Speed Reduction Graph, Rider Info Needed

[Mike Sacristan]

2 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

4x24 cells with 3450mAh. Yes it's 4p, not 6p like the 84V 1600Wh.

Thanks!
That's a bit less worrying for the 100V Nikola but more worrying for the Monster 100V.

[meepmeepmayer]

I corrected it, the 4p is just the 1230Wh but you asked the 1845Wh which is 6p

4 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

That's a bit less worrying for the 100V Nikola but more worrying for the Monster 100V.

Why? Both 100V Monster and Nikola are 1845Wh (6p). There's no 1230Wh 100V Monster I know of.

[meepmeepmayer]

@Jason McNeil Would you kindly ask Gotway for the 3rd alarm speeds for the Nikola? Just fill this out Thanks!

[Mike Sacristan]

12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I corrected it, the 4p is just the 1230Wh but you asked the 1845Wh which is 6p

Phew!

12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Why? Both 100V Monster and Nikola are 1845Wh (6p). There's no 1230Wh 100V Monster I know of.

That was based on the 4P answer which was corrected to 6P. I was thinking of the available voltage considering the other 100V MSX thread.
The Nikola 100v 1845Wh top speed is lower and more self limiting than the Monster. The Monster is more encouraging of higher speeds and you would have to watch out on long uphills. I just wanted to make sure I was trading apples for apples if choosing the 100V Nikola.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, US69 said:

Great done and absolutly correct!

Thank you! But I actually just realized the image was wrong (45kph is at 10%, not 0%). So only 90% correct. I fixed it

[Azze80]

On 4/11/2019 at 9:16 PM, Jason McNeil said:

I wasn't aware of this either, it just comes to show that what goes on in Engineering doesn't get disseminated to whatever marketing dept there is. 
Bear in mind that these figures are simply the 3rd level alarm, it's most certainly not a safe ride speed; there's been reported instances of Riders accelerating hard, still under the limit, with the Wheel cutting out from under them. Couldn't help myself, plotted the data into a graph.

 

I have some questions regarding this post and especially the Tesla, regarding the setup of alarm etc. Also have general questions regarding the Tesla (more indirect questions of the same topic but more what to think of after buying the wheel). I want to respect the forum rules and don't want to post unnecessary info here in this thread if it's meant better somewhere else(also, feel sorry for bomping @US69 inbox when it comes to questions , lol, (seriously, thanks a lot).

Should I post these questions somewhere else instead of here and copy Jason's comment from this thread?

What do you think Staff or advanced members?

[meepmeepmayer]

Don't overthink it and post where you want. Here or otherwise. Worst case, everything can be moved

[Azze80]

16 hours ago, Azze80 said:

  On 4/11/2019 at 9:16 PM, Jason McNeil said:

I wasn't aware of this either, it just comes to show that what goes on in Engineering doesn't get disseminated to whatever marketing dept there is. 
Bear in mind that these figures are simply the 3rd level alarm, it's most certainly not a safe ride speed; there's been reported instances of Riders accelerating hard, still under the limit, with the Wheel cutting out from under them. Couldn't help myself, plotted the data into a graph.

Thanks @meepmeepmayer , my overthinking is a pain the b*** sometimes lol,

Without extending this thread too much, I have learned a lot but don't understand everything here regarding the cut offs from ex GW.

In general, demanding too much(causing spikes due to potholes, uneven incline, jumping etc) of a half empty battery while on load(my weight 67kg) will eventually result in a cut off (or something like that).

Choosing a new wheel...

I am seriously considering buying the Tesla V2 for several reasons (coming fr KS which I still love btw), I like how nimble and agile it is compared to the 18" wheels and also I like having the performance there , even if I don't ride faster than 30-35kmph, I still like the feel of knowing I can get out of a tricky situation if I'd like to and still have the power left. I would prefer to have 1600wh battery for even more range and security but but can't really find another wheels that matches my criteria, so I have to sacrifice a bit of range and security and adapt my riding when at lower voltage/battery instead. This wheel will eventually be my main transportation to work(maybe around 5-7km one way), but also a fun ride for me, meaning I don't want to the feel of a heavy wheel as an 18". 

What makes me hesitate in buying the Tesla, GW in general, is my lack of knowledge regarding the "security thinking/handling" and overall setup of their wheels with beeps etc. Can someone enlighten me? I feel that by buying the Tesla(even though many say that they now don't have more issues regarding cut offs than other brands), that I have to be more up to date with the risks that comes with this particular wheel more than I did with KS for exemple for 2 reasons: they let you choose more freely how to limit your wheel and also their earlier reputation. 

With KS I put an alarm (3rd) at 27 and the tilt back around 29-30kmph (ks14s). Then the software and wheel did the rest and I was pretty comfortable and confident that it would do its job accordingly (good).

What does the "...3rd level alarm,..." mean actually?

Also, "...it's most certainly not a safe ride speed; there's been reported instances of Riders accelerating hard, still under the limit, with the Wheel cutting out from under them..."

Why? Are these accident due to bad quality or just plain physics where the riders have gone mad again and don't follow the speed limits according to the manufacturer? Is there an issue with what GW claims to be a safety limit to ride under but it still isn't (safe)? Why does it cut out when under the limit?

Basic questions regarding the Tesla V2

1. At what pace/speed is it safe(r) for me to ride the Tesla(Protective gear will be bought of course)
2. How many alarms does the Tesla have and what do they mean?
3. Is the 3rd alarm mentioned the last alarm and is that the critical one that is not meant to pass?
   • what happens when passing that? Is there a tilt back or does it cut off ?
4. (if there is tilt back) Does the tilt back behave like ks wheels where you can ride it for a long time?
5. Are there any reasons to doubt Mosfet/cable/board/motor or other components in Tesla when compared to other wheels?
6. Are there statistic info from dealers where owners have reported what challenges and issues they've had? 

My next part will be a process for gaining confidence in my new wheel. 

Appreciate all your help!

 

 

 

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, Azze80 said:

Without extending this thread too much, I have learned a lot but don't understand everything here regarding the cut offs from ex GW.

Cut offs is a very ambigous expression. A "real" cut off happens if something in the wheel "cuts off", like a fried mosfet, molten motor cables causing a short circuit, in earlier times a BMS cutting off, CPU shutting down, etc...

Mostly it's just an overlean - one just aks for too much torque, which the motor(wheel) cannot deliver at this moment.

These graphs could about somehow very roughly correlate with an MSX 84V/100V. So a Tesla could be not too far from this pictures (just having less speed by beeing a 16 inch wheel instead of the MSX beeing 18 inch wheels, if they used about the same or a similar motor).

This shows the physical limits of EUCs. They can only operate within the grey area (dark grey in this example for the 84V Version, light grey the "extension" for the 100V version)

How to "use" this graph:

One knows the speed at which one is going - so one can make a vertical line at this speed and sees by this how much of an current the wheel can "push" through the motor at this speed. The current is directly proportional to the torque the wheel delivers.

So one sees for each speed on is riding how much torque the wheel can deliver.

What is torque needed for / what "uses up" the torque:

- air drag - by the square of the speed one is riding

- friction: Of tire rolling on the road, the motor axle, etc...

- acceleration: torque needed for acceleration is directly proportional to the acceleration and the weight that's getting accelerated.

- driving up an incline: Is like an acceleration - depending on the steepnes, one is accelerating "against (parts of) the gravitation"

As comparison the same chart for empty batteries:

Quote

What makes me hesitate in buying the Tesla, GW in general, is my lack of knowledge regarding the "security thinking/handling" and overall setup of their wheels with beeps etc. Can someone enlighten me? I feel that by buying the Tesla(even though many say that they now don't have more issues regarding cut offs than other brands), that I have to be more up to date with the risks that comes with this particular wheel more than I did with KS for exemple for 2 reasons: they let you choose more freely how to limit your wheel and also their earlier reputation. 

Unfortionately i don't really know, would be interesting - so please if one can confirm or set this right?! Imo GW let one enable or disable some fixed speed alarms? The speed at which they occur cannot be changed? The tilt back speed can be freely choosen up to some maximum value?

Quote

What does the "...3rd level alarm,..." mean actually?

As reported (in this topic, afair) the third alarm starts at 80% maximum speed. (whatever maximum speed means exactly...)

If you look at the above graphs, the real maximum speed (no load speed) is directly proportional with battery voltage. So at full battery (4.2V per cell) compared to empty cells (3.3V per cell) it is ~79 km/h vs ~63 km/h. And 4.2 / 3.3 = 79 / 62.

Quote

Also, "...it's most certainly not a safe ride speed; there's been reported instances of Riders accelerating hard, still under the limit, with the Wheel cutting out from under them..."

As the alarms are "just" speed dependend, they cannot warn safely from an overlean. If one is near an overlean depends on the speed and the burden (acceleration, incline, wind drag) of the wheel. Additionaly the faster one is going, the less burden the wheel can take.

Quote

Why? Are these accident due to bad quality or just plain physics where the riders have gone mad again and don't follow the speed limits according to the manufacturer? Is there an issue with what GW claims to be a safety limit to ride under but it still isn't (safe)? Why does it cut out when under the limit?

It's not "under the limit" - with an overlean one just "goes along the limit" of the wheel, as shown in the graphs above.

For more detailed infos about overlean take a look at

There are the logs of a KS16B "perfoming" an overlean below tilt back speed...

 

Quote

Basic questions regarding the Tesla V2

1. At what pace/speed is it safe(r) for me to ride the Tesla(Protective gear will be bought of course)

Hard to answer - but mainly the faster one drives the less one is allowed to "burden" the wheel. So at high speed low accelerations. And decreasing the speed before going up an incline.

At low speeds the prob with the high power wheels as the Tesla is, that they can fry the motor cables. So for instance @Marty Backe set with wheellog an 90A alarm for his Gotways and tries to not get that alarm triggered going up inclines. So his wheels stayed (mostly) safe...

Quote

1.  
2. Is the 3rd alarm mentioned the last alarm and is that the critical one that is not meant to pass?
   • what happens when passing that? Is there a tilt back or does it cut off ?

Yes. But as written above - this alarm can also come too late...

... but on the other side, one can pass the 3rd alarm (best on some slight slope going down (?decline?), without headwind) accelerating very slow and carefull on a "perfect" road easily. That's how many GW drivers go for high speed records - and make high speed faceplant records if they try a bit too fast....

 

 

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Chriull

[meepmeepmayer]

There's two components you can overpower:

1. The motor, specifically the motor torque. This is strictly dependent on the speed. The motor has a speed where it has zero torque (the lift speed if you lift the wheel and let it run freely) and the torque goes linearly down to that. So the faster you are, the lower the available torque is. If it's lower than what you demand (like from a sudden pothole at speed), boom.
   The "80%" 3rd alarm (5 beeps - which is just a battery dependent speed alarm, as this thread showed) seems to be derived from the motor torque limitations. The top "lift" speed also depends on the battery charge (voltage really) so the 3rd alarm goes lower with lower battery. For reference, the Tesla lift speed is something like 70kph (guess).
   Unless you're very heavy (you're definitely not at 67kg) the 3rd alarm should very reliably warn you if you get too close to the motor limitations. A ton of people heavier than you (Marty included) ride with the 3rd alarm only and without problems.
2. The battery. That mainly applies to small (2p or 1p) or very empty batteries. I think overleaning a 4p or bigger battery (like the Tesla) is extremely unlikely (unless you try). Especially on Gotways, which are still quite full at "0%", you'll have a really hard time overwhelming the battery.
3. (I guess the combination of dropping voltage from a quick acceleration/pothole and running into the motor limitation at high speed can also occur, but I'd put that under motor limitation aggravated by the voltage drop.)

Most overleans you hear of seem to be high speed motor torque overleans (= people over the official top speed of the wheel), and I guess some people are running into #3 (heavier people or small batteries plus some strong acceleration).

As always, one can overlean any wheel by being crazy enough. Just don't do that

3 hours ago, Azze80 said:

At what pace/speed is it safe(r) for me to ride the Tesla(Protective gear will be bought of course)

50kph is the official top speed and also the 3rd alarm speed at 100% battery (see Jason's post on page 1 - goes down to 39kph at 10% but there the low battery beeps already slowed you down). While I wouldn't go faster, you will be fine at it with your weight. Just never ignore the 3rd alarm if you hear it and use it as a guide for where the wheel's limits are (if you hear it at x kph, then a pothole or quick acceleration at x-2 kph is probably a bad idea).

Looking at the numbers, 40kph seems like a no-brainer perfectly safe speed.

The real danger at this speed really are non-technical crash reasons like that obstacle you didn't see

3 hours ago, Azze80 said:

How many alarms does the Tesla have and what do they mean?

This came up just recently: click.

You can be perfectly safe with essentially only the 3rd alarm.

3 hours ago, Azze80 said:

Is the 3rd alarm mentioned the last alarm and is that the critical one that is not meant to pass?

• what happens when passing that? Is there a tilt back or does it cut off ?

Yes. Don't ignore your (possibly) only alarm. See above for the details.

3 hours ago, Azze80 said:

Are there any reasons to doubt Mosfet/cable/board/motor or other components in Tesla when compared to other wheels?

No. Tons of Tesla riders, no notable reported issues in comparison to other wheels.

3 hours ago, Azze80 said:

Are there statistic info from dealers where owners have reported what challenges and issues they've had? 

No. No non-misleading ones.

The important thing: no brand wheel (Gotway or otherwise) is even remotely known for just cutting out mid-ride for no good reason. Otherwise nobody would ride it.

-

You seem to doubt the safety of riding a Gotway. To be safe, a wheel needs two things:

• Never cut out from sudden unexpected hardware failure. Wheels that people ride, Gotways/Tesla included, don't do that.
• Be as strong as possible. The stronger (higher top speed and bigger battery), the safer.
  The Tesla is much stonger than your KS (or the 16S for example), so it is much safer. Simple as that
• (Some people include their own behavior under safety. E.g. no forced tiltback at top speed or something counts as "unsafe". But that is about self-control, not technical safety.)

The Tesla is perfectly safe for you. Especially you (always envious of the range lighter people will get).

[Azze80]

Omg 😍

Did not expect such a detailed answer🙏🏻! Thanks compadres 🙂👍🏻.

I’ll respond when and if I have further questions. A lot to process

I agree regarding more battery is safer... I wanted to buy the 18xl but felt it was too heavy for me and not as responsive as the Tesla (got to try an 18L for 15min.) Also, maybe my imagination but when the pedals were so low on the Tesla, I felt that the weight was Closer to the ground comparing with the KS which made me feel more confident while riding.

6 hours ago, Chriull said:

At low speeds the prob with the high power wheels as the Tesla is, that they can fry the motor cables. So for instance @Marty Backe set with wheellog an 90A alarm for his Gotways and tries to not get that alarm triggered going up inclines. So his wheels stayed (mostly) safe...

Is this something everyone does? I don’t want to risk burning cables.

Does this mean that the level always should be under 90A for this safety? What’s the process if the level is close to 90a? Just stop riding?

6 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Be as strong as possible. The stronger (higher top speed and bigger battery), the safer.
The Tesla is much stonger than your KS (or the 16S for example), so it is much safer. Simple as that

Love this comment! 😎 Sold haha 

———

Question, we talk about what stresses the motor and is a burden.... how about slowing down fast during different scenarios? Is there something there I also should consider that decreases the stress on the components?

So much awesome info here!!!🙏🏻

I will check out the graphs later and see if I understand them.

The v10F is starting to get less attractive every second 😂(although I will maybe buy a second wheel later... probably )

I have said it before and I’ll say it again:

”Legend say that wheels are life”

[Chriull]

7 minutes ago, Azze80 said:

I wanted to buy the 18xl but felt it was too heavy for me and not as responsive as the Tesla (got to try an 18L for 15min.) Also, maybe my imagination but when the pedals were so low on the Tesla, I felt that the weight was Closer to the ground comparing with the KS which made me feel more confident while riding.

The low pedals give the "easier" feeling in the beginning and by the better "leverage" make the wheel more responsive.

But one gets used to the higher pedals quite fast - and they have the big advantage to get over obstacles without falling and much better "cornering" (?driving curves?) performance!

So every EUC driver wants high pedals, although they need some experience. Imho.

[Chriull]

On 5/20/2019 at 7:56 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

• The chart with the speed reduction behavior over the battery percentage can be misleading when comparing different manufacturers, especially when considering safety at low battery.
• (But the chart is nice as a quick rider-centric overview how wheels behave because a rider goes by the battery percentage in the app.)
• Why? Because not all wheels have the same correspondence between battery % and battery voltage. But battery voltage tells how full the battery really is and what it can or cannot do, which matters for safety.
•  

As i like this way of showing the tilt-back/3rd Lvl Alarm and there are just the discussions about the KS16X new firmware 1.06 changed tilt-back limits, i tried to extend this kind of diagram for the KS16X-1.06:

@meepmeepmayer: You converted for the KS18XL the battery voltage/charge percent to 100% at 4.2V exactly. Did they change also this upper limit instead of the ~4.1V for 100%?

[meepmeepmayer]

Never heard of a 4.1V 100% limit with Kingsongs (GW has 4.1125V) but that doesn't necessarily mean it's 4.2V confirmed @us69 never complained about my 4.2V though

[Mike Sacristan]

Very nice chart @Chriull.

I thought the 16X went down to 3.15V and not 3.0V though?

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Very nice chart @Chriull.

I thought the 16X went down to 3.15V and not 3.0V though?

I have no idea - just took the 3.0V as with the KS18Xl. Did they change it for the 16X?

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

I have no idea - just took the 3.0V as with the KS18Xl. Did they change it for the 16X?

They did indeed. Don’t remember which thread it was where it was examined.

Magnificent job with the invaluable charts, guys!

[Chriull]

20 hours ago, mrelwood said:

They did indeed. Don’t remember which thread it was where it was examined.

 

Ok - then an updated graph:

100% is assumed 4,1125V average cell voltage for all wheels.

MSX 84/100V with 3.3V == 0%, 3rd level alarm as mentioned in this thread

KS18XL  with 3.0V == 0% . Downto 25% 50 km/h, then linear decrease to 13 km/h at 0%

KS16X (1.06) with 3.15V==0%. Downto 50% 50 km/h, then linear decrease to 25 km/h at 0%.

PS.: Many assumptions - could be very different in reality, especially with new firmwares!

Edited September 5, 2019 by Chriull

[mrelwood]

3rd alarm speeds for the Nikola are still unaccounted for. For my own interest I did a few calculations.

If the Nikola motor is able to do the exact same RMPs that the MSX does, the MSX alarm speeds would translate to 62-47km/h (100-10% battery) for the 100V and 52-40km/h for the 84V Nikola.

If the Nikola motor RPMs would be at the average GW wheel RPMs, the speeds would be 54-42 and 44-35. Sounds low though.

An average of the above ones would place them at 58-44.5 and 48-37.5. This is probably on the pessimistic side of things, but my guess is that the speed thresholds are between the average and the MSX RPMs.

[meepmeepmayer]

The Nikola seems to be faster than the MSX, going by the 3rd alarm. Someone do a lift test please.

[KAY GEE]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

The Nikola seems to be faster than the MSX, going by the 3rd alarm. Someone do a lift test please.

Not in a million years 😜, the Nikola lift test should be in the high 80's while MSX is bout 91-92.

[KiwiRoller]

Hey has anyone done an update to this image with data on the Nikola and the KS16X? I'd love to see it if someone has it...

 

 

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, KiwiRoller said:

 

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

10 hours ago, KiwiRoller said:

Hey has anyone done an update to this image with data on the Nikola and the KS16X? I'd love to see it if someone has it...

I don't see the image. Looks like Google Drive and no permission to be visible, ewheels has that sometimes with their images.

But if you are asking about the speed reduction behavior: we have no official (or reliable unofficial) info on the Nikola top speeds (at 100% and 10% battery, which would give the speed reduction behavior) like for the other wheels. About the 16X, you can ask about its speed reduction behavior in a 16X thread. I think it's just 50kph max speed and the usual speed reduction starting at 25% battery, but maybe a firmware update changed something there.

[AtlasP]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

About the 16X, you can ask about its speed reduction behavior in a 16X thread. I think it's just 50kph max speed and the usual speed reduction starting at 25% battery, but maybe a firmware update changed something there.

I thought people were saying that the 16X and the 2200W 18XL seem to start throttling at 50%, unlike the prior 2000W version of the 18XL which throttled at 25%, and some were speculating it was due to the demands of the 2200 W motor in both of those two specific wheels as opposed to previous KS ones.

I have no dog in this fight/no real knowledge, just repeating something I saw elsewhere on here if it helps point people in the right direction of finding it.

Edited February 5, 2020 by AtlasP