Newbie but not newbie - calling all KS16s and V8 owners

[Marty Backe]

34 minutes ago, rinzler said:

Worth mentioning I ended up with the Tesla. Might have to drop that in conversation with non EUC people... "My other vehicle? Oh yeah, I'm on a Tesla". They'll wonder if I'd suddenly come into some money!

This thread is actually an interesting journey. Starting out with the Inmotion V8 and then doing my usual OCD detailed look into the euc world. I think if the KS16S didn't have the high throttle cap and speed limit then I may have gone with that. In terms of pure looks I think the V8 is still the best of the selection on here. Not sure I can co-sign the egg look of the Tesla but it's not hideous. I found the KS16S cushions to make it look really old fashioned.

Haven't done much on the Tesla front other than get on it between a door frame to have  a feel of the forward and back motion. Coming from a snowboarding background I'm hoping I won't have as steep a learning curve as some others. Related and crucially though, I have made the mental mind shift that this isn't my escooter and like snowboarding is going to be something I learn and practice rather than just hopping on an going.

Stocking up on safety gear in the interim with the rationale that I'm getting 2 for 1 on equipment since I'll use them for snowboarding... whatever eases the mental cashflow police!

PS - what PSI should I be running on the wheel? Feels a bit flat.

I run mine at the max pressure listed on the side of the tire. If I remember, that's 45-psi.

I broke my shoulder on the Tesla (not because of the Tesla), so yeah, please get yourself some good safety gear. Slow on the Tesla is top-speed on the KS16S/V8

[tenofnine]

Tesla is a good choice definitely won't outgrow that one, it's what I'm getting as soon as Jason's new batch clears customs (if anyone know they are available sooner let me know and how). Trying to calm myself and be patient to support eWheels.

The only thing I am not looking forward to is the App, but there is WheelLog...just wish darknessbot was on Android. Why are all these developers nowadays programming only for the smaller market. Cocoa and IOS Obj-C aren't even easier to program for!

[Marty Backe]

36 minutes ago, tenofnine said:

Tesla is a good choice definitely won't outgrow that one, it's what I'm getting as soon as Jason's new batch clears customs (if anyone know they are available sooner let me know and how). Trying to calm myself and be patient to support eWheels.

The only thing I am not looking forward to is the App, but there is WheelLog...just wish darknessbot was on Android. Why are all these developers nowadays programming only for the smaller market. Cocoa and IOS Obj-C aren't even easier to program for!

There is very little to control with the app, for Gotway wheels. WheelLog is fantastic and will do everything you need on the Tesla. You should only need the Gotway app for pedal calibration, which you may do once a year.

[tenofnine]

Yea I've seen your vid and Ian's vid about it, definitely glad you are able to set that manually....but I don't know why they didn't just do it like Inmoition does it (via a slider or value). The process seems like a real goose chase for something so simple.

I'm also worried about the pedal dip, but I'm sure I'll get used to it. Again Inmotion has the whole "automatically tilt pedals back as it senses you leaning while riding" thing which is genius....don't know why every maker doesn't program that way.

Edited April 26, 2019 by tenofnine

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, tenofnine said:

Yea I've seen your vid and Ian's vid about it, definitely glad you are able to set that manually....but I don't know why they didn't just do it like Inmoition does it (via a slider or value). The process seems like a real goose chase for something so simple.

I'm also worried about the pedal dip, but I'm sure I'll get used to it. Again Inmotion has the whole "automatically tilt pedals back as it senses you leaning while riding" thing which is genius....don't know why every maker doesn't program that way.

Not sure what you mean about "worried about the pedal dip"? Are you referring to the pedal hardness mode? There are three radio buttons; click the mode that you want. Can't imagine anything being easier then clicking a button.

If you've never had a Gotway wheel than I suspect you are overthinking things and worrying for no reason.

There are vast numbers of Gotway owners and they aren't having any difficulties, so that should be reassuring to you.

[tenofnine]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Not sure what you mean about "worried about the pedal dip"? Are you referring to the pedal hardness mode? There are three radio buttons; click the mode that you want. Can't imagine anything being easier then clicking a button.

If you've never had a Gotway wheel than I suspect you are overthinking things and worrying for no reason.

There are vast numbers of Gotway owners and they aren't having any difficulties, so that should be reassuring to you.

So I've watched a lot of U-Strides content and many other Tesla owner's vids. They always clip the very angular pedals while trying sharp turns (if there are lines like in sidewalks or tiles it can cause a fall easily). He had even mentioned it at length in his long review of the Tesla, and how other EUCs didn't have that problem. I understand there are hardness settings I definitely will be riding hardest possible, but even on that setting I've seen the pedals not stay level while people do turns at any speed. 

Maybe this was an early issue, but I know it's quite common in Gotway models previously. I'm not really worried about it but it is something that I absolutely hate about the Ninebot 1 E+. Just don't want to be turning at 10-15 mph and the pedal digs into the ground sending me flying.

Edited April 26, 2019 by tenofnine

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, tenofnine said:

So I've watched a lot of U-Strides content and many other Tesla owner's vids. They always clip the very angular pedals while trying sharp turns (if there are lines like in sidewalks or tiles it can cause a fall easily). I understand there are hardness settings I definitely will be riding hardest possible, but even on that setting I've seen the pedals not stay level while people do turns at any speed. 

Maybe this was an early issue, but I know it's quite common in Gotway models previously. I'm not really worried about it but it is something that I absolutely hate about the Ninebot 1 E+. Just don't want to be turning at 10-15 mph and the pedal digs into the ground sending me flying.

OK, understand. I've never had that happen or even a concern about that happening, but maybe it's my riding style. Some people also scrape their pedals a lot, but I don't seem to have that trouble.

I hope the wheel works out for you.

[meepmeepmayer]

Pedal dipping in curves can be fixed with a good calibration. Then the pedals are always level. Nothing to worry about. Gotway wheels are no worse in this respect than any others.

I wrote the u-stride guy a lengthy PM about this after these videos, he didn't follow up but I assume he got this fixed.

[tenofnine]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Pedal dipping in curves can be fixed with a good calibration. Then the pedals are always level. Nothing to worry about. Gotway wheels are no worse in this respect than any others.

I wrote the u-stride guy a lengthy PM about this after these videos, he didn't follow up but I assume he got this fixed.

Well on my V5F (which I assume behaves similar to V8) if you use the handle switch and tilt it forward during "Turning and Forwarding Adjustment" the pedals will dip back as you turn (very useful), if you use the handle switch and tilt it back during "Turning and Forwarding Adjustment" the pedals will dip forward as you turn (don't like this at all).

So the Gotway calibration somehow does what I want automatically as well as setting the static pedal angle? If that's true that is awesome.

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, tenofnine said:

So the Gotway calibration somehow does what I want automatically as well as setting the static pedal angle? If that's true that is awesome.

No, Gotway pedals are always level if the wheel is well calibrated.

What you describe is intentional? I assume what Inmotion does here is a crutch to mitigate the unwanted pedal forward dipping. Though this is a nice feature on its own. Does it make it harder to brake in curves if the pedals are tilted back then?

[tenofnine]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

No, Gotway pedals are always level if the wheel is well calibrated.

What you describe is intentional? I assume what Inmotion does here is a crutch to mitigate the unwanted pedal forward dipping. Though this is a nice feature on its own. Does it make it harder to brake in curves if the pedals are tilted back then?

It's a very slight and gradual leveling and tilt back of the pedals as the side-to-side angle of the EUC increases. Using words like crutch is a sign of ultimate misunderstanding. It's intuitive and it's something I don't even notice until I'm on an EUC that doesn't do it and I'm scraping forward and getting pedal dip when I try tight turns or turns at speed. Inmotion has a manual setting for the static pedal angle AND a separate one for how the pedals behave during turning.This is all intentional and in my opinion having this level of customization should be mandatory on all EUC.

[meepmeepmayer]

5 minutes ago, tenofnine said:

It's intuitive and it's something I don't even notice until I'm on an EUC that doesn't do it and I'm scraping forward and getting pedal dip when I try tight turns or turns at speed.

But wheels shouldn't have any pedal dip in the first place.

I'm not saying it's a bad feature. I just think it's Inmotion making lemonade from lemons and, instead of just manually countering the unintended dip (which I call a crutch), they used the opportunity to make some pleasant turning aid.

[tenofnine]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

But wheels shouldn't have any pedal dip in the first place.

I'm not saying it's a bad feature. I just think it's Inmotion making lemonade from lemons and, instead of just manually countering the unintended dip (which I call a crutch), they used the opportunity to make some pleasant turning aid.

What do you define the word crutch as?

I know this is semantics but it's as if you have a definition that no one else knows. It's akin to me saying an EUC that actually keeps you balanced is a handicap. Not quite understanding your personal definition of the word crutch I guess.

[meepmeepmayer]

I'm not a native English speaker and didn't really think about the term too much So don't intepret too much into this, though I do love language discussions Google's first result is this, which fits what I meant: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crutch

Quote

A crutch is a figure of speech that describes something that is used as a surrogate or substitute for a more ideal solution or approach, as in the use of medical crutches as an assistance device for walking. The term also implies a degree of habitual laziness.

(Maybe replace "lazyness" with "cheapness" or "winging it".)

Here:

Problem: The tilt sensors in our wheels are not very robust and get confused by a combination of a bad calibration (where the wheel was calibrated when leaning sideways) and tilting the wheel sideways (riding curves), which leads to pedal dipping in curves (mostly forwards, but the strangest things can happen, like forward on a left turn and backward on a right turn).

Ideal solution: Use better, more robust sensors.

Crutch solutions:

• Tilt back the pedals when a sideways lean is detected, which together with the unwanted dipping keeps the pedals level in curves or even gives a slight tiltback.
• Pretend the dipping is a feature aka "corner assist".

Edited April 26, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[tenofnine]

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm not a native English speaker and didn't really think about the term too much So don't intepret too much into this, though I do love language discussions Google's first result is this, which fits what I meant: https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=crutch

Ah ok I gotcha, I personally still don't see it but I guess we just vary on opinion there.

The way I know the word in a metaphorical sense is "Something you rely on that you shouldn't rely on" I usually hear it in videogames like someone who uses an easy or cheap weapon or employs a cheap tactic like camping to get kills/achievements.

If you've never experienced pedal dip or you think all wheels don't have it then you also know what I'm talking about with the Inmotion. Because if the pedals actually did just stay flat while you tilt the wheel and tightly turn then they will actually dip forward in relation to the ground just by the actual geometry of riding on one wheel. For them to stay parallel to the ground and not dip during a tight leaning turn they would have to tilt back a bit to match the ground not the wheel's orientation.

Sorry that's really nerdy and probably too deep for such a simple thing, I'm just excited about getting a new wheel and hoping you guys are right and it doesn't have any dip issues.

The Nb1e+ definitely has bad pedal dip, and it's one of the only things that makes me not want to keep it in my arsenal.

Edited April 26, 2019 by tenofnine

[pico]

2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

But wheels shouldn't have any pedal dip in the first place.

Inmotion making lemonade from lemons

Sorry to intervene. As someone that has been literally raised on IM, this not a gimmick.

It is hard to get used to coming from other wheels, but it is really a way to get SUPER SHARP turn radius without resorting to body swivel and just using pedal pressure. It is like carving on a dime. You love it or you hate it. My GF coming from an X3 at first hated it, now she loves it.

@LanghamP would refer to it as bad habit but that's another story.

I actually use that property extensively when doing tandem riding for minute adjustments with no body movement. I just cannot do it with the NB1.

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by pico
corr

[meepmeepmayer]

I believe you guys if you say it's a nice behavior if you get a slight tiltback in curves. You ride Inmotions, I don't.

"Wheels shouldn't have pedal dip in the first place" only means unwanted/unintended pedal dip. Of course if someone programs the firmware with "slight tiltback on sideways lean", that might just be a nice feature. I still maintain (no inside knowledge, just what I think is likeliest) that the idea for this came from over-countering unintended forward dipping. Maybe it didn't.

[Planemo]

On 4/10/2019 at 9:31 PM, rinzler said:

 

I do feel another UK consideration is the legality of it all. Technically, actually it's fine as the law here only mentions two wheels and not one. 

I know its off topic as such, but no its not actually fine.

An euc is a mechanically propelled vehicle. There is nothing written into UK legislation how many wheels an MPV has to have. Therefore euc's are illegal to use on any public land or highway.

Dont let that stop you though. Hasnt stopped the rest of us

[esaj]

On 4/25/2019 at 11:07 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

The max (3 bar) or a bit (but not much) less.

There's a max?  I always pump (with a car-battery powered compressor or at a gas station with compressor, probably would have hard time doing it by hand) my wheels to slightly over 4 bars (60 PSI).  Granted that some of the air always escapes removing the valve extender, probably more like 3.5bar after that. Basically no shock absorption from the tire (you feel every little crack and pebble on the street or off-road path), but the responsiveness is superb.

Edited April 26, 2019 by esaj

[meepmeepmayer]

8 minutes ago, Planemo said:

An euc is a mechanically propelled vehicle. There is nothing written into UK legislation how many wheels an MPV has to have.

For now (however short or long), EU law still beats UK law.

As far as I know, self-balancing vehicles are a specifically mentioned category along with mechanically propelled vehicles in some EU regulation (= immediate law without adaption by the member countries). Some say this implies that self-balancing vehicles are not mechanically propelled vehicles (why would they be mentioned explicitly otherwise?). So the details may or may not be much more vague.

For example, in terms of needing a license/insurance in Germany, a EUC may not be included in any law because our laws either mention MPVs or self-balancing vehicles with 2 or more wheels (so no one-wheeled self-balancing vehicles). In some other respect, it may be a MPV.

Just some nitpicking on top of your nitpicking Good thing is, in reality we can ignore this and just ride.

[pico]

Maybe there is a misunderstanding from my part, this is a programmable dip in, not a tilt back! The reverse of what you are discribing...

[meepmeepmayer]

Just now, pico said:

Maybe there is a misunderstanding from my part, this is a programmable dip in, not a tilt back! The reverse of what you are discribing...

Can you disable it?

[pico]

You just put 0 deg. If I remember well. Have to check.

[pico]

Not sure anymore. Not working in the new app. I could be wrong, they have been through so many iterations and versions in their app.

I usually just use the default settings and go to wheelog and my pebble. But the behavior by default is a pedal dip INTO the turn to make it tighter.

[meepmeepmayer]

Just now, pico said:

But the behavior by default is a pedal dip INTO the turn to make it tighter.

And I'm 99,99% sure that is an unintentional "feature" (aka bug) and, if the sensor was better, would not be the case because the wheel would just stay level.

Rationale: Other wheels do the same until you calibrate, then the dipping goes away.

That you like the dipping is good, so you don't have to do anything about it

There's a parallel dipping discussion going on here: