denmark The Government SCREWED US - Electric Unicycles Legal Situation

[esaj]

5 hours ago, Mono said:

You should understand though that a speed limit does not determine the power of an EUC. Speed and power are different specifications. While limited power does limit the speed, it is not the other way around: limited speed does not limit the power of an EUC. That is, legislation that limits the speed of EUCs does not force manufacturers or customers to sell or buy EUCs that are "underpowered".

"Only" 3-4 years ago, we were riding close to (or above) 30km/h on wheels that had around 500W (nominal) motors (personal best was somewhere around 33kmh/20.5mph on a Firewheel 550W motor, hobby16, around my weight, reported achieving around 36km/h = 22.5mph on the same wheel, both measured with carefully calibrated bike computers measuring speed directly from the tire) , so it's true that the speed is not (as such) limited/determined by the power. It is possible to make a motor with lots of power, but very slow speed (for given voltage), thus having higher torque, or vice versa.

At least here in Finland, the legal text contains both the allowed max speed (25km/h) and maximum allowed power (1000W nominal) for a self-balancing device. In this case, I personally think that these two values shouldn't be confused, and the law should only speak of speed (and personally I'd set the limit to 30km/h to keep up with the bike traffic). I can understand the speed limit, but even if I had a 10kW motor that's capable of maximum of 25km/h at (say) 60V of input voltage, who would the power hurt (the "extra" power would go into torque instead of speed). A more "layman" comparison I could think of is a tractor unit ("semi-tractor", like in large trucks/18-wheelers/whatever you call them in English) and a high-power sports cars. Both can have 400-500 horsepowers, but one has a huge torque, whereas the other has very high speed. Of course technically it's not that simple (diesel vs. gasoline combustion engines, different transmissions etc), but the point still stands: power is not same as speed.

Edited April 30, 2019 by esaj

[Mono]

12 minutes ago, esaj said:

I can understand the speed limit, but even if I had a 10kW motor that's capable of maximum of 25km/h at (say) 60V of input voltage, who would the power hurt (the "extra" power would go into torque instead of speed).

Certainly true. From the legislative perspective a power limit is somewhat a double-net on the possible speed. With a power limit it becomes much more difficult to tune a legal device to illegally obtain higher speeds. My personal preference would be a weight limit over a power limit.

[Mono]

21 minutes ago, esaj said:

It is possible to make a motor with lots of power, but very slow speed (for given voltage), thus having higher torque, or vice versa.

In any case, the maximum speed of a reasonably safe wheel can not be determined by running out of torque. It must be set to a value way before the motor runs out of torque.

[esaj]

11 minutes ago, Mono said:

Certainly true. From the legislative perspective a power limit is somewhat a double-net on the possible speed. With a power limit it becomes much more difficult to tune a legal device to illegally obtain higher speeds. My personal preference would be a weight limit over a power limit.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "weight limit". For motorcycles, again here in Finland, we have three classifications:

A1 ("light motorcycle", you can drive a license when you're 16, I did back in the day, that is, 20 years ago):

-Maximum 125cc engine and a maximum power of 11kW (back in my day it was 9kW, but my bike still had 14kW, with papers saying it was 9kW ), and maximum power/weight-ratio of 0.1kW/kg

A2 (This is some new classification, never heard of it until checking on the regulations now):

-Maximum power of 35kW and maximum power/weight -ratio of 0.2kW/kg, cannot be choked/throttled (not sure on the correct term, usually for A1-class, the bike had a "choke" either in the cylinder exhaust or exhaust pipe) from bikes that have over double the power

A:

-All other motorcycles

Back in my time, when you got the A1-license, you were automatically granted an A-license when you turned 20 (don't remember if you needed to have normal car ("B") -license also).

The point being, do you mean power/weight -ratio?

Edited April 30, 2019 by esaj

[Unventor]

3 minutes ago, Mono said:

Certainly true. From the legislative perspective a power limit is somewhat a double-net on the possible speed. With a power limit it becomes much more difficult to tune a legal device to illegally obtain higher speeds. My personal preference would be a weight limit over a power limit.

Like I said before, personal preference is licence, that can be rewoked if you misbehave. 

Just like you have on cars and mc. An idiot can do much harm even at 20kmh. Worst case the idiot force an reaction from eq a car or truck trying to avoid an EUC hitting someone else in the process.

[Mono]

5 hours ago, Gasmantle said:

I find it offensive that you refer to Socialists like myself as scum.

Just don't take anybody doing this seriously. Just ignore the ignorant.

[Mono]

6 minutes ago, esaj said:

The point being, do you mean power/weight -ratio?

I meant absolute weight, because limited weight also limits to some extend the power and because weight in itself has a risk potential. I didn't think about a limited power/weight ratio but that may be feasible as well.

[svenomous]

One thing to keep in mind with a self-balancing device is that it has not speed limit.  It has tiltback to try to enforce a speed restriction, it has beeps/warnings, but inherently it has no speed limit except of course the "faceplant limit" when it cuts out and harms the rider.  It is impossible for an EUC to prevent a rider (except maybe a very light one) from overcoming the titlback and forcing the wheel to go faster than whatever limit it wants to maintain...up until the motor/battery runs out of torque/power and the cutout occurs.  So, a 2000W wheel can have a 20kmh "limit," but almost anyone can push it to 50kmh regardless, unless the manufacturer is willing to either force extreme tiltback or to allow the wheel to cut out abruptlly.  Is that not true?

[svenomous]

Actually, I'm not sure about my own statement, after thinking about it some more.  A "weak" wheel, maybe, but a strong one (like the 2000W one I used as an example), not so sure.  I've seen examples of a wheel doing extreme tiltback in emergencies (overheat, overload), and it seems that a strong wheel (enough power, enough battery) should be able to force a rider back to either slow down or even dismount, if it really wants to, without necessarily dumping the rider over the front in a cutout.  So, maybe a "true speed limiter" is possible?

[Mono]

1 hour ago, svenomous said:

It is impossible for an EUC to prevent a rider (except maybe a very light one) from overcoming the titlback and forcing the wheel to go faster than whatever limit it wants to maintain

I doubt that you wrote this out of experience. Try it with a wheel on which you can set an arbitrary tiltback speed and set the speed limit to 5km/h and tell us when and how you were able to ride 20km/h 

I guess you are literally right: it may be very difficult to entirely prevent the possibility to ride through tiltback. But then it's also true the other way around: it is very difficult to entirely ride through well-implemented tiltback and only very few riders may have the skills and guts to do it.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Mono

[svenomous]

Thanks @Mono, you're right, I have little experience in this area.  I've experienced tiltbackin the few riding/training sessions I've done so far, and it seemed to me I could just lean harder and overcome the titlt to still make it accelerate, at least a little bit.  I guess it comes down to which is greater, the rider's weight and ability to move CG forward, or the wheel's "strength" in counteracting that.  With a very strong wheel I guess it can just overcome any forward lean, at least while within its "envelope."  With a weak battery and at the outer edge of the riding envelope there might not be enough torque left for the wheel to position itself ahead of the rider as it needs to do to "tilt back" and prevent acceleration.

[Smoother]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

In any case, the maximum speed of a reasonably safe wheel can not be determined by running out of torque. It must be set to a value way before the motor runs out of torque.

In other words, the King Song way. 

BTW I hate hate speech. 

[Mono]

On 5/1/2019 at 1:56 AM, svenomous said:

I guess it comes down to which is greater, the rider's weight and ability to move CG forward, or the wheel's "strength" in counteracting that.  With a very strong wheel I guess it can just overcome any forward lean, at least while within its "envelope."  With a weak battery and at the outer edge of the riding envelope there might not be enough torque left for the wheel to position itself ahead of the rider as it needs to do to "tilt back" and prevent acceleration.

Tiltback functionality has little to do with rider weight and wheel strength. As long as the wheel can balance the rider it can "shoot" in front of the rider or fall behind "at will". That is the definition of (self-)balancing. When the wheel is in front of the rider, the rider will try to tilt the wheel back actively (push the heel) to not fall off behind. Then, tiltback is simply a change of the neutral pedal angle of the wheel (which is maybe the most important point to understand regarding tiltback). The idea that the rider can change the pedal angle by pushing the pedals is just not accurate under any normal circumstances. Pushing the pedals changes the speed of the wheel under the rider, not the pedal angle. That is the basic principle of riding an EUC (and there is not much more to it than that, surprisingly).

Under tiltback the wheel still operates exactly the same, just the pedals are not horizontal anymore. That simple change makes a big difference for the rider, up to the point where the wheel may become unridable (consider the pedal fully turned into vertical position, then it will be impossible to put weight on the pedal without to accelerate the wheel).

What you are describing is an overlean situation: a heavy rider may be able to put so much weight on the pedal tip that the wheel can not keep up (or only barely just about). Like this, the rider is maxing out acceleration. That is the only situation (besides max braking) where the wheel does not anymore have full control over the neutral pedal angle, because it doesn't have enough power left. Obviously, one can max out acceleration only for a quite short period of time, and it is a difficult and risky procedure on the edge of balancing. Only few riders will be able and willing to do it on purpose and they never should for obvious safety concerns, unless in a safe practicing environment.

Edited May 2, 2019 by Mono

[Mono]

8 hours ago, Smoother said:

In other words, the King Song way. 

Right, though King Song is not the only manufacturer following this policy.

8 hours ago, Smoother said:

BTW I hate hate speech. 

Damn, me too, but I just don't follow exactly, or wait, "King Song way" has already risen to the status of being hate speech in itself?

[Flying W]

Seems odd to me that something with such a small user base would get enough attention to become illegal. 

A modern road bicycle can be pedaled to 50kph, having a 25kph speed limit for electric bicycles seems odd to me too. 

I think a lot of us have had many positive changes from becoming addicted to the wheel and I'd be sad to see that taken away by people who dont know anything about the hobby. 

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, Flying W said:

having a 25kph speed limit for electric bicycles seems odd to me too. 

To be precise, electric bicycles don’t have a speed limit. Only the electric motor in them does. Once the motor turns off at 25km/h, the rider can pedal an electric bicycle to one’s heart’s content up to whatever speed one has muscle to reach, and no law is broken.

I think the law makers don’t consider EUCs individually, but that they lump all small electric only operated vehicles under one law.

18 hours ago, Mono said:

Pushing the pedals changes the speed of the wheel under the rider, not the pedal angle. That is the basic principle of riding an EUC (and there is not much more to it than that, surprisingly).

Very well said. I think an EUC is so stable and fast at keeping the pedals at whichever position the firmware is programmed to, that it messes up the thought process for many on how the very simple EUC operates. It’s just a wheel inside a shell that speeds up and brakes down based on (how the firmware is programmed to react to) the tilt position of the shell, nothing else.

Edited May 2, 2019 by mrelwood

[Unventor]

@Henrik Olsen so do you have any update from EUC riding rules and laws in Denmark? 

[Rama Douglas]

On 4/27/2019 at 6:50 PM, Marty Backe said:

Understood.

From my perspective, Henrik's comments were not hyperbole. If I just discovered that California was passing such a law, I would literally be panicking because of how I was going to be affected. Henrik looked calm by comparison 

One good thing about Los Angeles area with regards to possible forthcoming legislation, is that the ratio of people to cops is waaaay higher here than in other cities (According to KFI  AM radio). Chances of being stopped anywhere outside of Santa Monica/Venice area I believe would be pretty unlikely. (At least where I ride) 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Rama Douglas said:

One good thing about Los Angeles area with regards to possible forthcoming legislation, is that the ratio of people to cops is waaaay higher here than in other cities (According to KFI  AM radio). Chances of being stopped anywhere outside of Santa Monica/Venice area I believe would be pretty unlikely. (At least where I ride) 

Exactly! And when have you ever seen a cop on any paved or dirt trails? I haven't. Fortunately, in the town that I live in I ride by the police all the time with zero issues.

Californians are known for going their own way so I'm not concerned about anything ever happening here 

Edited May 16, 2019 by Marty Backe

[Flying W]

Down here in mission viejo the cops either stop to ask about it and think it's really cool, or they dont even look. 

Seems like we're not even on the radar yet!

[Rama Douglas]

33 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Exactly! And when have you ever seen a cop on any paved or dirt trails? I haven't. Fortunately, in the town that I live in I ride by the police all the time with zero issues.

Californians are known for going their own way so I'm not concerned about anything ever happening here 

Yeah, my run ins with the fuzz have been that of praise, as I was lending a hand. They told me people like me make the city great! 💜👊😎

[LanghamP]

On 4/30/2019 at 5:34 PM, Mono said:

I doubt that you wrote this out of experience. Try it with a wheel on which you can set an arbitrary tiltback speed and set the speed limit to 5km/h and tell us when and how you were able to ride 20km/h 

I guess you are literally right: it may be very difficult to entirely prevent the possibility to ride through tiltback. But then it's also true the other way around: it is very difficult to entirely ride through well-implemented tiltback and only very few riders may have the skills and guts to do it.

There's the KS way that kicks you off the wheel and then there's the Inmotion way of suggesting you slow down, although you'll still get sent to the moon if you're straight-legged, as my V5 has happily shown me a few times at top speed. Topping hills is extremely dangerous if you're a beginner.

The problem is that the rider, having hit tiltback many times, will then ignore tiltback because it's not scary enough. How, then, do we make wheels put the fear back into the rider?

I think that near voltage or speed limits, whatever the hell the limit is (I don't know, it's all a sweet mystery), the wheel should shake and make distress noises so the rider unmistakenly knows the wheel is near its limit, and such cues are familiar to us because combustion engines behave that way.

Electric motors fail silently, gracefully, and suddenly, but if we could somehow artificially make them fail noisely, with warnings like it's the Enterprise at Warp 9, then that is forgiving design.

[Dave U]

2 hours ago, Rama Douglas said:

Chances of being stopped anywhere outside of Santa Monica/Venice area I believe would be pretty unlikely.

Are these 2 locations we should stay away from? Are we talking about the Santa Monica Pier and Venice Boardwalk?

Just 2 weeks ago my son and I went for a ride off the Santa Fe Dam/Bike Trail, while riding to the location on the city streets of  Irwindale a patrol officer voiced on his patrol car speaker to "get off the side walk", no pedestrians around.

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, Dave U said:

Are these 2 locations we should stay away from? Are we talking about the Santa Monica Pier and Venice Boardwalk?

Just 2 weeks ago my son and I went for a ride off the Santa Fe Dam/Bike Trail, while riding to the location on the city streets of  Irwindale a patrol officer voiced on his patrol car speaker to "get off the side walk", no pedestrians around.

Probably the whole bike path from Venice to Santa Monica. Personally, I have not ridden there for a few months so I don't know what the situation is actually like right now.

I've never been told to get off the sidewalk. Hopefully that was just a fluke.  In my town there are no bike lanes so doubt that they would suggest I get onto the street.

[Dave U]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Hopefully that was just a fluke

I believe so, soon after the first encounter we ran into another Irwindale patrol car, this time it was all good, just looked at us and kept driving.