Falling on Z10

[takeda]

Well, 

I have 400 km+ on E1, 1200+ km on KS16S, 300Km on Z10 experience,

Today was a bad day (but a good bad day in the same time, I think I'm not hurt).

A small bump in a street made me fell off the wheel.

My ego is hurt mostly and I hope I won't wake up to any underlying/hidden injuries.

I kissed the ground, thankfully everything seems in place.

What I am thinking is that this bump would not throw me off If I was on KS16S.

Someday I will test the very same spot on KS16S but as for Z10, I am not riding this s**t anymore, at least not in the city.

It's not rideable except the terrain is absolutely flat, and when flat is a nice experience, but dangerous otherwise.

 

 

[Marty Backe]

Glad you're not hurt 

But your comments regarding the Z10 seem strange. Almost makes me think that you're not riding it at the proper air pressure for your weight. Is the wheel too bouncy?

How exactly is it not rideable for you? I have no difficulties riding it on any road/trail conditions. People usually complain about not liking how it turns, but you are the first that says it's unrideable unless on flat ground 

[takeda]

36 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Glad you're not hurt 

But your comments regarding the Z10 seem strange. Almost makes me think that you're not riding it at the proper air pressure for your weight. Is the wheel too bouncy?

How exactly is it not rideable for you? I have no difficulties riding it on any road/trail conditions. People usually complain about not liking how it turns, but you are the first that says it's unrideable unless on flat ground 

Well, I am heavy, 115Kgr.

 

I don't know the pressure I am riding it, I use it as arrived and yes it's very very bouncy, the tire is rock solid. 

Should I lower the pressure? Would that help?

At first I could not turn the wheel but then I learned to do so and it's a joy.

BUT when you ride a street like this one in the photo the wheel goes out of control.

Also on pavement where the tiles are uneven, ks16s is ridable, z10 is not. It tips on the side. 

Ian from Speedy feet made the same observation. Also he noted that inflating  helps with steering. I guess not with stability.

Also I got once the wobble at 40+ km and scared the shit out of me. Happily didn't fall then, managed to brake.

Unless this behaviour gets somehow better (maybe with less air pressure?) the wheel is dangerous from my point of view.

 

 

[Arbolest]

Well geez, I'm sorry you had such a bad experience... The one time I got to ride a Z10, a group of us took it up on some mountain trails, and it didn't seem to have too many issues other than braking going downhill... At least no real issues stability-wise, and some of those trails were um... technical xD

Anyway, the Z10 was an absolute joy when I was on it, so I would definitely suggest playing around with your tire pressure a little bit and see if you can find something a little bit more stable for you!

[Marty Backe]

32 minutes ago, Petros Makris said:

Well, I am heavy, 115Kgr.

 

I don't know the pressure I am riding it, I use it as arrived and yes it's very very bouncy, the tire is rock solid. 

Should I lower the pressure? Would that help?

At first I could not turn the wheel but then I learned to do so and it's a joy.

BUT when you ride a street like this one in the photo the wheel goes out of control.

Also on pavement where the tiles are uneven, ks16s is ridable, z10 is not. It tips on the side. 

Ian from Speedy feet made the same observation. Also he noted that inflating  helps with steering. I guess not with stability.

Also I got once the wobble at 40+ km and scared the shit out of me. Happily didn't fall then, managed to brake.

Unless this behaviour gets somehow better (maybe with less air pressure?) the wheel is dangerous from my point of view.

 

 

The consensus (among those of us who talk about such things) is that every owner must experiment with the tire pressure. It can make a huge difference in how the wheel handles.

Rather than me suggesting a given tire pressure, I'd rather that you experiment.

Maybe this video will help (or not)

 

[Marty Backe]

BTW, it seems to be a common trait of some owners, where they take the wheel out of the box and proceed to ride without checking the tire. This is a big no-no IMHO. Sometimes the tires come with the pressure dangerously  low (risk of tire/rim damage) or too high (uncomfortable or poor handling).

Our wheels require very little maintenance but one item they do require is to maintain a proper tire pressure.

Good luck.

[eddiemoy]

1 hour ago, Petros Makris said:

Well, I am heavy, 115Kgr.

 

I don't know the pressure I am riding it, I use it as arrived and yes it's very very bouncy, the tire is rock solid. 

Should I lower the pressure? Would that help?

At first I could not turn the wheel but then I learned to do so and it's a joy.

BUT when you ride a street like this one in the photo the wheel goes out of control.

Also on pavement where the tiles are uneven, ks16s is ridable, z10 is not. It tips on the side. 

Ian from Speedy feet made the same observation. Also he noted that inflating  helps with steering. I guess not with stability.

Also I got once the wobble at 40+ km and scared the shit out of me. Happily didn't fall then, managed to brake.

Unless this behaviour gets somehow better (maybe with less air pressure?) the wheel is dangerous from my point of view.

 

 

Due to the size of the tire and the fact we are riding one wheel, irregularities tend to “pull” the wheel much more than on the smaller tire wheels.  Some will argue if you can see the road issue to avoid it.  I also chose to not buy or ride it because of this weird “feature”.  

Wind already affects our riding.  @Marty Backe should be aware of how little things affect our riding.  Just holding a stick at the wrong angle and the wind hitting it is enough to knock us off if we are not prepared.  Even when prepared, there is only so much you can push back on.  With the 4” round tire, when you hit stuff off center, it will change your direction.   This can definitely throw you off or even set off some wobbles and if you are going fast enough, high speed wobbles.  Have seen enough crash videos involving the z10 to see that behavior.  

‘It is almost like catching a pedal on something   You will fall immediately.  

 

[takeda]

2 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Due to the size of the tire and the fact we are riding one wheel, irregularities tend to “pull” the wheel much more than on the smaller tire wheels.  Some will argue if you can see the road issue to avoid it.  I also chose to not buy or ride it because of this weird “feature”.  

 Wind already affects our riding.  @Marty Backe should be aware of how little things affect our riding.  Just holding a stick at the wrong angle and the wind hitting it is enough to knock us off if we are not prepared.  Even when prepared, there is only so much you can push back on.  With the 4” round tire, when you hit stuff off center, it will change your direction.   This can definitely throw you off or even set off some wobbles and if you are going fast enough, high speed wobbles.  Have seen enough crash videos involving the z10 to see that behavior.  

  

I will try measuring current pressure and steaming of some air to lower pressure.

But of my experience with the other wheels, I don't expect Z10 to change so much.

 

It will still pull hard to the low side of an irregularity and what I also know well is that people will keep a false belief due to fear of buyers remorse (Marty this is not for you but for some people I know having actually the same problems with Z10 and still claiming the wheel is nice etc).

To state the obvious, I did not start this thread as a generic "Let's hate the Z10" thread but to explain my thoughts mostly on safety and hear other people's opinions.

 

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

Due to the size of the tire and the fact we are riding one wheel, irregularities tend to “pull” the wheel much more than on the smaller tire wheels.  Some will argue if you can see the road issue to avoid it.  I also chose to not buy or ride it because of this weird “feature”.  

Wind already affects our riding.  @Marty Backe should be aware of how little things affect our riding.  Just holding a stick at the wrong angle and the wind hitting it is enough to knock us off if we are not prepared.  Even when prepared, there is only so much you can push back on.  With the 4” round tire, when you hit stuff off center, it will change your direction.   This can definitely throw you off or even set off some wobbles and if you are going fast enough, high speed wobbles.  Have seen enough crash videos involving the z10 to see that behavior.  

‘It is almost like catching a pedal on something   You will fall immediately.  

 

I can certainly agree with you regarding the Z10 tire potentially throwing a person off balance. If he's trying to ride that road in the picture at high-speed, then good luck. But I wouldn't ride through that with any wheel at high-speed.

It just seems strange to consider the Z10 only a fair-street (flat and smooth) wheel. Maybe I'm out of touch with how non-Californians ride wheels 

[takeda]

7 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I can certainly agree with you regarding the Z10 tire potentially throwing a person off balance. If he's trying to ride that road in the picture at high-speed, then good luck. But I wouldn't ride through that with any wheel at high-speed.

It just seems strange to consider the Z10 only a fair-street (flat and smooth) wheel. Maybe I'm out of touch with how non-Californians ride wheels 

I fell with about 20km/h (estimation). 

Also the road in the picture is like breakfast for ks16s vs Z10 at the same speed.

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, Petros Makris said:

I will try measuring current pressure and steaming of some air to lower pressure.

But of my experience with the other wheels, I don't expect Z10 to change so much.

 

It will still pull hard to the low side of an irregularity and what I also know well is that people will keep a false belief due to fear of buyers remorse (Marty this is not for you but for some people I know having actually the same problems with Z10 and still claiming the wheel is nice etc).

To state the obvious, I did not start this thread as a generic "Let's hate the Z10" thread but to explain my thoughts mostly on safety and hear other people's opinions.

 

Good to know 

I can agree that the Z10 tire will pull left/right, but I can also say that this pulling can be very bad at lower pressures.

When I'm riding my Z10 on crappy roads I'm not cruising very fast, so it's not really any issue. I've probably just adapted to the wheel and ride it based on conditions. I know you didn't say that it applied to me, but I still want to reiterate that the Z10 is a fabulous wheel for me. Unfortunately, sometimes a wheel will never settle right with some riders, and that is unfortunate.

Sorry that the Z10 is not working out for you. But please, do try riding the wheel with low, medium, and high pressures. The Z10 tire is unique in this regards compared to other wheels.

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, Petros Makris said:

I fell with about 20km/h (estimation). 

Also the road in the picture is like breakfast for ks16s vs Z10 at the same speed.

I look forward to hearing how the wheel handles at different tire pressures. Hope maybe there is some improvement for you.

[takeda]

41 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I look forward to hearing how the wheel handles at different tire pressures. Hope maybe there is some improvement for you.

Let's wait a week  I am under repair ...

I agree that you get to know the wheel, and what happened to me is that I fell in a flat road with just one f*cking bump you could not see.

So I was unprepared.

As I said in the first post, I just have the feeling that ks16s would save me the fall under the same exact circumstances

 

I will also try the very same spot with ks

[eddiemoy]

This is what I’m trying to describe.  Below is a picture from the front of the Z10.  The green is the contact patch.  The red is the rest of the tire.  They don’t touch the road unless turning.  If you can imagine hitting the red part on a surface crack,it will turn the wheel like hitting a pedal on something.  This should only happen with immovable objects.  Pebbles should have little effect I would imagine.  I think folks just need to understand some things affect this wheel a lot more because the red sections are so much bigger.  More chance to catch on something.

 

[stephen]

We'll for me i always ride at lower tyre pressures it's how i like it or more how i need it for UK road conditions, i tried the z10 when it first arrived at the pressure it came at, yes i won't say it didn't go sideways when you travel along a crack it also does that at lower pressure but not as much , from my experience it doesn't bother me anymore, my body/legs have adjusted to how i respond and now i just ride though it i don't know how but i do, you could say things about different wheels ,the z10 handles bumps good and the pedals stay flat my msx which i love when i go over bump going uphill sort of bumps me forward cause i have it on soft mode , the z10 handles that situation better cause the pedals stay flatter,,, that's cause i always ride soft mode and low tyre pressure, i think you've just got to learn how the Z10 handles and play with pressures and adjust your riding style to it .. The Z10 is an amazing wheel over any terrain ,,, i love lower tyre pressure always have 😁,,, different riding styles for different wheels and knowing what good points and bad points some wheels have and behave differently,

If all wheels handled the same you'd only ever need one @Marty Backewould have saved some money

[Michael Tucker]

I loved AND hated my Z10. Loved the way it looked and loved the way it handled at low (10mph) speed. It felt very solid both on the hand and under-foot. It took much effort to master at high speed over rough pavement. I liked that it took effort to look cool on it by taming wobbles and lean-turns. But its weight/trolley handle, high-speed cap and hill performance were terrible. It looks like it can do 80mph, and feels like it can do 80mph, and when I pull up to an intersection people think I can do 80mph, but the reality of this little machine is a let down. Easily beaten by an MSX, KS18L, Monster maybe even a Rockwheel! I sold mine!!!

[Planemo]

When my uses Z6 arrived the first thing I did was check the tyre pressure. It had 10psi so clearly the previous rider liked it at that. A quick ride showed it to be super comfy and turned fine at low speed (I never checked high speed) but out of curiosity I have put it up to 20psi (I am about 90kg) and will see what its like.

The tubeless tyre is as tough as old boots so I am not too concerned with running such low pressures. Would never get away with 10psi in a tubed tyre with their skinny carcasses.

 

[takeda]

It appears I damaged heavily a tenton in my shoulder, so at least 2 weeks recovery. I can't move my damn arm.

Considering the fall and my face touching the ground (and no helmet [usually I wear one, yesterday I was fealling comfy) I am lucky.

New safety rules from now on.

First thing to do when on a wheel again to test the very same spot on ks16 with armor :-)

[enaon]

I wish for a fast/solid recovery Petro, sad to hear that your monster misbehaved.

I don't think tire pressure was the issue, I rode that same z10 few days ago when we met for the Greek gathering and I weight 75kgr, it scared me too, I loved it, I could dance on it at low speed, but high speed was a different set of physics all together from what I am used to. 

Are there many  that drive both a z10 and a normal wheel like the 16s at the same time, both as primary wheels? Was an adjustment period needed for you, or does the z10 feels like any other wheel?

[Lefteris]

@Petros Makris

It's the first time I see you without a helmet..

@enaon

I don't think that he needed an adjustment period from how he strolled the other day its not that. It was just bud luck I think.

anyway we all should reconsider our safety measures

[Unventor]

51 minutes ago, Petros Makris said:

It appears I damaged heavily a tenton in my shoulder, so at least 2 weeks recovery. I can't move my damn arm.

Considering the fall and my face touching the ground (and no helmet [usually I wear one, yesterday I was fealling comfy) I am lucky.

New safety rules from now on.

First thing to do when on a wheel again to test the very same spot on ks16 with armor :-)

Under the safety gear you find my post of my crash history. I dislocated my shoulder. But you will also see why I choose to ride fully geared in most cases, unless it is less than 1 KM in a know area I ride very often. 

As for dynamics of you Z10 that is why this wheel is often referred to a love or hate feeling. I have only tested it briefly like 30-60min at low speed.  It felt VERY different if that is a bad or good thing I cannot say. But it is definitely not like my V8 or KS18L behavior, nor would I expect it to behave like an other EUC after reading feedback and reviews on this forum. 

[LanghamP]

If you take the depth of a pneumatic tire (wheel rim to tire crown), and halve it, that's approximately the biggest bump you can take without doing anything special. You can straight-leg bumps that size all day long, although you might have speed wobbles if you hit the bump off kilter.

Bigger bumps than that require suspension, which might just be your knees allowing the wheel to move upward. You may simply choose to straight leg everything while avoiding all bumps (which is how I usually ride).

 

[Vanzen]

13 hours ago, eddiemoy said:

This is what I’m trying to describe.  Below is a picture from the front of the Z10.  The green is the contact patch.  The red is the rest of the tire.  They don’t touch the road unless turning.  If you can imagine hitting the red part on a surface crack,it will turn the wheel like hitting a pedal on something.  This should only happen with immovable objects.  Pebbles should have little effect I would imagine.  I think folks just need to understand some things affect this wheel a lot more because the red sections are so much bigger.  More chance to catch on something.

 

Funny cause its not the actual tire ... I wish it was so ... The actual tire has a central groove, that I think is the reason for the Z erratic behaviour, its the groove that "follows" road's irregularities ...