comments per 24 hours - is it trying to drive away new users? Really weird, and frustrating as well.

 

Anyway.. I just read the whole thread from Henrik Olsen. How scary is it - that I have to find about that they changed the recent legislation AGAIN, from a dude on an internet forum??? I researched quite hard to figure out what the law was, and I didn't read that they had changed it again -nowhere do they specify that (they = government).

 

If it's true that it is now only legal to drive wheels that at a maximum can go 20km/h, that kills it for me. I was fine with the 20km/h if it was a software limit - because it meant you could have enough reserve power to at least keep the 20km/h going uphill and even with a fairly heavy driver like myself. 

But buying a wheel with a max of 20km/h under the very best conditions, means probably real world like 12-15km/h going uphill. No thanks. Stupid government. 

 

 

[chopsywa]

25 minutes ago, philippe_kruse said:

Why on earth is this forum limited to 2 comments per 24 hours - is it trying to drive away new users? Really weird, and frustrating as well.

 

Anyway.. I just read the whole thread from Henrik Olsen. How scary is it - that I have to find about that they changed the recent legislation AGAIN, from a dude on an internet forum??? I researched quite hard to figure out what the law was, and I didn't read that they had changed it again -nowhere do they specify that (they = government).

 

If it's true that it is now only legal to drive wheels that at a maximum can go 20km/h, that kills it for me. I was fine with the 20km/h if it was a software limit - because it meant you could have enough reserve power to at least keep the 20km/h going uphill and even with a fairly heavy driver like myself. 

But buying a wheel with a max of 20km/h under the very best conditions, means probably real world like 12-15km/h going uphill. No thanks. Stupid government. 

 

 

Is the law that the wheel must only be capable of 20, or must be configured for max 20? If the latter you can set many wheels to tilt back at variable speeds. I have my MCM5 set to 32km/h. It works a treat and loves hills. Max unrestricted is about 45.

[philippe_kruse]

Before it could be interpreted that it was ok if you had configured the speed limit at 20. The new adjustment to the law states that the max is a hard max - so if it's in the specs that a wheel can go up to 24, then it's illegal. It seems.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, philippe_kruse said:

Why on earth is this forum limited to 2 comments per 24 hours - is it trying to drive away new users?

I think it is fear of getting spammed. I also think this is too restrictive, @John Eucist ?

1 hour ago, philippe_kruse said:

If it's true that it is now only legal to drive wheels that at a maximum can go 20km/h, that kills it for me. I was fine with the 20km/h if it was a software limit - because it meant you could have enough reserve power to at least keep the 20km/h going uphill and even with a fairly heavy driver like myself. 

But buying a wheel with a max of 20km/h under the very best conditions, means probably real world like 12-15km/h going uphill. No thanks. Stupid government.

Well, I don't think you understand the difference between a speed and a power limit well enough. Henrik didn't do the community a great service pretending that those are the same. A (hard or otherwise) speed limit does not limit the power of the wheel below this speed. From the motor-design perspective it is even the contrary: a 1kW motor designed for 20km/h will have more power at 10km/h than a 1kW motor designed for, say, 40km/h. As for modern cars, it will anyway be a software solution which will be legal if the software cannot be changed. To get the maximum power at the riding speed limit of, say, 20km/h, the non-load motor maximal speed must be double the value, i.e. 40km/h.

[mrelwood]

There are Laws and there are laws. In Finland the max power is 1000W, and max capable top speed 25 or perhaps even 15 km/h. Hasn’t bothered me one bit. While I ride fast when no-one is around, I ride sensibly. And if I see a police around, I also ride slowly. No issues yet.

Regarding the expected lifetime of an EUC, my experience is:

IPS Lhotz: 2000km, no issues. Bought a new wheel.

KingSong 16S: 9000km, tire changes, pedal bracket bolt replacement at 8000km, dead battery cell replacement. Bought a new wheel.

Gotway MSX: 5000km, just replaced the tire.

While I did have two necessary bigger repairs made on the 16S, I am a 200lbs off-roader, so not a typical user case. I also believe the wheels generally last until you buy a better one.

[who_the]

My wheels that have "died" from "old age":

MSV3 #2 4,200 miles

MSV3 #1 3,700 miles

Tesla 7,500 miles (bent motor, could have lived on) 

MSX 4,500 miles (Not dead yet!) 

#1 was the only one that experienced complete failure. The motor axle cracked and shell gave out after about 9 months of hard riding. #2 the shell failed at the pedal hangers and I swapped the batteries into the MSX. 

[Mono]

34 minutes ago, who_the said:

The motor axle cracked and shell gave out after about 9 months of hard riding.

That's a funny way to describe dying from old age.

[who_the]

15 minutes ago, Mono said:

That's a funny way to describe dying from old age.

Tell that to Keith Richards.  

[Joker10]

Mrelwoood put some km on the KS16s.  I had right at 2k km on mine when I sold it.  Still worked good, tire was getting really worn.  I am approaching 2k km on the 18l I have now.  The tire looks fine while the 16s was badly worn with less miles on it.  I think I’m good for another 1k km on the tire.  So far I have never had to replace a thing from wear or use.  I will be extremely unhappy if I don’t get 5000 miles out of the 18l and I will be let down if I don’t get 10000 miles out of it.  I typically don’t charge to 100% and don’t normally run below 30%.

[John Eucist]

On 5/5/2019 at 10:34 PM, philippe_kruse said:

Why on earth is this forum limited to 2 comments per 24 hours - is it trying to drive away new users? Really weird, and frustrating as well.

New users are restricted to 3 posts in 24 hours not 2. Unfortunately this is necessary for spam prevention. However I have just changed it to 5 instead of 3. As your reputation increases due to the quality of your posts that number goes to as high as 100.

[Bosq]

On 5/4/2019 at 1:37 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

no reports of wheels dying of old age, even the old models

I have IPS Xima Lhotz, which has served me well for about 2 years until one morning it just wouldn't turn on. It's not the switch or batteries, so I'm thinking the BMS....however Im no technical wizard and I'm having trouble finding anyone who fixes these Damn things....! Have you got any advice?? 

 

I'm in the UK..

Thanks! Tom

Edited May 11, 2019 by Bosq

[meepmeepmayer]

Sorry, no idea what to do there. Not sure if it is a good idea (financially and safety-wise) to repair this. 1radwerkstatt.de in Germany seems to be qualified to diagnose and repair EUCs, and I guess the Russian EcoDrift guys are good. I don't know anyone else.

But this is the ideal case of old age failure (presumably). No problems during riding, just doesn't work one day from the start. No crash!

[Bosq]

yeah, glad it didn't fail during use! I'm thinking of shipping it 1radwerkstatt.de and seeing what they can do with it.....shame we haven't got anything similar in the UK! 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, John Eucist said:

New users are restricted to 3 posts in 24 hours not 2. Unfortunately this is necessary for spam prevention. However I have just changed it to 5 instead of 3. As your reputation increases due to the quality of your posts that number goes to as high as 100.

Interesting, I didn't know that there was an upper limit on posts per day. I can be pretty prolific sometimes and I've never hit this limit. So I guess the max upper limit is at a good value 

[philippe_kruse]

I think it's weird to be honest. You say it's to combat spam, but why can other forums manage just fine then?

Besides the comments limit, there is also a ban on sending private messages. I still get the "you are only allowed to send 0 messages per day" error.

[meepmeepmayer]

@philippe_kruse Gave you some upvotes against that.

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, philippe_kruse said:

I think it's weird to be honest. You say it's to combat spam, but why can other forums manage just fine then?

Besides the comments limit, there is also a ban on sending private messages. I still get the "you are only allowed to send 0 messages per day" error.

It is what it is. After a few days you'll be over it and never think about it again. We've all survived the process