Blinking lights

[Flavour]

Hi!

It's my first post. I'm a happy owner of Ninebot E+.

I use it basically every day and I see how EUCs community is growing in Poland.

It's shame Ninebot doesn't have any lights as a standard, because it's a "must have" to ride at night. 
So it's normal everyone mounts some lights for night commute, like bikers.

There is one thing that bothers me and it also visible on this forum... why do you set these light to the blinking mode like silly bikers?

The lights are supposed to:
1. Increase your visibility range and comfort - make the road in front of you visible,
2. Make you visible by other users - cars and bikes,
3. Increase the overall transportation security.

I know there is an option to set a light to blink, but it makes me wonder... why do you do that? 
If your car would have the same option, would you also turn it on? How streets would look like? Like a X-mas tree?

Please do everyone a favour and don't act like silly bikers. Blinking lights:
1. Generate too much distraction for drivers. A red rear light is enough, it doesn't have to blink. Besides it looks just stupid.
2. Decrease your visibility range and comfort. Imagine driving a car when your front light act as a stroboscope (beside how stupid it would look like). The front light is for you and for others. Turn it on... in the constant mode. 
3. If you're still afraid about your visibility, wear reflective bands.

EUCs will be very popular soon in mass transportation. Please do not make the same mistakes as bikers. Be an example and turn your light the right way.

Best Regards 
and happy riding,

Bat

[Jag_Rip]

Hi Bat, welcome to our forums!

I guess we need to differentiate between the small LED and the large high beam Torches. While the small lights are too low powered to effectively light out your road, they also fade into the background for an oncoming vehicle that gets reflected light from hundreds of sources. Those are good to have on blink so you get seen, they serve no other purpose IMO.

There are also some high lumen floodlights, I guess nobody set those on blink mode.

I want to know from you on the other hand: Have you turned off your side LEDs on your bot? If not, what pattern do you use?

[Flavour]

Hi Bat, welcome to our forums!

I guess we need to differentiate between the small LED and the large high beam Torches. While the small lights are too low powered to effectively light out your road, they also fade into the background for an oncoming vehicle that gets reflected light from hundreds of sources. Those are good to have on blink so you get seen, they serve no other purpose IMO.

There are also some high lumen floodlights, I guess nobody set those on blink mode.

I want to know from you on the other hand: Have you turned off your side LEDs on your bot? If not, what pattern do you use?

Hi!

Well, when I drive a car, a constant bike light is more than enough to notice a biker from a long distance. Actually blinking lights are make you less visible, because of blinking frequency. First of all, a car running at high speeds can see a biker only when the light is blinking-on. When it's blink-off, it takes up to one second more to notice a biker (or less time, depends how fast the light is blinking). Second thing - when many bikers are around, the lights blink with other frequencies and this creates a distraction on a road. A driver don't see these group of bikers as a "flowing" vehicles, it actually makes it harder to notice how many of them he's seeing and how's their setting on the road.

It's actually proven by research.

Don't buy cheap light to make yourself visible, buy reflective bands.

These lights are only on the market because it's not really controlled like in the cars business. Cars have both normal lights and reflective ones.

I always wonder how bikers can ride by night without high beam torches, when it's really dark? It's like a suicide on the road. Try to drive a car in a completely dark road without your lights on.

Overall: blinking doesn't get you more visible, it works counter productive making the road less secure. If you only have a small LEDs, it's also better to turn the constant light mode.

I want to know from you on the other hand: Have you turned off your side LEDs on your bot? If not, what pattern do you use?

Yes, I've turned my side LEDs off. I've tried to set them up this way, so they can only turn on when braking (red) or standing still (green). But I guess it's not an option right now?

I'm considering blue "Meteor", because it looks like you are moving on a wheel and doesn't blink, but I guess it still can get too much attention from car drivers. They should focus on the road, not on EUCs :-P

[cg]

I couldn't agree more,

I cannot get my mind around why any one would like to have blinking light,

Even on a Christmas tree... (ducks and run for covers)

 

Here a my preference list considering light

• Steady Front and rear light, front light should be powerfull enough to illuminate the road in front of you.
• No light
• blinking horror.

[esaj]

• Steady Front and rear light, front light should be powerfull enough to illuminate the road in front of you.

Same, except the rear light must also work as brake light (brighter when braking, like in FW ).

In Finland and with bicycles (faster EUCs will be classified as bicycles after the law change), the light colors are also required to be white to front and red to back. Front light is mandatory at night or otherwise limited visibility, rear light is optional. Mandatory reflector requirements are white to front, red to back, yellow/orange to sides and yellow/orange in back and front of pedals. Starting from the beginning of next month, the bicycle law will also change to allow yellow or orange lights in side directions (before that, no sideways showing lights are legal, and even after the change, the colors cannot be anything else).

 

[Flavour]

I would really like to make my rear light brighter when braking. Any ideas?

In Ninebot you can actually set side light to be orange, so it should be ok.

It's weird no sideways are legal in your country so far. We can use them, because it's more safe than waving with your hand to remain in balance. But in practice these are very rare.

Well, you must admit the major problem is 90% of bikers can't really ride a bike and don't know any rules or signs. I've been living in the UK for a long period of time and the stupidest thing they did (right after allowing terrorist enter the country :-P ) was giving bikes priority. Bikers actually are slowing the whole street flow. You can get a bus and commute 1 hour or walk 50 minutes. It's because bikers are blocking all cars and buses. 

I'm not a fan of licenses and exams, but all bikers should definitely have a driving license. Also there should be additional courses for stupid parents, teaching children bad habits. Believe me, I've seen scary things that parents do. I'm happy I've never seen a dead accident with a bike and kid involved.

[esaj]

I would really like to make my rear light brighter when braking. Any ideas?

Not really, in Firewheel the light is controlled by the mainboard, so it's done at firmware level. But for example, if you could sense the current direction (it reverses during braking), you could use that to trigger another light to turn on, but I don't know how to design such a circuit.

In Ninebot you can actually set side light to be orange, so it should be ok.

Haven't seen Ninebots here, but I wouldn't be surprised if people use the sidelights anyway. Doubt the police are that eager to get involved, I'd expect them to have better things to do... and until the new law is passed, EUCs are illegal in public roads, no matter what kind of reflectors/lights they have. I've seen cops up close way more than a dozen times over the summer, and they never bothered to stop me, although I did have all the lights & reflectors required, rode nicely among bikes and pedestrians and wore lots of protective gear, so that could have played a role too in them leaving me alone.

It's weird no sideways are legal in your country so far. We can use them, because it's more safe than waving with your hand to remain in balance. But in practice these are very rare.

Yeah, I get that the "color coding" of lights & reflectors is meant to help car drivers and other people to observe the position and direction of the bikes easier in dark conditions, but never figured why lights illuminating sideways were prohibited.

Well, you must admit the major problem is 90% of bikers can't really ride a bike and don't know any rules or signs. I've been living in the UK for a long period of time and the stupidest thing they did (right after allowing terrorist enter the country :-P ) was giving bikes priority. Bikers actually are slowing the whole street flow. You can get a bus and commute 1 hour or walk 50 minutes. It's because bikers are blocking all cars and buses. 

I'm not a fan of licenses and exams, but all bikers should definitely have a driving license. Also there should be additional courses for stupid parents, teaching children bad habits. Believe me, I've seen scary things that parents do. I'm happy I've never seen a dead accident with a bike and kid involved.

I think most people riding bikes have no idea of half of the regulations regarding bikes and their traffic rules. Riding in pedestrian-only sidewalks is pretty common, as is riding over intersections where you're supposed to walk with the bike (although I must admit that the traffic rules for those situations weren't really clear, nowadays they've changed the "zebra"-patterning in such crossings where bikes can be ridden across), as well as not knowing when they're supposed to yield and when not. During the darkest times of the year (usually towards the end of year, before snow comes), many also ride without lights during dusk and night, and are very poorly visible. Same goes for pedestrians, I've nearly hit a walker a couple of times, because they don't use reflectors either. Where I live, the city turns the street lights off outside the downtown after midnight, and if it's overcast night (no moonlight), you really can't see anything without a light (and still people ride bikes without lights in such conditions ).

Edit: Oh, and I've seen one accident (well, not when it happened, but the aftermath), where a girl in her 20's had been hit by a car when riding her bike, and her skull was cracked open (no helmet)... pretty sure she was dead, we were passing by the place where it had happened, and the police & ambulance were already there, so we were waved to continue our way. Another accident I've seen was this summer, during the Neste Rally (WRC), an older man on a bike had been hit by a passing car, but he survived. 

[dmethvin]

EUCs should have a headlight, tail light, and reflectors built in. The rules for lights and reflectors are standard enough across the world that there should be no problem with the big manufacturers putting them on as standard equipment. It's a shame to see a clean design like the Ninebot One messed up when you have to figure out where to put lights and reflectors to make them meet local laws. I also feel like flashing lights can be counter-productive, they're just too distracting.

[Gimlet]

In the UK flashing bike lights attached to the bike are actually illegal, not that I've ever heard of anyone being prosecuted. Wish they would enforce the rules as loads of bikes break the law, but then flashing lights are better than no lights at all which many cyclists have after dark.

There are strict rules here about the lights which are required to be fitted to bikes. If you want to add flashing lights you are only allowed to attach them to your clothing or helmet.

As eucs generally speaking should be with the pedestrians on the pavement when available lights aren't normally that important. We do have to use a lot of country roads without pavements though and we now try to take the King Song with its excellent built in lights, before that we carried a powerful led torch and shone it down our own body to light ourselves up whenever a car approached.

[Jag_Rip]

 

Yes, I've turned my side LEDs off. I've tried to set them up this way, so they can only turn on when braking (red) or standing still (green). But I guess it's not an option right now?

I'm considering blue "Meteor", because it looks like you are moving on a wheel and doesn't blink, but I guess it still can get too much attention from car drivers. They should focus on the road, not on EUCs :-P

I found out that riding on top speed the meteor tries to turn with the speed too fast so that the lights dont even light up properly.
I dont mind to have the blinking disco with me when riding slow away from the streets (behold plebejan pedestrians, gaze at my colorful meteor gliding by), but I like that its almost invisible riding fast on the road.

And riding on the road every day, I can say they are distracted by the wheel good enough. I've had several slow down and roll by me to see what that this is... And that was during daytime, so the leds werent even visible.

[Flavour]

 

Not really, in Firewheel the light is controlled by the mainboard, so it's done at firmware level. But for example, if you could sense the current direction (it reverses during braking), you could use that to trigger another light to turn on, but I don't know how to design such a circuit.

I know it's controller by the board, but there are some inventions like this:
https://lucidbrake.com/
It's very expensive like for a light, but it's pretty cool.

 

I think most people riding bikes have no idea of half of the regulations regarding bikes and their traffic rules. Riding in pedestrian-only sidewalks is pretty common, as is riding over intersections where you're supposed to walk with the bike (although I must admit that the traffic rules for those situations weren't really clear, nowadays they've changed the "zebra"-patterning in such crossings where bikes can be ridden across),

We do have separate zebras and traffic lights for bicycles in Poland, so you can actually ride through them, but it doesn't matters, as there are many accidents anyway. For example when you have a green light, cars turning right also have a green light (which is normal, and a car should stop to let pedestrians and bikers go). But many bikers don't think and just come up from nowhere, when a car actually can't see them. They're running at high speed, don't look at the road and... BAM.

EUCs should have a headlight, tail light, and reflectors built in. The rules for lights and reflectors are standard enough across the world that there should be no problem with the big manufacturers putting them on as standard equipment. It's a shame to see a clean design like the Ninebot One messed up when you have to figure out where to put lights and reflectors to make them meet local laws.

I agree, lights should come as a standard. If someone doesn't need to use them, there should be a "turn off" option. I don't get it why Ninebot has got side LEDs, but no front/rear lights. Anyway that was the first thing I bought.
Many other things in EUCs seem stupid too. 
Like for example you can't really set a constant speed. When you reach the maximum it tilts you back instead of just keeping this maximum speed.
Or when you accidently go off your EUC on high speed (for example to avoid being hit by a biker), it will actually ride without you, instead of break.
And then it can hit something or someone and still go or roll around.
Fortunately for an experienced rider it doesn't happen at all, but still there are some things that should be fix and we still see new models with the same features.

In the UK flashing bike lights attached to the bike are actually illegal, not that I've ever heard of anyone being prosecuted.

Haha. As far as I remember most people used blinking lights in the UK. I guess they don't think for themselves, just look at others and do the same thing (adopters). 

but then flashing lights are better than no lights at all which many cyclists have after dark.

Sure, but I'm positive you can still turn off flashing in every light, so it should be the first idea that comes to someones mind when it's dark.

And riding on the road every day, I can say they are distracted by the wheel good enough. I've had several slow down and roll by me to see what that this is... And that was during daytime, so the leds werent even visible.

I can confirm. Many cars slow down, many people even stop me to ask what is it. And believe me, I hear "is it gas powered?" and "is it electric?" questions quite often :-)

[Michael Vu]

Steady bright white LED headlamp pointing front. Small Blinking red light towards the back. You have to understand that lights on bikes and us are not as bright or big as lights on cars. So therefore to really make sure we are seen, something like a blinking tail light is much safer than a steady one. A blinking red light does capture the attention of drivers at night over a steady one.... especially when the driver is half-paying attention to the road for whatever reason (sleepy, drunk, texting, ect.)

I don't care if the OP and other people are annoyed by it. I care about my safety to be seen by something that can kill me.

[Flavour]

Well actually it's counter productive. Especially when more than one person rides a bike (which is quite common). It's harder to tell how many bikers are there and it distracts the driver from the road, other cars and traffic lights. Actually even the worsest car drivers pay more attention to drive than most bikers.

You can take a look at some research, even with footages on YouTube. 

To be visible in a completely dark night you need only a light or a reflective band or coat etc. It's that simple.

Do you know the rule that too less is not enough and too much is bad too? If you want, you can still ride and blink, but just keep in mind that you can cause an accident by being "too visible".

[Michael Vu]

You are not understanding my point Bat. I never said anything about visibility. It's more about grabbing attention which a blinking light does. A driver can see a red light just fine in the dark, but it will be very passive for them. Its similar to talking on the phone while driving and literally not remembering the route that you just drove while you were on the phone.

Can a driver crash into something else while being distracted by my blinking light? Of course. I almost cause crashes everyday by riding on the sidewalk during the DAYTIME with cars being distracted by the EUC and not paying attention to the cars in front of them. But at least they won't crash into me. And they probably shouldn't be driving anyways if a blinking light (or other stuff) distracts them to a point to not even defensively drive when they see something out of the ordinary.

[dmethvin]

I think the primary danger of a blinking light is target fixation. Drunk drivers run into cars with their hazard lights on all the time. You want the driver to see you but not be so interested in the blinking lights that they steer towards you by reflex.

Here's another article on target fixation talking specifically about blinking lights.

[Jag_Rip]

I dont know the right expression, but a similar one used in gaming is "Powercreep" When the once best weapon is dwarfed by later better weapons until its totally useless. Same goes for lights. Remember old police movies from the 50ties? There was one slowly turning light on a police car and it was enough to make people see the cop. Nowadays you have rotating lights, LED Strobes reflective strips and still people "overlook" them because nowadays everything is blinking wildly that only remotely needs (or wants) attention.

I have nothing against a few blinky taillights on a group of bikes, but if they all go full bonkers with stobes, reflectors, LED rims and tireflys THEN its simply overkill.

[Flavour]

You are not understanding my point Bat. I never said anything about visibility. It's more about grabbing attention which a blinking light does. A driver can see a red light just fine in the dark, but it will be very passive for them. Its similar to talking on the phone while driving and literally not remembering the route that you just drove while you were on the phone.

Can a driver crash into something else while being distracted by my blinking light? Of course. I almost cause crashes everyday by riding on the sidewalk during the DAYTIME with cars being distracted by the EUC and not paying attention to the cars in front of them. But at least they won't crash into me. And they probably shouldn't be driving anyways if a blinking light (or other stuff) distracts them to a point to not even defensively drive when they see something out of the ordinary.

I did understand your point.

Your example is good, but not very accurate. When driving a car you can see many red lights - from other cars, bicycles etc. A driver avoids these red lights automatically (unconsciously). But there is a major difference. When talking over the phone, your brain forwards many of its resources to the call (about 40%), so you are less focus on the road. Noticing red lights works more like shifting gears - you do it automatically. Your subconsciousness pay attention to shifting gears, as it pay attention to avoid other vehicles - and to do that effectively, you just need to see a small red light.

When your lights blink, you see them more consciously, you are aware of it, but in the same time you are like talking over the phone: you are focused on one task at the time, so as a driver you notice a blinking bike, but don't notice other vehicles around you because of this distraction.

edit:

I think the primary danger of a blinking light is target fixation. Drunk drivers run into cars with their hazard lights on all the time. You want the driver to see you but not be so interested in the blinking lights that they steer towards you by reflex.

Here's another article on target fixation talking specifically about blinking lights.

This is similar to what I knew about it, I just didn't know it's called "target fixation". But it definitely confirms what I'm talking about - blinking lights make a driver too much focused on them.

I don't know how many of you drives a car on a daily basis. I do and I knew it from the beginning that blinking lights are a mess. Then I googled some researches that confirms it. When you drive a car every day and you are an excellent driver, you will just know how to act as a pedestrian or cyclist. The most cyclist and pedestrians mistakes are because they don't have a driver license or are very bad drivers and don't think as a driver when riding a bike or going somewhere by foot.