Newbie but not newbie - calling all KS16s and V8 owners

[rinzler]

Hi all,

Been using an electric scooter for a two or three years now and I'm finally getting a little nervy with the sketchy ride on the small wheels (5"). I use it on the pavement mostly (not riding like a d!ck) and some road when it's quiet enough.

I was considering a Ninebot Segway ES1/2 but have also always been intrigued by EUCs.

Essentially I feel like it comes down to two options - the Inmotion V8 or the Kingsong KS16s. It seems that most favour the latter for the increase in power. I just wondered if there was any of you that have owned both and how they compare? One thing I often find is people don't consider the weight of items. For example people buy the Xiaomi M365 but don't consider the folded size and carrying weight.

This one item alone makes me lean to the V8 (14KG vs 16.5KG). But partly why I want to upgrade from my e-scooter is the desire for some more top end power (I top out at around 26kph). So I am a little concerned that the V8 will feel limited too soon (if there was an app over-ride or increase that it would negate that concern). 

I do want to continue to ride on the pavement - again not being a d!ck - we owe it to ourselves to ride responsibility if we want any chance of these not being banned.

My other main point is cost - I am considering buying second hand from fleabay. What's the chance of these things being busted or a false start? £1k/EUR1,000/$1,300 is a lot to take a punt on something so hence the second hand logic (circa £400 looking at sold prices).

How self-repairable are these too? My e-scooter had a fault which was actually just a snapped contact on the battery, I was able to troubleshoot and fix it myself (soldering new wire and replaced contact). That's something that worries me with these things too.

 

 

[esaj]

17 minutes ago, rinzler said:

My other main point is cost - I am considering buying second hand from fleabay. What's the chance of these things being busted or a false start? £1k/EUR1,000/$1,300 is a lot to take a punt on something so hence the second hand logic (circa £400 looking at sold prices).

How self-repairable are these too? My e-scooter had a fault which was actually just a snapped contact on the battery, I was able to troubleshoot and fix it myself (soldering new wire and replaced contact). That's something that worries me with these things too.

Modern wheels have sensible shell structure (unlike Firewheel ), and if just replacing ready-made parts, it's mostly just unscrewing, popping the side off (there's likely some plastic clips there depending on the model, but they're relatively easy to get off), disconnecting connectors, removing the faulty part (typically a mainboard, if there is an issue), and then doing it in reverse with the new part. The bigger name wheels usually have teardown / tire repair videos around Youtube, but there aren't that many parts really. Changing the tire usually requires more dismantling than replacing a mainboard

KS16's have been among the most reliable wheels so far, of course if the previous owner has crashed it a lot or thrown it from the building roof, it might have a lot of damage (some of which may not be obvious immediately, like cracks that widen over time).

Edited April 10, 2019 by esaj

[lioku]

41 minutes ago, rinzler said:

Essentially I feel like it comes down to two options - the Inmotion V8 or the Kingsong KS16s.

I bought a V8 as my first wheel, and it's been great. It's super portable, not too heavy, has reasonable battery life, and has conquered every hill that I've asked it to climb.

I do sometimes think that I should have sprung for the KS16S for the added range. This is the one thing is limiting on the V8.

For reference, I weigh 170lbs (77kg). If you're much heavier than that I would definitely go with the 16S or a more powerful wheel. I've let heavier friends try my V8 and it looks a little sketchy.

[UniVehje]

Both are good. V8 has some nicer features, but you will very soon want more speed and range. 

If you don’t want to or can’t spend more right now, buy a used one to learn. Believe me, you will get addicted and want to upgrade to a performance wheel in a few months. 

[meepmeepmayer]

EUCs are simple machines. So if one

• is working
• shows no sign of heavy mechanical damage like a bent motor rim
• didn't sit neglected for like a year which would worsen the batteries, or endured some heavy heavy battery abuse (very empty of very full batteries for a long time)

then it's essentially good as new (except maybe some purely cosmetic scratches) and there's little that can go wrong. Buying a used one is one of the best bang-for-the-buck options for this reason, if you find a nice (priced) one in the first place.

There won't be much to repair. Any (electronics) failure means you fall on your face, so EUCs tend to just work. Small repairs can be done, but there won't be much to to anyways.

What's your weight? I wouldn't recommend a V8 for 90+kg payload on the pedals. Also be aware the top speed goes down with battery, so the 30kph of the V8 or 35kph of the 16S go away rather soon.

26 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

Both are good. V8 has some nicer features, but you will very soon want more speed and range. 

If you don’t want to or can’t spend more right now, buy a used one to learn. Believe me, you will get addicted and want to upgrade to a performance wheel in a few months. 

All of this is very true. Especially the upgrade urge. So the important thing is: get a EUC, then you're addicted and the rest will follow

You can either buy a "forever wheel" right away, or will want a bigger and badder wheel soon. The 16S is about the lower end of what one can live with happily, while the V8 will likely just make you want to upgrade fast.

What's better also depends on the concrete prices of the 16S and V8 (assuming used). Just don't spend too much money on a wheel that will be replaced anyways.

Also maybe there's other available models (used), don't automatically limit yourself, look at everyting that's available.

[DanH]

I'm in a similar boat; however, I have ruled out that I don't want a v8.  I'm debating between KS16S and Wide Wheel Scooter  dual motor (top speed at 25mph).  The scooter has a $300 discount  currently for the 2019 model.  Today is the last day of the discount for the scooter.  Currently, I'm leaning towards KS16s.  

Decision, decision..

Edited April 10, 2019 by DanH

[rinzler]

Thanks all. I should mention rider details - I think this is why I get on just fine with my 5" wheels on my e-scooter. I am 65kg/5' 8" and UK8 feet (so I am guessing footpedals will be fine for me). I guess height is irrelevant but might have some bearing in terms of centre of gravity.

I feel the 20KG weight of the 16s is a real turn off (and if I'm honest I'm not so keen on the design). I do hear what you're all saying about upgrade sadness. Just found a vendor on alibaba selling for circa £400 but I am unsure if there are fraudsters on that platform??? (no info on the company profile and other alarm bells).

Is there a way to firmware change the speed limit on the V8? I don't think I actually want to go faster than 25mph! As I get older I get a more risk averse and bear in mind that I will mainly be on pavements so unrealistic for me to hit super fast speeds. Though as with everything, it's always nice to have it on tap.

I do feel another UK consideration is the legality of it all. Technically, actually it's fine as the law here only mentions two wheels and not one.  

I generally try to buy the 'forever' option. But since this is tech, I think that will be a myth. Especially if you, and I suspect most are, into tech then you'll always yearn for that cool new version of phone/laptop/EUC/e-scooter/car. Who knows. My rationale is to get something that performs more than my needs so I don't feel limited by it. 

 

[UniVehje]

1 hour ago, rinzler said:

 

Is there a way to firmware change the speed limit on the V8? I don't think I actually want to go faster than 25mph! As I get older I get a more risk averse and bear in mind that I will mainly be on pavements so unrealistic for me to hit super fast speeds. Though as with everything, it's always nice to have it on tap.

 

I think you can change the top speed to 35 using darknessbot app. However, the wheel will quite quickly start to throttle the speed as the battery level gets lower. 

[tessa25]

I have a V8 have absolutely no regrets whatsoever about purchasing it. It will be the perfect wheel for sightseeing because it doesn't weigh too much. I'm going to be buying the KS 16X this summer which will be good for doing off-road and long-distance. The downside for me will be the weight. So in the end for me to have a light wheel and a wheel that can go long-distance I end up having to get two wheels.

[rinzler]

I can see the 16s is better on paper. V8 looks better in my opinion. 3KG difference - I guess I am thinking a lot of my e-scooter which I do carry sometimes and starts to weigh me down after a while (8KG). That said I do trolley it more often so maybe a 16.5KG wheel is not such a big deal??

The other issue is support - I have read the warnings of aliexpress/alibaba version not being the proper spec and no support. So for that drama the V8 seems to be available for cheaper and a risk I could stomach a bit more. 

I considered the V10F based on the EUC for life but have now ruled that out based on weight and manoueverability at slow speeds and my use case which is <10 mile commutes in the city and suburban environments.

Head says 16S, heart (and wallet) say V8.  

[meepmeepmayer]

2 hours ago, rinzler said:

I don't think I actually want to go faster than 25mph!

Everyone says that. I did. Then you get a wheel and realize 25kph (not mph, right?) is painfully slow. Your standard cyclist is faster, most bikes go around 30kph. It only sounds fast now. When cyclists overtake you and you can barely overtake even the slower ones, 25 is less impressive.

But as a starter wheel and on the sidewalk, the V8 is totally fine. It is sleek, light and very carryable and the handle is nice (but the 16S also has one). Maybe it is the right wheel for you.

Again, depends on what you'd pay for it compared to other options.

2 hours ago, rinzler said:

Is there a way to firmware change the speed limit on the V8?

I believe there is, but you should never do that on a EUC. This isn't like a scooter where hitting the limit just means you turn the throttle but it doesn't go faster. If you overpower a EUC, it can no longer balance you, and you necessarily fall on your face. No way around it. Any EUC should be as strong as possible, simply for the safety margin (speed is merely a side effect of a stronger wheel).

The V8 is already borderline weak and there were reports of heavier people overpowering the thing at above 25kph. Not so much a problem at your weight, but don't do any firmware hacks.

[mrelwood]

The thing to note on a used wheel is the battery. If it doesn’t charge to 100%, a pair of cells has been worn, damaged or died, and the range and power of the wheel will be seriously hindered. A 1200W 840Wh 16S with a dead cell is more comparable to a 600W 420Wh wheel.

[tenofnine]

It's a hard question to answer because it requires foresight, but these 2 wheels are kind of apples and oranges.

Coming from my viewpoint now I'd 110% tell you to get the KingSong 16S....because it's what I wish I'd have bought from the beginning.

But that's only because now I know for sure that EUCs are amazing and I love riding them more than any other PEV.

If you know for sure you are going to like EUCs then you need to get the KingSong 16S. It is a great starting wheel but you definitely will not outgrow it. The range and speed are optimal for the price and almost any setting.

If you end up really liking EUCs you will be kicking yourself for getting a V8.....lovely wheel but it's too limited to grow into most users needs.

[rinzler]

 

Sorry about the delayed response - wasn't allowed to post because of the antispam thing.

22 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Everyone says that. I did. Then you get a wheel and realize 25kph (not mph, right?) is painfully slow. Your standard cyclist is faster, most bikes go around 30kph. It only sounds fast now. When cyclists overtake you and you can barely overtake even the slower ones, 25 is less impressive.

I did mean 25mph. Whilst different, my e-scooter (5" wheels) provides it's own issues of higher speed and terrain. So I can get that to 30kph (18mph) and I am used to that as a top speed. It's the biggest limitation of my scooter. An Segway ES1/2 or Zoom Stryder won't give me more but perhaps might do so more comfortably.

The above is why I'm looking away from e-scooters. Until they produce higher powered motors that don't look like off road vehicles (bearing in mind I'm in London and UK laws - i.e. I like my stealth scooter look "is it electric?" is the most common question I get even when I am clearly not kicking).

Anyway, I digress. I've literally spent the last two days reading and watching every bit of EUC info I can.

So I've dismissed the v8 based on the above and my further reading. Agree. Unless I found it circa £400 then it's not worth the investment. I am likely to stick with the EUC because of the price of admission. Also I do love scootering and e-scootering - it feels much more freer than a bike. So I am hoping the EUC will provide an expanded version of that whilst maintaining the agility of the scooters (hop on/off, use street/road).

So a revised short list is the KS16S (840wh) and despite all the horror stories, the Gotway Tesla (1020wh). I looked at the KS16X (latest tech logic) but 24Kg is getting silly.

The problem with the KS is the 21mph max speed. I understand now the importance of a buffer window (to avoid power cut-out). So if I want to go 25mph then I need something with a top end of 30mph and so on. I am used to 16-19mph on the scooter so the worry about outgrowing from above makes sense to me. That said the Tesla seems to have a reputation that preceeds it = a danger machine, russian roulette on build quality but the best bang for your buck.

So lets add the final dimension: cost. I understand I can't get a KS anywhere other than a EUR vendor and the cheapest I have seen is around £1250. This bugs me because the machine is old and I saw some posts about group buys at circa $700US!

The Tesla can be got for around £950 on Aliexpress. Still pricey. But seems the £300 difference for the KS is build quality and a better trolly and not performance....

Is there anywhere I could find the KS16S for around circa £900? But then again a Tesla at £900 is  now hard to ignore. I don't mind grey market if the price is low enough. I will take that risk of having to fix problems myself.

I certainly am not a speed demon. I do however feel more comfortable with a higher power threshold that I will never hit (the car max MPH is an analogy I've seen here). I worry that the KS16 will make me feel stuck too soon. A max 21mph feels slow for a £1250 machine (the price of an older Toyota MR2 MKII!).

I think I'm going to rent a Ninebot Z10 (only option) to try a EUC for a day to see how they feel). Then I want to make a choice. Seems EUCs don't have the fast turnaround we've gotten used to with phones/laptops etc (which is a good thing for value for money over time).

AliExpress priced Tesla

Is this a fake? or China only lower spec variant? Alibaba Kimiwheel???

 

Edited April 11, 2019 by rinzler
added link

[meepmeepmayer]

24 minutes ago, rinzler said:

despite all the horror stories, the Gotway Tesla (1020wh)

Horror stories? Those were boards that died right away in the first batch, that was about it. Or people being dumb with their new, super-fast wheel. The Tesla is a good, safe, proven and justifiedly popular wheel (also because it has a relatively good price compared to others). The added safety of the stronger wheel far exceeds any safety problems with the Tesla (I say these don't exist).

Sounds like the Tesla is the best choice for you. Decent price, strong (=safe), very fast. There's an upgraded version with a trolley handle and speakers (@Marty Backe does the "old" Tesla also have a trolley or is this the new one?). Not sure when that will be out, but try to get it (ask the seller).

24 minutes ago, rinzler said:

So lets add the final dimension: cost. I understand I can't get a KS anywhere other than a EUR vendor and the cheapest I have seen is around £1250. This bugs me because the machine is old and I saw some posts about group buys at circa $700US!

Kingsong is cracking down hard on grey imports and won't even sell to Ali sellers for this reason. So there's no side route to get a Kingsong.

Gotway meanwhile will sell to Ali sellers, but if you (in Europe or the US) have a problem with the wheel, their reply will be "too bad, should have bought in your country" and they will ignore you. But you still have the service from the Ali sellers which is quite good (with the right one).

Your first link is good. Green and Fashion is a known good seller (unless there's something I don't know).

Second link seems to be a KS14D, presumably with a small 320Wh battery. That 45kph is nonsense in any possible interpretation.

Edited April 11, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[rinzler]

31 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Horror stories? Those were boards that died right away in the first batch, that was about it.

 

Your first link is good. Green and Fashion is a known good seller (unless there's something I don't know).

Second link seems to be a KS14D, presumably with a small 320Wh battery. That 45kph is nonsense in any possible interpretation.

I got the Green and Fashion seller name from one of the helpful sticky posts on here. Indeed this forum has been my bible over the last few days. The only worry part is this 'addiction' idea... I don't think my wallet could take that!

The second link I presume is the Chinese only version. Either way it isn't a KS16S. Although spec sheet on these sites always seem wrong or wonky!

With regards to the horror stories, it relates to mainboards frying themselves, cheap components and dodgy build quality. The latter part of people face planting is hopefully something that won't be me since I ride on the side of caution. That said I have reviewed the safety gear and fortunately for me can use the body armour for an excuse to restart my snowboarding!

Are there fake versions of these EUCs? I guess this is the big drama with random AliExpress shops (indeed I found an Inmotion V8 selling for £400 which I would have just bought if it weren't for the unverified/zero company information provided).

And on the topic of grey importing, I'm not averse to getting handy with basic soldering and tinkering. Am I right in saying these units (Tesla or other) are fairly easy to repair both in terms of skill level and access to parts? This is a big decider in going the Ali route.

If the price is right and I can hear some testimonials of Tesla owners who have not had problems or have had them and overcome them then it might push the Tesla over the line (though I much prefer the trolley of the KS16s).

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

10 minutes ago, rinzler said:

With regards to the horror stories, it relates to mainboards frying themselves, cheap components and dodgy build quality. The latter part of people face planting is hopefully something that won't be me since I ride on the side of caution.

The boards frying were boards that were bad from the start in the first Tesla batch. As for the rest, build quality is not the same as safety. All modern brand wheels are safe in that they don't cut out due to sudden electronics failure with 99.999999% certainty. As far as build quality goes, Kingsong may be a bit better, but that doesn't mean Gotway is bad. These wheels are surprisingly durable and well-built.

10 minutes ago, rinzler said:

Are there fake versions of these EUCs?

No.

10 minutes ago, rinzler said:

And on the topic of grey importing, I'm not averse to getting handy with basic soldering and tinkering. Am I right in saying these units (Tesla or other) are fairly easy to repair both in terms of skill level and access to parts? This is a big decider in going the Ali route.

There's about two repairs you can and would possibly have to do on a EUC: replace the board, or replace the motor (if the board or the motor have a problem). That's about it. You'd get both parts from your Ali seller, board is easy to get (the standard "something wrong with the electronics" replacement) and motor will need some prodding/convincing the seller that yours is actually bad and that he needs to spring for a new one.

Both repairs are simple, if you even have to do them (most repairs are wheels that are for some reason not working right out of the box. It is extremely rare to non-occurring that a wheel works for 5000km but something breaks after 5001km).

Self-repairs are a bad idea on a device that throws you to the ground the moment it stops working. So no soldering or such stuff (not that it would be needed), you don't want to ride on questionable components. It's either 100% or broken, nothing in between.

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Horror stories? Those were boards that died right away in the first batch, that was about it. Or people being dumb with their new, super-fast wheel. The Tesla is a good, safe, proven and justifiedly popular wheel (also because it has a relatively good price compared to others). The added safety of the stronger wheel far exceeds any safety problems with the Tesla (I say these don't exist).

Sounds like the Tesla is the best choice for you. Decent price, strong (=safe), very fast. There's an upgraded version with a trolley handle and speakers (@Marty Backe does the "old" Tesla also have a trolley or is this the new one?). Not sure when that will be out, but try to get it (ask the seller).

Kingsong is cracking down hard on grey imports and won't even sell to Ali sellers for this reason. So there's no side route to get a Kingsong.

Gotway meanwhile will sell to Ali sellers, but if you (in Europe or the US) have a problem with the wheel, their reply will be "too bad, should have bought in your country" and they will ignore you. But you still have the service from the Ali sellers which is quite good (with the right one).

Your first link is good. Green and Fashion is a known good seller (unless there's something I don't know).

Second link seems to be a KS14D, presumably with a small 320Wh battery. That 45kph is nonsense in any possible interpretation.

Yes, the Tesla has always had a trolley handle and was the first Gotway wheel with handle almost as good as the KingSong style.

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

there's no side route to get a Kingsong.

Actually, there is, the ads are just not publicly shown. Send a message to the reputable EUC sellers at Ali and most of them will be able to get you a competitive quote. My brother’s 16S was bought that way last spring.

That said, if the 16S top speed feels iffy now, it will start bothering you in a week. I also think the Tesla might be the way to go for you.

[Daley1]

Heres the thing about the KS16,

it has a handle so you can push it around easily and don't have to carry it up stairs .Lifting in and out of the car can be an issue .It is portable,  maneuverable enough as a daily road commuter and then you can take it off road for a bit of a thrash on the weekend or a long ride.You can walk around the shopping centre with it then ride it home without lugging the bigger wheels around.Tops out at about 35 kmh which is plenty fast whilst learning ,the headlight is a bit crap and u can play tunes and have ur own moving disco with programmable leds..Did a 35k ride the other day and only used 20%battery at 22kmh/speed locked and I, 6,2" 240lbs.Suits me fine

[Dzlchef]

I have the KS16S and love it, very portable with the trolley. If I had the choice between that or the Tesla then it would be the Tesla. Go for the extra power and a decent sized battery.  The only challenge could be in your learning phase.  The shell on the Kingsong is neigh indestructible compared to Gotway. 

[Marty Backe]

6 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

I have the KS16S and love it, very portable with the trolley. If I had the choice between that or the Tesla then it would be the Tesla. Go for the extra power and a decent sized battery.  The only challenge could be in your learning phase.  The shell on the Kingsong is neigh indestructible compared to Gotway. 

I agree. I think the Tesla is just as reliable as the KS16S yet has more range because of the bigger battery. It's also much faster.

The KingSong trolley handles are the best in the industry. But the second best is the Tesla and MCM5 trolleys. I've never had any issues, you just have slightly less positive control over the wheel compared to the KingSong trolleys.

[rinzler]

Worth mentioning I ended up with the Tesla. Might have to drop that in conversation with non EUC people... "My other vehicle? Oh yeah, I'm on a Tesla". They'll wonder if I'd suddenly come into some money!

This thread is actually an interesting journey. Starting out with the Inmotion V8 and then doing my usual OCD detailed look into the euc world. I think if the KS16S didn't have the high throttle cap and speed limit then I may have gone with that. In terms of pure looks I think the V8 is still the best of the selection on here. Not sure I can co-sign the egg look of the Tesla but it's not hideous. I found the KS16S cushions to make it look really old fashioned.

Haven't done much on the Tesla front other than get on it between a door frame to have  a feel of the forward and back motion. Coming from a snowboarding background I'm hoping I won't have as steep a learning curve as some others. Related and crucially though, I have made the mental mind shift that this isn't my escooter and like snowboarding is going to be something I learn and practice rather than just hopping on an going.

Stocking up on safety gear in the interim with the rationale that I'm getting 2 for 1 on equipment since I'll use them for snowboarding... whatever eases the mental cashflow police!

PS - what PSI should I be running on the wheel? Feels a bit flat.

[rinzler]

BTW 20KG is forking heavy! I knew my 8KG escooter rationale was right all those years ago (just take a look at how many people fold their m365s....clue: zero!). The Tesla, this mofo is going give me a hernia! To think I thought about going KS16X (24KG).

 

[meepmeepmayer]

5 minutes ago, rinzler said:

PS - what PSI should I be running on the wheel? Feels a bit flat.

The max (3 bar) or a bit (but not much) less.

6 minutes ago, rinzler said:

This thread is actually an interesting journey. Starting out with the Inmotion V8 and then doing my usual OCD detailed look into the euc world.

Somehow everyone does that. I did, too. Gotway and Kingsong are unknown for people who don't come to this forum. I guess because Inmotion (and earlier Solowheel) are the only ones doing any marketing. So reviews and articles are mostly for the V8, even if they are old (same reason people still consider the oooooold Ninebots).

I'd say @Jason McNeil also played a role because he sent out wheels to influencers and the V8 was a lower priced, fully developed, and reliable option for that, unlike the more raw and expensive Gotways and Kingsongs.