Lefteris Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 Oh only decor.. Well anyway I prefer the wheel to be one big good looking plastic instead of "kang" cosmetics ๐๐ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borg666 Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 35 minutes ago, Lefteris said: I have a bad taste for these, I don't know why but I've been on the Kingsong side for quite some time๏ปฟ๏ปฟ. I wanted๏ปฟ๏ปฟ๏ปฟ๏ปฟ๏ปฟ๏ปฟ๏ปฟ๏ปฟ a nb z series last year but after riding the KS16S for a couple of times, reading about it, watching videos and last my friend got injured the other day๏ปฟ in the Z10, my mind is set on buying a kingsong. It's just how well it behaves, its like the company has really tested it on real circumstances and programmed behaviour procedures on the b๏ปฟoa๏ปฟr๏ปฟd๏ปฟ๏ปฟ๏ปฟ๏ปฟ.๏ปฟ I can't p๏ปฟu๏ปฟ๏ปฟ๏ปฟt it into words.. I always highly recommend the KS-16S, which used to be my main wheel in nearly every circumstances: Daily commuting 2x 11km, longer "bicycle" tours incl. off road and single trails, going to the shopping mall, cruising through the City, toddling around and everything.ย I'm going to upgrade to an 18", but willย definitelyย keep my 16S anyway, because of it's universal use, love that wheel!ย ...and it has a round shape and is availiable in white as well.ย 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tenofnine Posted April 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) Soย because no one else has posted this yet I made a little collage, the white version has been talked about but I haven't seen pics (I think). The V5 and V5F in white, I personally prefer the black but the white is lovely as well. Man I love this design, still my favorite from an aesthetic point of view. And @Riiย if you haven't seen the trick videos by Hirsute or NonStopNeal with the V5F they are highly recommended. There's also videos of this guy who does pirouettes on a V5F for like 3-4 minutes, it's crazy.ย ย Edited April 19, 2019 by tenofnine 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Lefteris said: I recently wanted to discuss this about the EU, I understand the extra cost for Tax but still I'm a member of the NYC Telegram riders and we've discussed a bit and the math about the prices doesn't add up. Resellers / distributors in Europe have bumped the prices up to a new high. Like plus tax plus +30% for the fun of profiting off people like us. There are ways to find wheels on better price in Europe but still online stores have unbelievable prices! (see the known UK site with YouTube presence among others). Not that I really know about running a business, but I guess it depends on a lot of factors. A large reseller who sells a lot of wheels can sell them cheaper, because they don't need to get as much margin per wheel sold. The cost structure would be something like: -Reseller buys theย wheels from a factory at price X per wheel -Add shipping costย -Add import duties -Add margin -Add VAT A part of the margin goes to pay the wages (even in a single person company, the owner probably pays himself something to be able to live, which is then separately income-taxed, plus social security paymentsย ), rent for office and/or warehouse, tools and equipment, utilities,ย insurances, marketing, accounting... probably something I forget.ย The profit left from the margin after these is then taxed, and what's left is the net profit. I doubt there's much left from a wheel sold at 1000โฌ after these. Of course tax-wise there's a lot going on, like VAT-redemptions for stuff/services bought/sold etc. Simplified a lot, if the company was run by a single person without any employees, and he wanted to get, say, 2000โฌ net income per month, he'd probably need to pay himself about 3000โฌ per month in gross (actually it will costย more for the company than that, 3kโฌ would be the gross income of the person, the typical company costs per person is roughly 1.2-1.5 x the gross income of the employee in Finland). Pulling numbers out of thin air, say the other "fixed" costs (rents, etc) would be 2000โฌ (I've never really looked at office/warehouse rent prices or such, so this is just a guess). That would mean 5000โฌ per month in margins to get to 0% profit. If for each sold wheel, let's say 1000โฌ net price and 1240โฌ with 24% VAT, a 100โฌ margin was got, (s)he'd have to sell on average 50 such wheels every month. Probably I've over-estimated the fixed costs for this hypothetical small company, but still, even getting one 1000โฌ wheel sold for each day of the monthย all year aroundย isn't going to be that easy. This is a relatively pricey niche-product, not something that people buy on a moments whim. Of course this is in a country with higher taxes and VAT, the numbers can change dramatically from one country to another, plus I pulled most of them from a hat, so they shouldn't be considered anything but a simple example. Edited April 19, 2019 by esaj 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) @Riiย whichever wheel you choose, make sure it has a good trolley handle.ย DO NOT buy a wheel without a trolley and compare trolleys carefully.ย The ones that look like an after thought can get damaged during a tumble, because they are exposed, and unattached at one end.ย Adding a trolley yourself is aย bitย lot rubbish. DO NOT spend 1000 euro on the dinosaur Ninebot.ย Btw Most King Songs are a shameless copy of the Ninebot looks anyway so you have no reason to buy a Ninebot. My dealer https://eunicycles.eu/en/ Good prices, good service, Europe based. Edited April 19, 2019 by Smoother 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtlasP Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Lefteris said: Kingsong wheels have great build and stability. You will never see one behaving strange.๏ปฟย ... Did we already forget about how the latest firmware has been causing terrifying dips on the flagship KS18X(L) prompting many enthusiasts to have to do an unsupported firmware downgrade (which is only doable on an Android phone)? Lots of chatter about this with the NYC E-Riders group the past couple weeks. King Song certainly has nice build qualityย but they're definitely not immune to issues. (I had almost pulled the trigger on a KS18XL before deciding on something else [unrelated to/before this issue came to light], and man am I glad I didn't get one right in the midst of the current situation or perhaps the issue coupled with my inexperience with the new/bigger wheelย might have landed me on my face.) Of course it will probably (hopefully?) get fixed and the KS18X(L) is likely stillย a great wheel, but I would stay clear of such blanket statements/endorsements as each brandย has had its issues over time. Edited April 19, 2019 by AtlasP 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 7 hours ago, Rywokast said: ive been so tempted since its introduction to buy one of these guys lol... i find it very attractive (i know, im in the minority) andย love the shape and lack of any pads or bumps.. not to mention its exceptional performance and specs Me too!ย "Luckily" they are so expensive here I'm not tempted. I refuse to check the Ali priceย But I certainly want one 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) Well, my fleet is now complete, for a whileย If that may help: The GF finds that she has issues with the padding of the V10F as her legs are reverse bowed, she has to stand at the outer edge of the pedals(!). The V10F feels exactly as a more stable V5F and she had no problems riding it at the first try... Edited April 19, 2019 by pico c 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 Ohhh! One thing these 3 wheels have in common: they are QUIET... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefteris Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 8 hours ago, Smoother said: @Riiย whichever wheel you choose, make sure it has a good trolley handle.ย DO NOT buy a wheel without a trolley and compare trolleys carefully.ย The ones that look like an after thought can get damaged during a tumble, because they are exposed, and unattached at one end.ย Adding a trolley yourself is aย bitย lot rubbish. DO NOT spend 1000 euro on the dinosaur Ninebot.ย Btw Most King Songs are a shameless copy of the Ninebot looks anyway so you have no reason to buy a Ninebot. My dealer https://eunicycles.eu/en/ Good prices, good service, Europe based. Checked your dealer, he is quite reasonable for European website. Well done! But still i found ks16s a bit cheaper, and i'm -200โฌ out, about 15 days to a month to buy one! ย 4 hours ago, AtlasP said: Did we already forget about how the latest firmware has been causing terrifying dips on the flagship KS18X(L) prompting many enthusiasts to have to do an unsupported firmware downgrade (which is only doable on an Android phone)? Lots of chatter about this with the NYC E-Riders group the past couple weeks. King Song certainly has nice build qualityย but they're definitely not immune to issues. (I had almost pulled the trigger on a KS18XL before deciding on something else [unrelated to/before this issue came to light], and man am I glad I didn't get one right in the midst of the current situation or perhaps the issue coupled with my inexperience with the new/bigger wheelย might have landed me on my face.) Of course it will probably (hopefully?) get fixed and the KS18X(L) is likely stillย a great wheel, but I would stay clear of such blanket statements/endorsements as each brandย has had its issues over time. It's one Kingsong, but still the KS16S has proven again and again that it's the best wheel all around. Problematic firmwares is a thing that until now KS wheels didn't have, well now one of its line has one.. come one.. our wheels are experimental science! Don't forget that ย ย 3 hours ago, pico said: Ohhh! One thing these 3 wheels have in common: they are QUIET... About the V10F that i've had the change to use the other day, not only quite, it's like it not there, it's like it is really switched off! Amazing feeling on the wheel, you stride like it's water, a bit difficult to stop if you speed up on sport mode, but still on the relaxed mode it's the best i've tested so far.!! Plus quite beautiful (cc @Rii if you can manage get a V10F it "is" amazing) 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post esaj Posted April 19, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, AtlasP said: Did we already forget about how the latest firmware has been causing terrifying dips on the flagship KS18X(L) prompting many enthusiasts to have to do an unsupported firmware downgrade (which is only doable on an Android phone)? Lots of chatter about this with the NYC E-Riders group the past couple weeks. King Song certainly has nice build qualityย but they're definitely not immune to issues. (I had almost pulled the trigger on a KS18XL before deciding on something else [unrelated to/before this issue came to light], and man am I glad I didn't get one right in the midst of the current situation or perhaps the issue coupled with my inexperience with the new/bigger wheelย might have landed me on my face.) Of course it will probably (hopefully?) get fixed and the KS18X(L) is likely stillย a great wheel, but I would stay clear of such blanket statements/endorsements as each brandย has had its issues over time. As has been discussed numerous times before in the forums, any wheel can fail at any time,ย no wheel or manufacturer is to be trusted 100% at all timesย (and numerous variations of this). We're being held from falling forwards/backwards by an intricate set up of electronics, a battery and an electric motor. Failure in any of these parts means immediate crash, and unfortunately, all of the parts can have (unforeseen) design mistakes, misbehave or fail at any given moment. Thus the general recommendation of wearing safety gear at all times. Far more often than not, the reason behind a crash can be traced to a rider mistake or environmental conditions, however, there's a (far too) high number of issues that have been traced back to design mistakes. While it was usually worse for the "no-name" small manufacturers (think a lot of dead boards / batteries / at least a couple of battery fires), of the top of my head (correct me if there's wrong information here, and also probably there are failure cases that I don't even remember anymore), these are the "big" cases I remember for the "big name" manufacturers: Kingsong Early KS's (before they even had a 16" model) had a lot of issues with overheating, luckily the wheels did have warnings for this, so riders were warned and could stop before the mosfets fried, around 2015, not sure if it was only the (old style, "tall alien-face") 18" -models, or also the 14" models KS16A's are rare, but if memory serves, the first version had issues like overheating, the B came out so fast that A's are very rare KS18's have had mainboard issues at least in the A, AY, AY+ models? A batch of KS16B's from early 2016 had a casting failure in the pedals (apparently air bubbles in the cast), causing fractures and on a few occasions, total breaking of the pedal on either side KS18L's (don't know if it also affects the XL) has (apparently still on-going)ย issue with the motor disengagement sensor -setup in the trolley (only happens while trolleying, not while riding?), before a few firmware updates were made, this could actually cause the motor to lock up totally (but no mosfets dying, ie. apparently the PWM was still running) and heat up the batteries, which is pretty dangerous Currently it seems that if the issue occurs, the firmware resets automatically, but it can still occur? No idea of the dips AtlasP is mentioning above, a new issue with KS18L/XL? I haven't been following the forums that much... Some earlier models had axles that broke over time (I don't remember if it was Gotway or KS or both)? On the bright side, KS16S's and B/C's were (and probably still are) the less defective wheels in general, at least the latest defect stats I saw, KS16S was leading with a little over 1% requiring warranty maintenance/replacement parts, whereas for many models of other manufacturers, the numbers can be as high as 10-20% or over. Still, as the above list shows, KS isย not immune to mistakes and weird problems. And probably the defect statistics are outdated by now. ย Ninebot In 2015, a large amount of Ninebot One E's/E+'s (maybe C/C+'s also?) wereย brickedย by a faulty firmware upgrade through their app As memory serves, the faulty version wasn't available but for maybe about 24 hours, yet a good number of riders had updated their wheels, killing them completely Ninebot P was a total fiasco, and was pulled from the market inย monthsย after its release, and never returned Battery fires,ย although rare, have been reported with E/E+'s, if memory serves, these happened during charging (faulty charger/BMS?) Ninebot One's (all models) mainboard design has been questioned by electronics professionals Although somewhat rare, there have been dead mosfets (gate voltage problems?), burned phase current sense resistors, I know of a case where the board died just by slight braking on a downhill, despite working without a hitch for four-figure number of kilometers before At least the earlier One's didn't use actual gate drivers, but a charge pump ("bootstrap")ย -setup in the mosfet driving circuitry, this saves maybe $1-2 per board in manufacturing, of which I've heard critical thoughts aboutย from professional electronics designers (more than one) Ninebot Z-series has a battery drain problem when turned off (something's drawing far too much current than it should when the wheel's supposedly off), the severity of this depends on whether you have to leave the wheel stored for a longer while (like over winter here, which might mean ~6 months) Ninebot is probably the biggest player in the EUC-niche and has deep pockets and R&D budget (nowadays), yet even their products are not immune to issues. ย Gotway Earlier models (up toย early MSuper V3's or so) had a number of issues, ranging from more-or-less random cut outs from out-of-the-blue to dying boards Some V3's died if you tried to take off from behind a twig in off-road, EUC Extreme has a video of this (or was that a Monster?) The different issues were at times so numerous that it lead to "funny" situations, apparently Gotway was changing the motor/mainboard designs so often thatย they couldn't themselves figure out which mainboard design would work with which motor,ย like the case where they couldn't produce a new mainboard for EUC Extreme because they didn't know what would work with the motor his wheel had (but this seems like a thing of the past) This timeframe (about 2014-2016, maybe early 2017 on some cases) is the reason for the "bad" reputation of Gotway Somewhere around 2016/2017, the motor powers had got so high, that the currents could overheat and melt the motor connectors/wiring, leading to a number of dead boards (the motor phases would short circuit, causing a bridge shoot-through in the inverter half-bridges), usually when climbing steep hills Some earlier models had axles that broke over time (I don't remember if it was Gotway or KS or both)? Gotway manufacturing/quality assurance still is somewhat dubious, but they have improved a lot over the last couple of years. There's no doubt that Gotway is (and always has been) the speed/power -king, and most of the issues seem to be a thing of the past. ย Inmotion Only case that comes to mind is the (very serious) case of lacking waterproofing on early V10's last yearย that lead to the batteries catching fire by themselves There's a thread about a battery fire in the Inmotion-section that started by itself in the middle of the night, the wheel wasn't even being charged As far as I know, Inmotion did a recall (at least in US) of all the affected wheels / shipped protective casings for the batteries for DIY install Inmotion's quality record in general seems to be good, except for the early V10's. I don't recall ever seeing much DOA reports or failures during riding, but I haven't been following on Inmotion that much anyway. ย As above shows,ย no manufacturer is perfect.ย Despite KS being the "lead" in quality control (at least on the surface, and at least on the current KS16-line) doesn't mean that their wheels won't fail, and despite past problems with Gotways doesn't mean that their wheels are going to explode in your face if you look at them the wrong way. It doesn't take but a single faulty component to cause a serious crash in the middle of the ride, and that could happen to any wheel at any time, soย gear up.ย And never ever leave your wheel charging while you're sleeping or away. ย EDIT: Reading this back myself, it does give a bit negative image of the wheels in general (maybe). Keep in mind that vast majority of riders won't encounter any hardware problems and vast majority of crashes are inexperience, rider mistake or unforeseen environmental issues. Likely the amount of crashes caused by actual hardware failure is the minority of crashes. Typically, if the hardware fails, it will do so very soonย after getting the wheel out of the box, if you've been riding yours for a month or two in varying conditions, the hardware is most likely just fine. Personally I've had a Firewheel mainboard die on me (likely the step-down circuitry failed and fried the MCU) and crashed due to a wrong kind ofย BMS cutting all power in downhill (my own fault as I didn't know better back then and the guy who built the batteries for me had never worked with devices having regenerative braking, on the other hand, it did point me to the path of starting to learn electronics, which I think is a good thing in the end, I now design my own circuits, and was recently hired to do some professional work in the field on the side of my actual day jobย ).ย Edited April 19, 2019 by esaj 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefteris Posted April 19, 2019 Share Posted April 19, 2019 12 minutes ago, esaj said: As has been discussed numerous times [...] Esaj is better in explaining anything about EUCs, period! Thank you for unwrapping this! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gotmotion2016 Posted April 20, 2019 Share Posted April 20, 2019 (edited) Beside this, I wonder if there are some communities around Europe orย dutch EUC riders? ย Yes Rii, in Holland there is an active communitie off euc riders. See the link for some idea of our group rides. ย There is a dutch shop/seller to in holland. ย And if you ask the communitie, there is a chance of buying a cheep 1st wheel. Most of us are soon bored with the short distance of wheels as the E+ ore wheels like the E+. If you have any question, vraag het gewoon. Het is echt zonde om voor je eerste wiel veel geld uit te geven. Vaak is een 2de of 3de hansje prima om het op te leren, en te kijken of het iets voor je is. Dan kan je daarna altijd iets meer uitgeven voor een wiel met meer snelheid, en voor meer kilometers. Is tenminste de ervaring van de meeste rijders. ย Edited April 20, 2019 by gotmotion2016 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rii Posted April 23, 2019 Author Share Posted April 23, 2019 On 4/20/2019 at 3:05 AM, gotmotion2016 said: Beside this, I wonder if there are some communities around Europe orย dutch EUC riders? ย Yes Rii, in Holland there is an active communitie off euc riders. See the link for some idea of our group rides. ย There is a dutch shop/seller to in holland. ย And if you ask the communitie, there is a chance of buying a cheep 1st wheel. Most of us are soon bored with the short distance of wheels as the E+ ore wheels like the E+. If you have any question, vraag het gewoon. Het is echt zonde om voor je eerste wiel veel geld uit te geven. Vaak is een 2de of 3de hansje prima om het op te leren, en te kijken of het iets voor je is. Dan kan je daarna altijd iets meer uitgeven voor een wiel met meer snelheid, en voor meer kilometers. Is tenminste de ervaring van de meeste rijders. ย Bedankt zeg ! Waardeer ik enorm! ย Had al een bericht gestuurd voordat ik dit onderste las maar ik zal er nog een berichtje achteraanย doen ย Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vdhaeyere Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 Amazon.fr will have a promotion tomorrow 27/4/2019 on the InMotion v10 (current price 1299) starting at 6:19am 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vdhaeyere Posted April 26, 2019 Share Posted April 26, 2019 One 2nd hand available here https://www.2ememain.be/vรฉlos/vรฉlos/monocycles/segway-ninebot-one-e-518954702.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumulus Libre Posted April 28, 2019 Share Posted April 28, 2019 (edited) hey ,ย mijn vrouw en ik rijden al een tijdje op de KS18L en V10f , ik op beide wielenย zij vnl op de V10f , en oorspronkelijk heeft ze leren rijden op de KS16S , ze is heel tevreden over de V10f , in feite over alle drie de vermelde wielen,...ย Zelf ben ik voorstander van de V10f en KS18L , de KS16S vond ik een beetje te zenuwachtig / twitchy, maar sommigen zullen dat dan weer een plus punt vinden, hangt er duidelijk van af wat je wilt doen met je wiel.. voor ons is dat leuk gaan rijden ook offroad als we de mogelijkheid hebben, carven, en een smooth ride, een commuter voor in ย stad.. beiden wielen doen dit perfect,ย succes met je zoektocht !ย groetjes CL ย Whoops forgot that this is an english thread since I saw a few dutch comments on it.. my apologies, the translation is below my wife and I ride for a while on the KS18L and the V10F , I ride both of them she mainly the V10f , she learnt to ride on the KS16S , she is very happy about the V10F and rides most of the time on the v10f , but she's happy with all three wheels, ... ย myself I love the V10f and the KS18L , the KS16s was a bit to nimble and nervous to my likes, I was a newbie at the time, and preferred the smoother ride of the V10f and the KS18L.. All depends on what you want to do with your wheel, for us this meant both on and offroad, smooth ride, nice for carving and a good city commuter with enough speed and torque , bot of the wheels are just doing that, after 4 months mainly have ridden the KS18L I am back on the V10f for a while, immediately I feel the magic carpet where I fell in love with in the first place... ย but you can't go wrong with any of the above mentioned wheels, good luck with your search,ย cheers cL Edited April 28, 2019 by Cumulus Libre 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rii Posted April 29, 2019 Author Share Posted April 29, 2019 Thanks all ! ย Appreciate a lot.ย I'm looking forward to a KS14D/S white version now.ย 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefteris Posted April 29, 2019 Share Posted April 29, 2019 So the color must be white, as you previously mentioned. I think you will change your mind if you see for example something like the matte black KS16S ย ย Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.