N00b: Z10 VS 18XL and where to buy?

[Windjammer]

Hey!

 

I'm about to pull the trigger on my first wheel and I'm looking for best in class/most bang for buck combined with best looking. Both equally important. 

I got a couple of more or less hopeless subjective questions I would like your input on:

1. Is the Ninebot Z10 the best looking wheel? I had decided on Kingsong 18XL until I saw the Z10. Should I still get the 18XL because it is so much better in every other aspect than design?

2. Guess no one gets away with not paying tax on stuff from Aliexpress anymore? Still cheaper even with VAT (18XL - €1900 vs €2300) but then there's the wait... seems like most deliveries take around 60 days. That's crazy long for something you want yesterday. Thoughts? I'm in Sweden so still have to buy from another country.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Ronko]

4 hours ago, Windjammer said:

Should I still get the 18XL because it is so much better in every other aspect than design?

To me that answers your question.. it is better in EVERY other aspect!  If the design is that important to you then go for the Z10, but if you want best all round then it has to be the KS18XL.

With the ks18 you can get a pretty good protective cover from https://www.roll.nz/ which should help protect your wheel from getting scratched up while you are learning.

I would normally recommend buying from a distributor as you get the warranty (unless you are confident in replacing parts yourself if something breaks). After taxes the price isn't much cheaper in the end.  Speedyfeet.co.uk are very good with support and addressing any issues you may have and eunicycles.eu have a very competitive price on the ks18XL.

[FlyboyEUC]

The Z10 has multiple reports of no customer service. It could even arrive broken... just saying. 

[Olav]

There are a few options open to you, being in Sweden you could look into e-wheels.no (even, if you're close enough, go there to buy it), though of the two they only have the XL.
Speedyfeet in the UK is an option (Only XL as well)
There is 1radwerkstatt.de in Germany (don't think they have the Z10)
AliExpress, which you've already mentioned
Ewheels.com, though they are in the US (Think they've stopped selling the Z10)

I think theres also someone in France, but I'm not sure what they're called.

[mrelwood]

I hadn’t heard of Aliexpress shipments failing to arrive tax free. My friend’s wheel is on the way, so we will know in a week or so wether it arrives tax free as promised.

The Z10 is a strange and in some situations a laborous ride compared to all other wheels. I agree it looks the beast, but I wouldn’t trade the 18XL riding distance and seemingly overall superiority to looks, no matter how great. Especially now that the Z10 production is dying.

[Windjammer]

Thanks guys!

A few more reviews watched and I've dropped the Z10. It's now between 18XL and MSuper X.

Prefer looks of MSuper X and it's in stock... (but 18XL are probably better on paper). It's tricky when could can't touch and feel irl 

 

[Ronko]

Both great choices, can't go wrong with either. From my experience the XL is a bit more comfortable to ride and more practical, but you might have more fun with an MSX!

[Scubadragonsan]

I prefer KingSong 18Xl, since I already have a KS18L. It might just a matter of preference. I don't like MSuper ride as much because it has a sway to it. In terms of body cosmetics, KingSong has a better look. It's very solid. Good distance. KingSong is preferred from a KingSong fan!

[meepmeepmayer]

4 hours ago, Windjammer said:

Prefer looks of MSuper X and it's in stock... (but 18XL are probably better on paper).

The MSX has a little better performance, the 18XL is better built and has more features. You cannot go wrong with either wheel. If you find yourself wanting one wheel over the other for no obvious reason, follow your intuition and get that.

[eddiemoy]

If you could wait a few months how about the 16X?

[mrelwood]

51 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

If you could wait a few months how about the 16X?

The 16X indeed looks like it’s going to be the killer. However:

- Even Kingsong has 1st batch issues. Best to wait for others to experiment.

- Upcoming wheels are often delayed.

- 16X is supposed to start production in June. Add a possible delay, add 1st batch shipping times, add a few weeks for enough reviews to pop up... Then make the order. Once you finally have your first wheel, the summer is well over. The same summer that you could’ve spent learning and enjoying your first wheel, a top class 18XL.

Spring is a bad time to be very tactical with EUC purchase decisions.

[rinzler]

I also considered waiting on the ks16x but as @mrelwood has noted the timing isnt great if you want it a. With good learning/riding weather and b. NOW! I can imagine learning it in cold rainy weather a real miserable and offputting experience!

Specs aside you haven't what type of riding you want to do and the environment. E.g commuter and you live in a 3rd floor flat with no lift. All of a sudden the weight becomes a factor. KS16X is approx 25kg i think. I can barely carry my 8kg escooter for long periods so that put and end to that line of enquiry!

The other thing to consider is available capacity ratios. This is something I didnt understand coming from an escooter where you can ride at the limit until the battery dies.

On eucs there is a calculation for the max power relative to the battery level. So i believe on the Gotways you can ride full speed to 20% of the remaining battery. I've seen on here that the KS is higher thus preserving rider safety.

I haven't even got one yet but i feel like I've read and watched enough for a lifetime. Now it's time for me to stop crunching the numbers and start trying the experience. 

That aside your route to entry is similar to mine: get the best you can afford now. Hopefully i won't regret that over the other school of thought which is progressive enhancement of wheels.

[eddiemoy]

14 minutes ago, rinzler said:

I also considered waiting on the ks16x but as @mrelwood has noted the timing isnt great if you want it a. With good learning/riding weather and b. NOW! I can imagine learning it in cold rainy weather a real miserable and offputting experience!

Specs aside you haven't what type of riding you want to do and the environment. E.g commuter and you live in a 3rd floor flat with no lift. All of a sudden the weight becomes a factor. KS16X is approx 25kg i think. I can barely carry my 8kg escooter for long periods so that put and end to that line of enquiry!

The other thing to consider is available capacity ratios. This is something I didnt understand coming from an escooter where you can ride at the limit until the battery dies.

On eucs there is a calculation for the max power relative to the battery level. So i believe on the Gotways you can ride full speed to 20% of the remaining battery. I've seen on here that the KS is higher thus preserving rider safety.

I haven't even got one yet but i feel like I've read and watched enough for a lifetime. Now it's time for me to stop crunching the numbers and start trying the experience. 

That aside your route to entry is similar to mine: get the best you can afford now. Hopefully i won't regret that over the other school of thought which is progressive enhancement of wheels.

I would consider a throw away wheel for learning, rather than to buy the best you can afford.  When you take a dump on your $2000 wheel and you will.  It will hurt.  

I bought a ninebot c+ to learn for a month.  That wheel took all the beatings like a champ except for one so bad that the battery fell out.  Had to unscrew the side to put it back in. 

[Lutalo]

I am just casting a vote here because you have received such great recommendations that I really have nothing to add to that part of the discussion.  My vote would go to 18XL. Why? I own both 18XL and 18L; I love them both. It's a superior wheel. 

I am mostly a recreational/commuter rider, and I ride a lot. I like to explore and would describe myself more an expedition rider as opposed to an adventure/thrill rider. For the type of riding that I do, my 18XL is the cream of the crop. There is nothing else out there that even comes close. 

I like the MSX, but I like the 18XL more, and I have never been a fan of the Z10. Outside its neat design, the MSX and XL just seemed like superior wheels in my estimation; so, they were the only two wheels which I seriously explored. You are obviously interested in the Z10, but it's just not on my radar so,  I can't really speak on its virtues and vices from a fan or owner perspective as can some others. 

I might at some point pick up a used MSX for off road adventuring. Even though my 18XL is perfectly capable offroad adventurer I think the MSX seems slightly better for higher-stress offroad adventuring. Plus, since I don't like the MSX as much as I like the XL, I imagine that I will be less averse to abusing it; assuming the acquisition price is satisfactorily low of course. But then, I can do without it until used acquisition prices become satisfactory. 

If you were considering an MSX vs 18XL it would come down to the type of riding you see yourself doing. In most everyday riding situations the XL is going to be better, but if you are gonna spend more time in the outback than on the pavement then I would go with an MSX.

I would say get a Z10 if you are not deterred by the issues surrounding it, you just really want a wheel that looks cool, and having a cool-looking wheel is high on your priority list. 

 

[Windjammer]

Thank you for helping on this! I get only limited responses otherwise I would reply on all.

The 16X do look better but with launch, delays, first batch problems, living on the end of the planet etc... I would probably not have it until Christmas.

When it comes to riding I live down town with lift in apt and would use it around the streets of Sthlm.

I actually also have a specific task in mind - filming. Planning to use it to film down town Stockholm for differens projects. Should go extremely well with DSLR and gimbal.

Had almost decided on MSuper X that's in stock (still waiting for 18XL) at Norwegian dealer until I saw that it's 84v and seems like (?) most prefer 100v. Performance vs battery?

[eddiemoy]

13 minutes ago, Windjammer said:

Thank you for helping on this! I get only limited responses otherwise I would reply on all.

The 16X do look better but with launch, delays, first batch problems, living on the end of the planet etc... I would probably not have it until Christmas.

When it comes to riding I live down town with lift in apt and would use it around the streets of Sthlm.

I actually also have a specific task in mind - filming. Planning to use it to film down town Stockholm for differens projects. Should go extremely well with DSLR and gimbal.

Had almost decided on MSuper X that's in stock (still waiting for 18XL) at Norwegian dealer until I saw that it's 84v and seems like (?) most prefer 100v. Performance vs battery?

It isn’t easy to film and ride. Especially if you have never ridden before.  If you are filming and riding maybe a smaller wheel where you have a little more agility would be better for you, a 16” instead of an 18”.  

Dont want to be harsh, but filming and riding you are asking for a face plant.  Riding an EUC is not like any other, but it is influenced by wind.  Holding out one hand or a gimble to one side will cause you to fall to that side.  Even a long stick with a 360 camera, it is difficult to hold if it isn’t straight in front of you.  If you hold it diagonal and it catches the wind, it will make you turn.  Like wise if you are holding a plastic bag to one side, it will feel like you are about to get knocked off because it is pushing you on one side and you have to apply some counter force on the pedals to just stay on.  

Magazine if you are filming, you are not watching where you are going or what you maybe rolling over.  Bad bad bad.  I know you probably seen some folks riding and filming in NYC, but these guys have so much experience.  It isn’t for a beginner.  

[meepmeepmayer]

21 minutes ago, Windjammer said:

Had almost decided on MSuper X that's in stock (still waiting for 18XL) at Norwegian dealer until I saw that it's 84v and seems like (?) most prefer 100v. Performance vs battery?

Reportedly there are little differences in how both wheels feel to ride, so you more or less get the same wheel either way. You get 69kph top speed (100V at 100% battery) vs. 58kph (84V at 100% battery), but the 84V has the bigger battery and bigger range. I'd take a 1600Wh 84V MSX over the 100V any day.

Get the wheel you secretly know you want, be it MSX or 18XL.

[Windjammer]

3 minutes ago, eddiemoy said:

It isn’t easy to film and ride. Especially if you have never ridden before.  If you are filming and riding maybe a smaller wheel where you have a little more agility would be better for you, a 16” instead of an 18”.  

Dont want to be harsh, but filming and riding you are asking for a face plant.  Riding an EUC is not like any other, but it is influenced by wind.  Holding out one hand or a gimble to one side will cause you to fall to that side.  Even a long stick with a 360 camera, it is difficult to hold if it isn’t straight in front of you.  If you hold it diagonal and it catches the wind, it will make you turn.  Like wise if you are holding a plastic bag to one side, it will feel like you are about to get knocked off because it is pushing you on one side and you have to apply some counter force on the pedals to just stay on.  

Magazine if you are filming, you are not watching where you are going or what you maybe rolling over.  Bad bad bad.  I know you probably seen some folks riding and filming in NYC, but these guys have so much experience.  It isn’t for a beginner.  

Thanks. I wouldnt go blasting from the start though. And probably all done in low speed.

[eddiemoy]

26 minutes ago, Windjammer said:

Thanks. I wouldnt go blasting from the start though. And probably all done in low speed.

Depending on what you mean by low speed, it is very difficult to ride an EUC slower than walking.   Just like a bike, will require many small corrections to keep from falling.  Not good for filming.  If you are looking for smooth gimble like filming, you would go with a Segway miniPro pro.  Takes seconds to learn and you can go as slow as you need to go and even stand still.  Cost 1/4 what you are considering from EUC side. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by eddiemoy

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, Windjammer said:

Had almost decided on MSuper X that's in stock (still waiting for 18XL) at Norwegian dealer until I saw that it's 84v and seems like (?) most prefer 100v. Performance vs battery?

Not sure where the impression that most people prefer the 100v. The performance difference mostly top end where all three of these wheels are already in the nether regions of speed for an euc. 

I have yet to find a good reason; better yet, desire to go above the limited speed of my XL.

All of these wheels are very fast. I would say the 84v 18XL and MSX are a better blend of speed and performance. The XL firmware limits you at 31-32 mph. I believe the MSX is limited to a slightly lower firmware speed than the XL, but allows you to override it. When the limiter is removed it will go to 35-36 mph; the XL will not allow you to remove the top speed limiter like the MSX. For that, I am personally grateful. I often cruise easily at 25-30mph on my XL. Believe me, 25-30 feels blazingly fast for a functionally consistent cruising speed in real world conditions, and too fast to outright stupid for most of the conditions I encounter riding around DC. 

Most people that I know and talk with want speed and power to be sure; but the balance usually leans in favor of range. Most of the MSX owners that I encounter have the 84v version; just saying. 

It's quite possible that where you live market tastes lean slightly different. I know that in Washington, DC my first hand observation is that the 18XL is "the" favorite advanced 18" wheel.

[Marty Backe]

On 4/15/2019 at 2:53 AM, Windjammer said:

Hey!

 

I'm about to pull the trigger on my first wheel and I'm looking for best in class/most bang for buck combined with best looking. Both equally important. 

I got a couple of more or less hopeless subjective questions I would like your input on:

1. Is the Ninebot Z10 the best looking wheel? I had decided on Kingsong 18XL until I saw the Z10. Should I still get the 18XL because it is so much better in every other aspect than design?

2. Guess no one gets away with not paying tax on stuff from Aliexpress anymore? Still cheaper even with VAT (18XL - €1900 vs €2300) but then there's the wait... seems like most deliveries take around 60 days. That's crazy long for something you want yesterday. Thoughts? I'm in Sweden so still have to buy from another country.

 

Thanks!

 

 

Only you can answer the question, "Is the Ninebot Z10 the best looking wheel?". Clearly a subjective question.

I didn't know that the 18XL is better in every way than the Z10 

Do you aspire to ride great distances (some people don't, they only plan to use the wheel in urban settings)? Than the XL is the better choice. Do you aspire to ride very fast, a lot? Than the XL is the better choice. Do you aspire to climb and descend very steep hills? Then the XL is the better choice.

Do you aspire to ride one of the most enjoyable wheels made (IMHO)? Then the Z10 is the better choice?

The use-case is the most important question to answer. Between the two wheels that you list, there is no clear best wheel. They are both great.

OK, I probably should have read most of this thread first, but now I see that your use case is Filming. I assume that's videography of some sorts, while you are moving? Without a doubt, the Z10 is the absolute best wheel for this use. It is super stable and extremely easy to ride and control at slow speeds, going in circles, etc. I have nearly every wheel, and I'd grab my Z10 if I needed to film something while I was in motion.

[stephen]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Only you can answer the question, "Is the Ninebot Z10 the best looking wheel?". Clearly a subjective question.

I didn't know that the 18XL is better in every way than the Z10 

Do you aspire to ride great distances (some people don't, they only plan to use the wheel in urban settings)? Than the XL is the better choice. Do you aspire to ride very fast, a lot? Than the XL is the better choice. Do you aspire to climb and descend very steep hills? Then the XL is the better choice.

Do you aspire to ride one of the most enjoyable wheels made (IMHO)? Then the Z10 is the better choice?

The use-case is the most important question to answer. Between the two wheels that you list, there is no clear best wheel. They are both great.

OK, I probably should have read most of this thread first, but now I see that your use case is Filming. I assume that's videography of some sorts, while you are moving? Without a doubt, the Z10 is the absolute best wheel for this use. It is super stable and extremely easy to ride and control at slow speeds, going in circles, etc. I have nearly every wheel, and I'd grab my Z10 if I needed to film something while I was in motion.

I will second that 😊😊😊

[mrelwood]

On 4/18/2019 at 4:40 PM, Marty Backe said:

I’d grab my Z10 if I needed to film something while I was in motion.

On level ground and steady speed, I agree, the Z10 rides smooth, stable, and is easier to go very slow. However, if the road is bad or has a sideways slope, the Z10 requires quite a bit more concentration and experience than the other wheels.

While filming may be your motivator, the EUC is indeed not an ideal vehicle for that. Therefore I wouldn’t let it weigh on the scale very much. While Z10 is the best wheel for some filming situations, for your first and only wheel the 18(X)L has quite a few more merits.

On 4/18/2019 at 3:30 PM, Lutalo said:

I believe the MSX is limited to a slightly lower firmware speed than the XL, but allows you to override it.

MSX tilt-back (top speed) is selectable up to 48km/h (31mph), which being a very polite tilt-back lets you keep a constant speed of around 51km/h (33mph). Overridden some people have ridden the 84V to 40mph and still returned to tell the crazy tale. I ride fast, and my top speed is usually 29mph.

[Lutalo]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I ride fast, and my top speed is usually 29mph.

 right my second alarm is set at 29 mph. My third is in proximity to 31 followed closely by the limit. I usually back off the throttle at the second beep. If I want to cruise fast I usually hover between 1st (26 mph) and 2d audible warnings. I use the first warning to alert me to go faster, and the second warning alerts me to slow down. 

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, Lutalo said:

 right my second alarm is set at 29 mph. My third is in proximity to 31 followed closely by the limit. I usually back off the throttle at the second beep. If I want to cruise fast I usually hover between 1st (26 mph) and 2d audible warnings. I use the first warning to alert me to go faster, and the second warning alerts me to slow down.