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18XL top speed firmware update?

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It’s great to hear that @Jason McNeil was able to get KingSong to increase the top speed of the 16X to 50kph.

If KingSong has found a way to do this safely, then perhaps they’d be amenable to increasing the top speed of the 18XL from 50kph to 55kph?

Seems odd that their 18-inch wheel goes the same speed as their 16-inch.

It might also be incentive to move some 18XLs who’s sales have likely been affected by the 16X announcement.

55kph would also make it a little more competitive with the MSX.

I’d be fine if 55kph was only available for the top 50% of the battery.

Anyone else interested in a firmware update that would push top speed of the 18XL to 55kph?

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While it technically could support 55kph, that would be really pushing it because there wouldn’t be much spare power left to overcome obstacles like potholes in the case you were to hit one. Even the 84v MSX starts beeping for me (80% motor power being used) at 51kph, and while it can support higher speeds than this, it’s not really advised for that reason. I consider myself an EUC speed demon too, but I always back off when I hear the beep, as I’ve almost crashed due to a sneaky pothole at top speed (luckily I was just barely over the beeping threshold so I was able to catch myself, but I could feel the wheel dip sharply forward). 

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Posted (edited)

I have a Kingsong 18XL that is a recent version, only a couple of weeks old (at least from my perspective since I don't know if it have been stored at the retailer). The Kingsong app allows me to set speed limits and the maximum speed in that setting is 60km/hour. I have read elsewhere (don't remember where) that Kingsong has the same app for all wheels and the app adjust available settings pending on the serial number of the wheel. It might be that more recent versions of their 18XL allows a slightly higher speed than older versions (just my guess).

I thought this information might be of interest in this thread. For me personally it makes no difference. I have the third speed alarm at 20km/hour and the tilt back speed at 23km/hour :)

Edited by Enthusiast
Corrected a spelling error

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11 minutes ago, Enthusiast said:

I have a Kingsong 18XL that is a recent version, only a couple of weeks old (at least from my perspective since I don't know if it have been stored at the retailer). The Kingsong app allows me to set speed limits and the maximum speed in that setting is 60km/hour. I have read elsewhere (don't remember where) that Kingsong has the same app for all wheels and the app adjust available settings pending on the serial number of the wheel. It might be that more recent versions of their 18XL allows a slightly higher speed than older versions (just my guess).

I thought this information might be of interest in this thread. For me personally it makes no difference. I have the third speed alarm at 20km/hour and the tilt back speed at 23km/hour :)

wow that is painfully slow, you must have a lot of patience.. the 5 km waiting to unlock my XL to 40 was excruciating lol, and even that is too slow.. on the plus side you must have ridiculously good mileage haha. the app does go up to 60 for some reason, but if you were to set it to that it would simply revert back down to 50 right after... the option is there for a firmware update to increase speed for sure, but i cant see them ever doing it, because what might be mosty safe for a 150 lb rider, would certainly not be nearly as safe for a 250 lb rider, and considering the fact that in general people who predominately ride 18" wheels over 16 or 14" wheels are on the heavier side (educated guess) i cant see them ever doing that.. i dont think its weird at all that a 16" wheel would be capable of going the same speed as an 18", quite the contrary... they have the same size motor and battery, but the smaller obviously has a smaller tire, (not in the case of the 16X but the vast majority) are lighter as well.. which makes it require LESS energy to go the same speed.. the reason they attach a firmware locked hard speed limit is to cover the great majority of worst case scenarios to prevent accidents, as every other manufacturer besides gotway does.. gotway only has a soft limit enabled or disabled at your discretion.. so basically, yes it probably would be mostly safe, for most people, in most scenarios.. but as a manufacturer and a company that wants repeat customers, ideally you would like it so your vehicles dont ever cut out, for anybody, in any scenario

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4 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

wow that is painfully slow, you must have a lot of patience.. the 5 km waiting to unlock my XL to 40 was excruciating lol, and even that is too slow.. on the plus side you must have ridiculously good mileage haha. the app does go up to 60 for some reason, but if you were to set it to that it would simply revert back down to 50 right after... the option is there for a firmware update to increase speed for sure, but i cant see them ever doing it, because what might be mosty safe for a 150 lb rider, would certainly not be nearly as safe for a 250 lb rider, and considering the fact that in general people who predominately ride 18" wheels over 16 or 14" wheels are on the heavier side (educated guess) i cant see them ever doing that.. i dont think its weird at all that a 16" wheel would be capable of going the same speed as an 18", quite the contrary... they have the same size motor and battery, but the smaller obviously has a smaller tire, (not in the case of the 16X but the vast majority) are lighter as well.. which makes it require LESS energy to go the same speed.. the reason they attach a firmware locked hard speed limit is to cover the great majority of worst case scenarios to prevent accidents, as every other manufacturer besides gotway does.. gotway only has a soft limit enabled or disabled at your discretion.. so basically, yes it probably would be mostly safe, for most people, in most scenarios.. but as a manufacturer and a company that wants repeat customers, ideally you would like it so your vehicles dont ever cut out, for anybody, in any scenario

OK so you mean that if I tried to set it to 60km/hours, which appear to be possible, the app would change it to 50km/hour? Have you tried this? I have never tried to do that because I am still a newbie. I wonder why the app seem to have the ability to set it to 60km/hours if it is not allowed. I would be more logical to show the maximum speed 50km/hour. I think I will test next time I ride to increase maximum speed simply to see what happens if I set it to 60 (and after I observed that immediately revert back to my standard turtle speed settings).

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Just now, Enthusiast said:

OK so you mean that if I tried to set it to 60km/hours, which appear to be possible, the app would change it to 50km/hour? Have you tried this? I have never tried to do that because I am still a newbie. I wonder why the app seem to have the ability to set it to 60km/hours if it is not allowed. I would be more logical to show the maximum speed 50km/hour. I think I will test next time I ride to increase maximum speed simply to see what happens if I set it to 60 (and after I observed that immediately revert back to my standard turtle speed settings).

yes and yes. in short, euc apps generally are horrible.. they have multiple, terrible apps, all with different settings, bad translations, problems connecting etc etc.. who the hell knows why it goes up to 60 they don't, nor have they ever made anything that will go that speed, and I can't see them doing it anytime soon.. btw only one of their apps shows a max speed of 60, and shows it across all vehicles, their other apps will show the current firmware limit of the vehicle it's connected to as the top speed.. perhaps an oversight, perhaps a translation error, or just because lol.. couldn't tell ya. yea you can try just to see, the second you hit confirm it will revert to the firmware allowed max speed of 50.. otherwise, you could connect a ks14d and set it to 60 kmph lmao, if you connect to a 14 it will show 60 but then revert to 30, a 16s will show 60 and revert to 35 yada yada

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Posted (edited)
On 3/29/2019 at 1:55 PM, Asphalt said:

It’s great to hear that @Jason McNeil was able to get KingSong to increase the top speed of the 16X to 50kph.

If KingSong has found a way to do this safely, then perhaps they’d be amenable to increasing the top speed of the 18XL from 50kph to 55kph?

Seems odd that their 18-inch wheel goes the same speed as their 16-inch.

It might also be incentive to move some 18XLs who’s sales have likely been affected by the 16X announcement.

55kph would also make it a little more competitive with the MSX.

I’d be fine if 55kph was only available for the top 50% of the battery.

Anyone else interested in a firmware update that would push top speed of the 18XL to 55kph?

in my opinion, the reason ks was hesitant to allow 50 is almost purely down to the fact that it's a 16" wheel.. 18" wheels are more stable, can overcome obstacles much easier, and are less susceptible to minor user errors than their smaller, more twitchy counterparts.. I do not believe the XL will ever be increased, with the large tire and weight of the unit it would be asking for too much if for example you were 250 lbs and on a 60% charge, sure a 130 lb rider on 90% battery could easily get away with it, but that's not how they operate.. kingsong is generally heralded as the king of safety for a reason.. they put user safety ahead of adrenaline, and give themselves a very large margin relatively.. cutouts are basically a thing of the past for all but those whose intention it is to push past the limits. but as we all know money talks and of course ewheels being the largest provider for North America, they have a certain amount of leeway (Jason commissioned the XL pedals due to the huge demand in North America), at least for the units destined to them.. I'm pretty sure if you were to buy one direct, it would be locked to 45, unless they see a largely increasing demand... anything is possible though ks is seemingly slowly moving away from being the overly cautious one who let's gotway take care of the adrenaline junkies to trying to appease all euc riders (although I don't believe they will ever offer an option to bypass a firmware locked speed) so I suppose if that little bit of speed at the risk of a cutout is worth it that's up to the user to decide on their gotway xD you can look up plenty of videos of people going 55+ on their MSX'.. and you can also look up people cutting out at those speeds too lol.. try to find any video of a ks18 cutting out :p

Edited by Rywokast

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I am a safety nerd and I feel safe going with Kingsong for now. It's a no brainer for me :)

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1 minute ago, Enthusiast said:

I am a safety nerd and I feel safe going with Kingsong for now. It's a no brainer for me :)

all the power to you, I applaud your approach :-) I will say however, imo sub 30 kmph is much more fun on a 14" wheel :p but then again we all have different ride styles, I absolutely love the super thin, twitchy reactive feel of a 14" wheel.. but sometimes you just want something to get you from point A to point B with no broken bones xD I guess for me I have the mindset of no risk, no fun haha

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I may consider going faster than 20 km/hour when I get more experience but with my current level of experience I simply want to get distance in my legs in a very safe way (and also my protective knee and elbow pads has not yet arrived). I can feel that i get better at this by the day.

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I also tested today and sliding the tilt back speed to 60 km/hour makes it revert to 50 when you save settings. Hence, max speed for my 18XL is 50 (which is more than enough for my needs).

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34 minutes ago, Enthusiast said:

I may consider going faster than 20 km/hour when I get more experience but with my current level of experience I simply want to get distance in my legs in a very safe way (and also my protective knee and elbow pads has not yet arrived). I can feel that i get better at this by the day.

This is the way to go ! Safety first !  I'm EUC user for now almost 5 years... I was Solowheel user so that was max 20km/h and I never understood that talks about 'we need something with bigger speed limits'... Now with KS18L I can do 60km/h but I setup the fist beep to 25km/h and 2nd to 28km/h and then 30km/h... This is to keep me going over 25km/h only on some very special occasions. Maybe this is because I'm in a big city where the top speed is limited by traffic... But yes, safety is the most important for me.

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I agree with the safety sentiment. I’m always wearing helmet, wrist guards, knee & elbow pads, and will put on a motorcycle jacket if I’m traveling into uncharted territory. So safety is a priority for me.

I rarely go above 40kph, but knowing that I can safely hit 50/55kph gives me confidence that I have the option to get out of tricky situations with overtaking speed when the need arises.

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19 minutes ago, US69 said:

Hello all together....

Kingsong has allowed to set the speed on the new 16X for two reason: It is safely possible as the first and most important reason.

As Second can be named that the demand for this is/was there and a lot of people ask for 50kmh instead of 45kmh.

 

Will the 18XL be set to a higher speed than 50kmh? Most probably not....

What a lot people forget on these discussion is that those speeds must be doable for all sorts of riders.

The 60kg....AND the big 120kg rider. And then there still has to be a big enough safety margin...to safe up for a hidden pothole.

 

Some blame KS for having this „set tiltback at max speed“ and that you cant get rid of it....but to be honest: It has worked out as wanted.

We all know several max speed cutout videos from other brands....where the rider missed the beeps...or just thought his wheel is capable of doing more. KS really will not let you in the near of these cutout speeds. KS really dont want togo for the fastest....but for one of the safest wheel on the market.

A noble quest indeed. I have seen and experienced, and seen enough cutout faceplant videos to prioritize safe over fast. Bravo KS. 👏👏👏👏👏.

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1 hour ago, US69 said:

Hello all together....

Kingsong has allowed to set the speed on the new 16X for two reason: It is safely possible as the first and most important reason.

As Second can be named that the demand for this is/was there and a lot of people ask for 50kmh instead of 45kmh.

 

Will the 18XL be set to a higher speed than 50kmh? Most probably not....

What a lot people forget on these discussion is that those speeds must be doable for all sorts of riders.

The 60kg....AND the big 120kg rider. And then there still has to be a big enough safety margin...to safe up for a hidden pothole.

 

Some blame KS for having this „set tiltback at max speed“ and that you cant get rid of it....but to be honest: It has worked out as wanted.

We all know several max speed cutout videos from other brands....where the rider missed the beeps...or just thought his wheel is capable of doing more. KS really will not let you in the near of these cutout speeds. KS really dont want togo for the fastest....but for one of the safest wheel on the market.

thanks for backing me up ;) well said

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, US69 said:

...

We all know several max speed cutout videos from other brands....where the rider missed the beeps...

This is my biggest concern on my ACM2.  I currently have the tiltback disabled and a wheellog alarm set for 45kph.  The 80% power alarm can't be disabled which I think is a good thing...but...

When that 80% power alarm kicks in can vary depending on your batteries current level(from what I understand of it).  So at 100%, 80% power alarm may not trigger till 50kph, but at 30%, when will it trigger, what about at 20%?  I haven't ridden that low but when going 40kph it can be hard to hear those beeps with the wind in your helmet.  It would be nice to also be able to listen to music without worrying about missing those beeps and face planting.

in addition to attempting to echo the beeps/play the wheel warning over any device connected to the wheel by Bluetooth...

I wish, instead of disabling tiltback, gotway gave you these two options:

1: set the tiltback to either kick in at a set speed or at 80% power where whichever is hit first triggers it

or

2: disable tilt back all together for any specific speed but leave tiltback enable for when the 80% alarm is triggered.

Tiltback can be jarring to some I've heard, but you could have a soft slower tiltback that gets more aggressive if the use keeps trying to push through it.  If it started tilting back at 80% slowly then it could do so in a way that slowly reduces your speed without tipping you off the back.  

Honestly even a jarring tiltback is better than a cutout if it's about to get to that point.  With a tiltback you have some feedback and warning, "ahhhh crap, my wheel is tilting me back" and can prepare for a worse case scenario and mentally position yourself to respond.  But with a cutout...no time to respond just smack into the ground.

Edited by Heyzeus
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19 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

This is my biggest concern on my ACM2.  I currently have the tiltback disabled and a wheellog alarm set for 45kph.  The 80% power alarm can't be disabled which I think is a good thing...but...

When that 80% power alarm kicks in can vary depending on your batteries current level(from what I understand of it).  So at 100%, 80% power alarm may not trigger till 50kph, but at 30%, when will it trigger, what about at 20%?  I haven't ridden that low but when going 40kph it can be hard to hear those beeps with the wind in your helmet.  It would be nice to also be able to listen to music without worrying about missing those beeps and face planting.

in addition to attempting to echo the beeps/play the wheel warning over any device connected to the wheel by Bluetooth...

I wish, instead of disabling tiltback, gotway gave you these two options:

1: set the tiltback to either kick in at a set speed or at 80% power where whichever is hit first triggers it

or

2: disable tilt back all together for any specific speed but leave tiltback enable for when the 80% alarm is triggered.

Tiltback can be jarring to some I've heard, but you could have a soft slower tiltback that gets more aggressive if the use keeps trying to push through it.  If it started tilting back at 80% slowly then it could do so in a way that slowly reduces your speed without tipping you off the back.  

Honestly even a jarring tiltback is better than a cutout if it's about to get to that point.  With a tiltback you have some feedback and warning, "ahhhh crap, my wheel is tilting me back" and can prepare for a worse case scenario and mentally position yourself to respond.  But with a cutout...no time to respond just smack into the ground.

Gotway’s tiltback is nice and gradual imo, but I also wish it decreased with battery percentage. Ideally, the wheel would use the app to notify you when the beeper was sounding. Even after installing a second beeper in my ACM2, it still isn’t loud enough. I’ve been thinking of mounting the beeper externally or somehow adding hardware that sends a bluetooth signal when the beeper is sounding. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Nick McCutcheon said:

Gotway’s tiltback is nice and gradual imo, but I also wish it decreased with battery percentage. Ideally, the wheel would use the app to notify you when the beeper was sounding. Even after installing a second beeper in my ACM2, it still isn’t loud enough. I’ve been thinking of mounting the beeper externally or somehow adding hardware that sends a bluetooth signal when the beeper is sounding. 

how did you go about installing a second beeper, did you just buy another got way beeper and splice the wires into the other ones wires.

I think I need to replace my beeper at some point, the sound it gives off is not nearly as loud as my mcm4. Sometimes it will be a lower volume and tinny and other times it will be loud like I would expect it to be, I think it's partly blown out or just defective (assuming there isn't some connection issue causing it).

Adding hardware that sends a Bluetooth signal when the beeper is sounding would be a cool mod.  Some Bluetooth transponder that sends a audio signal of your choice when it notices current on the beeper lines.

Edited by Heyzeus

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1 hour ago, Heyzeus said:

how did you go about installing a second beeper, did you just buy another got way beeper and splice the wires into the other ones wires.

Yep, in parallel. I got a 5-pack off amazon, they look and sound the exact same except the plastic is black instead of white. Though for some reason I've noticed this makes it louder when the side panel it open, but quieter when it's closed, and I have no idea why this is.

I think I need to replace my beeper at some point, the sound it gives off is not nearly as loud as my mcm4. Sometimes it will be a lower volume and tinny and other times it will be loud like I would expect it to be, I think it's partly blown out or just defective (assuming there isn't some connection issue causing it).

Weird. Mine sort of acts like that, but I think the ACM shell just doesn't allow much sound to pass through. My Monster beeps louder, even though they have the exact same beeper.

Adding hardware that sends a Bluetooth signal when the beeper is sounding would be a cool mod.  Some Bluetooth transponder that sends a audio signal of your choice when it notices current on the beeper lines.

Yeah, I haven't looked into it yet but I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible. Just use the USB 5v power to power some sort of chip that connects to a matching chip (using an arduino may make things easier) outside of the wheel, and writing some code to get it to all work, would be one way to go.

 

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2 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

This is my biggest concern on my ACM2.  I currently have the tiltback disabled and a wheellog alarm set for 45kph.  The 80% power alarm can't be disabled which I think is a good thing...but...

When that 80% power alarm kicks in can vary depending on your batteries current level(from what I understand of it).  So at 100%, 80% power alarm may not trigger till 50kph, but at 30%, when will it trigger, what about at 20%?  I haven't ridden that low but when going 40kph it can be hard to hear those beeps with the wind in your helmet.  It would be nice to also be able to listen to music without worrying about missing those beeps and face planting.

in addition to attempting to echo the beeps/play the wheel warning over any device connected to the wheel by Bluetooth...

I wish, instead of disabling tiltback, gotway gave you these two options:

1: set the tiltback to either kick in at a set speed or at 80% power where whichever is hit first triggers it

or

2: disable tilt back all together for any specific speed but leave tiltback enable for when the 80% alarm is triggered.

Tiltback can be jarring to some I've heard, but you could have a soft slower tiltback that gets more aggressive if the use keeps trying to push through it.  If it started tilting back at 80% slowly then it could do so in a way that slowly reduces your speed without tipping you off the back.  

Honestly even a jarring tiltback is better than a cutout if it's about to get to that point.  With a tiltback you have some feedback and warning, "ahhhh crap, my wheel is tilting me back" and can prepare for a worse case scenario and mentally position yourself to respond.  But with a cutout...no time to respond just smack into the ground.

couple of solutions.. one you can just use wheellog and set it to make your phone go off and vibrate at 80% power.. whether youll hear/feel that or not depends.. or, you could buy a pebble watch and put wheellog on it, that way the watch will actually buzz and warn you and youll get a visual display also.. it depends on your weight idk about you but for me i always have headphones in at all times, beeps will never be heard lol.. from 100%-80% i went below 50, 80-50 i went 40 ish, and 50-20 i stayed at or below 35.. i never ride below 20% battery on any wheel unless completely unavoidable, but using this method i have never had any problems whatsoever.. im 120 lbs riding so you can try to extrapolate from that haha 

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The fact that KS initially wanted to rate the 16X as a 45kph wheel, but were then persuaded to make it 50kph, shows that they’re comfortable pushing their margin of safety, probably recognizing that they were being too safe at the cost of performance that many of their customers wanted.

Let’s say that the cutoff speed for a 200lb rider on a 16X is 60kph. Previously KS had a 15kph buffer, which was overly safe. Now they’re okay with a 10kph buffer, which is still safe.

The 18XL speed limit was set in the 15kph safety buffer era. It should be updated as an option for this new 10kph safety buffer era.

Also, it should be reasonable to expect that an 18-inch wheel would be 10% faster than a 16-inch, given the same motor, since the distance traveled per rotation is about 10% more.

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1 minute ago, Asphalt said:

The fact that KS initially wanted to rate the 16X as a 45kph wheel, but were then persuaded to make it 50kph, shows that they’re comfortable pushing their margin of safety, probably recognizing that they were being too safe at the cost of performance that many of their customers wanted.

Let’s say that the cutoff speed for a 200lb rider on a 16X is 60kph. Previously KS had a 15kph buffer, which was overly safe. Now they’re okay with a 10kph buffer, which is still safe.

The 18XL speed limit was set in the 15kph safety buffer era. It should be updated as an option for this new 10kph safety buffer era.

Also, it should be reasonable to expect that an 18-inch wheel would be 10% faster than a 16-inch, given the same motor, since the distance traveled per rotation is about 10% more.

yes the distance traveled per rotation would be more, but the amount of energy required to get that rotation would also be more... i think they could do it, if they wanted to.. but i dont think they would be comfortable with that buffer.. seeing as the thing is rated for a rider of up to 325 lbs safely.. thats a lot of weight to push around haha

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30 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

couple of solutions.. one you can just use wheellog and set it to make your phone go off and vibrate at 80% power.. whether youll hear/feel that or not depends.. or, you could buy a pebble watch and put wheellog on it, that way the watch will actually buzz and warn you and youll get a visual display also.. it depends on your weight idk about you but for me i always have headphones in at all times, beeps will never be heard lol.. from 100%-80% i went below 50, 80-50 i went 40 ish, and 50-20 i stayed at or below 35.. i never ride below 20% battery on any wheel unless completely unavoidable, but using this method i have never had any problems whatsoever.. im 120 lbs riding so you can try to extrapolate from that haha 

Yeah I have wheellog and a pebble watch and that's what I use to let me know when I am over 45kmh, only have the one speed alarm set though at any thing below 100% and a current alarm.

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15 minutes ago, Heyzeus said:

Yeah I have wheellog and a pebble watch and that's what I use to let me know when I am over 45kmh, only have the one speed alarm set though at any thing below 100% and a current alarm.

oh you already have it.. well thats as safe as youll get without automatic tiltback lol.. its too bad wheellog doesnt let you configure tiltback based on battery level, that way you could use the watch to gauge a safe speed at 50,40,30 etc and just set it to that

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