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Mossi

KS18XL problem to build up speed

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Hello everyone, I own the XL for about a month now and at first I was really satisfied. Now I notice that it feels like it's getting harder and harder to build up speed. My weight is 180 lbs, my shoes are size 11,5 US (47 EU) and I attached the bigger pedals. I calibrated the wheel several times but that dit nothing to the problem. Most of the time I am not able to achieve top speed (40 kph even though I set it to 50 kph in the app but it won't go any faster than 40 due to tiltback). I really have to put my weight far infront of the wheel which is very dangerous. Uphill or with headwind I can only go around 10 kph. Even downhill I have to lean forward to hold the speed. I am pretty sure that it wasn't this way from the beginning. The wheel is calibrated correctly. When it stands still it won't move. In corners the pedals won't dip or pop up like they do when calibrating the wheel leaning against a wall. On really slow speed the wheel feels fine but to accelerate I have to lean forward in a way that it feels like I will take a flight if I hit a bump.

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Is this your first wheel?

In theory, the wheel refusing to accelerate can't happen. Either it must accelerate when you lean forward, or you'd fall on your face. So unless you actually fall off at low speeds because the wheel just doesn't keep up, it can't be that.

Not sure what's going on. Is it secretly tilting back? Low tire pressure? Is the tire rotating normally when it's off? Batteries look ok and wheel is charged? How sure are you that the wheel behaved differently when you first got it?

Did you use a third party app like Wheellog or Darknessbot? It might inadvertently have set a low speed tiltback. Or accidentally set a softer ride mode which confuses you? That could have happened simply by connecting an app.

Connect your official KingSong app, (re)set all speed limits to normal values, (re)set the ride mode, and try it without connecting any other app. That's my best guess.

Alternatively, @houseofjob helped a rider who had a similar problem (maybe) and it was rider error (he never told us what exactly).

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You mention tilt-back but it's not clear if tilt-back is what's keeping you from going faster than 10-kph too.  If the issue is entirely tilt-back related, then maybe you have tilt-back set too low in the app.

Otherwise it's impossible for a wheel not to go as fast as you want (within the power limitations of the wheel).

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32 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Alternatively, @houseofjob helped a rider who had a similar problem (maybe) and it was rider error (he never told us what exactly).

LOL, you mean the Tesla newbie guy who swore his wheel was defective?

I think I did report back, but the forum is so all over the place, might've missed it,.... but his wheel was totally normal :lol::lol:

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1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

LOL, you mean the Tesla newbie guy who swore his wheel was defective?

I think I did report back, but the forum is so all over the place, might've missed it,.... but his wheel was totally normal :lol::lol:

Yeah, I remember that and you did report back. I think it was very nice that you were able to help him. It can be difficult when you are learning, are by yourself, and have no reference points.

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Yeah, I remember that and you did report back. I think it was very nice that you were able to help him. It can be difficult when you are learning, are by yourself, and have no reference points.

Yes, I'm a sucker for a newbie in need :lol:

BTW, I have no clue what happened to the guy after the encounter (he did kindly offer me a drink, but I was famished that day, wanted to get back home). Seems to be an increasing phenomenon here, increasing number of NYC EUC newbies who stick to themselves and only pop-up when they encounter issues (not that that's bad).

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1 minute ago, houseofjob said:

Yes, I'm a sucker for a newbie in need :lol:

BTW, I have no clue what happened to the guy after the encounter (he did kindly offer me a drink, but I was famished that day, wanted to get back home). Seems to be an increasing phenomenon here, increasing number of NYC EUC newbies who stick to themselves and only pop-up when they encounter issues (not that that's bad).

There appears to be an ever growing group of EUCers here in Southern California. But as in NYC, they seem to be sticking to themselves :blink1:

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Mossi said:

In corners the pedals won't dip or pop up like they do when calibrating the wheel leaning against a wall.

I don't fully understand this statement. At any rate, you should not calibrate the wheel while leaning against a wall. the wheel needs to be level side to side and front to back ( or at preferd riding angle - front to back)  finding a level floor and setting it on two equal blocks works nice. Otherwise you can end up with some odd wheel behavior. 

The XL cannot be set above 40 km/h until you have clocked over 200 km on it. 

You have to offset the balance of the wheel to move. Some people bend at the waist and think that they are leaning forward when all that they are doing is bending over. One guy said that he could lean so far that he could touch the ground and the wheel would only go 5 mph tops. I got my wheel out and sure enough if you bend over as if you are going to pick up a penny you will go about 5 mph. 

Edited by RockyTop
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13 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

I don't fully understand this statement.

He means the pedal dipping that can happen if you calibrate your wheel while it is leaning sideways, and is telling us this is NOT the problem.

14 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

You have to offset the balance of the wheel to move. Some people bend at the waist and think that they are leaning forward when all that they are doing is bending over. One guy said that he could lean so far that he could touch the ground and the wheel would only go 5 mph tops. I got my wheel out and sure enough if you bend over as if you are going to pick up a penny you will go about 5 mph. 

That's a great explanation (if it really is rider error).

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1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

He means the pedal dipping that can happen if you calibrate your wheel while it is leaning sideways, and is telling us this is NOT the problem.

Exactly.

17 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

You have to offset the balance of the wheel to move. Some people bend at the waist and think that they are leaning forward when all that they are doing is bending over. One guy said that he could lean so far that he could touch the ground and the wheel would only go 5 mph tops. I got my wheel out and sure enough if you bend over as if you are going to pick up a penny you will go about 5 mph.  

Thats not the problem, all I bend is my knees. The problem is the amount of force that I have to apply to drive faster. I didn't try to lean over a certain point because it feels like the wheel wouldn't catch up and I fall over infront. I wish the wheel would respont more sensitive to by body movement. 

 

24 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

The XL cannot be set above 40 km/h until you have clocked over 200 km on it. 

I have over 500 km on my wheel and it is set to 50 kph properly. If I hadn't enough mileage I couln't set it to 50.

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5 minutes ago, Mossi said:

Thats not the problem, all I bend is my knees. The problem is the amount of force that I have to apply to drive faster. I didn't try to lean over a certain point because it feels like the wheel wouldn't catch up and I fall over infront. I wish the wheel would respont more sensitive to by body movement. 

OK, You do not have conference that the wheel will go faster and catch you. I would try the different wheel settings as @meepmeepmayer said earlier. Also I would carefully get a better more aggressive feel of the wheel at slower speeds.  The tire pressure can also change things drastically. The pressure will drop quite a bit in a month and the ride changes.  This is something that drove me nuts my first few months on a wheel.

 

14 minutes ago, Mossi said:

I have over 500 km on my wheel and it is set to 50 kph properly. If I hadn't enough mileage I couln't set it to 50.

.  Depends on the app you are using. 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Mossi said:

Thats not the problem, all I bend is my knees. The problem is the amount of force that I have to apply to drive faster. I didn't try to lean over a certain point because it feels like the wheel wouldn't catch up and I fall over infront. I wish the wheel would respont more sensitive to by body movement. 

This how I use my large pedals (this was not really possible with standard pedals).....it might explain your "issue".

At the beginning I had to be standing with both feet at excat same distance from edge to avoid speed wobbles. 

Now syand with left foot on front edge and right foot on read edge of the pedeals. There are 2 main reasons for this. First of I am not equal strong on my legs. So despite having a bad knee this is still my strong leg that I have best balance on. This mean if I  am to break hard I can better apply the needed force. So this leads me to have a speefer and a break pedal. Secondly it leads to I can have my speeding footore upfront on pedal meaning I don't have to apply the same force. It also mean the going uphill I stand more on the front edge with both feets. And the oppersite going downhill I stand towards rear edge on pedals. I hope this makes sense to you.

It should be fairly easy to record this with the kingsong app and you have both feet stand recorded with speed overlay. 

Don't look at the phone while recording. But review after you have ridden a length and the go back.

Focus on shifting feed and do a new recording. Then feel what happens and review recordings afterwards. I found riding with a fullface mc helmet with visor down I very easy loose sensation of speed. Opening visor a tiny bit, I hear and feel winds rushing through my helmet and hear outside sounds better.

A long post but I  hope this helps.

Edited by Unventor
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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

There appears to be an ever growing group of EUCers here in Southern California. But as in NYC, they seem to be sticking to themselves :blink1:

You need to get @Hunka Hunka Burning Love make you a t-shirt saying "I am EUC friendly, hug me".

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Posted (edited)
On 3/28/2019 at 9:28 PM, RockyTop said:

At any rate, you should not calibrate the wheel while leaning against a wall. the wheel needs to be level front to back and side to side.

A small correction so that misinformation doesn't spread.  The wheel has to be level side to side, yes, but it DOES NOT have to be level front to back.  One of the two reasons for calibration is so that the rider can choose a different neutral angle for the pedals.  If someone likes a 3 degree lean back, then they set the wheel leaning back three degrees and keep it that way during the calibration process.   Once you get the continuous beep, your new "level" is baked in, until drift or a new calibration takes place.

An additional note about calibration and blocks.  If you use the block method (Both pedal arms standing on level blocks) people have talked about the wheel spinning once it comes off the ground.  This may be true if you pick up the wheel before the calibration process has been started (as the wheel is in balance mode and will try to balance) but once you enter calibration mode the wheel becomes dead and it wont spin.  It becomes dead because it is waiting for you to select your preferred pedal angle (front to back) and it cannot do this AND balance at the same time.

So, if you are using the block method, I suggest you make sure the blocks themselves are level (side to side) and also build in your preferred front back angle, then start the calibration process, then put the wheel on the blocks.  Once on there and sitting pretty (a good idea to put a round bubble level (or App) on the wheel to confirm all angles are to your liking), THEN push the button to finish the calibration.

This description may not be 100% procedurally accurate ( I haven't calibrated in over, a year,, despite riding several times a week, and don't feel like calibrating for nothing and risking messing it up)  But Hopefully you will recognize the steps in the process when you do your calibration.

Edited by Smoother
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Update: I tried performance mode and it's much better now. I read the hardest mode would it make harder to go uphill but I would say it's the opposite. For me it seems easyer now and I am able to reach top speed. Maybe on the softer mode you have to put the wheel on a harder angle (don't know how to say it in english) and maybe it doesn't do it on it's own, so you have to apply more pressure. Maybe this is not true, it's just a declaration trial. I feel like rider mode has softened over time and I have to apply a pressure that I can't deliver, even if I stay more in the front. Now in the harder mode it's better. I don't have to put my weight infront of the wheel to go over 20 kph like yesterday in rider mode. I still wish it would react more sensitiv to weight shifting but I can live with it like it is now. I just hope I won't lose to much range.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Mossi said:

I just hope I won't lose to much range.

I don’t think you will notice any range difference.  Weight of rider, hills/ terrain, tire pressure, speed and aggressiveness make the biggest difference.

GotWay wheels might be a different story. 

Edited by RockyTop

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Be careful. Make sure everything is really ok. You should also be able to accelerate in soft mode.

The question is, did the wheel behavior change on its own? That is always a big warning sign. Make sure your problem was only the ride mode.

If it's a broken capacitor, next time you'll fall on your face.

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On 3/29/2019 at 5:22 PM, Mossi said:

Update: I tried performance mode and it's much better now. I read the hardest mode would it make harder to go uphill but I would say it's the opposite. For me it seems easyer now and I am able to reach top speed. Maybe on the softer mode you have to put the wheel on a harder angle (don't know how to say it in english) and maybe it doesn't do it on it's own, so you have to apply more pressure. Maybe this is not true, it's just a declaration trial. I feel like rider mode has softened over time and I have to apply a pressure that I can't deliver, even if I stay more in the front. Now in the harder mode it's better. I don't have to put my weight infront of the wheel to go over 20 kph like yesterday in rider mode. I still wish it would react more sensitiv to weight shifting but I can live with it like it is now. I just hope I won't lose to much range.

I am a newbie and started of using default settings including beginners riding mode. It worked fairly well but was a nightmare downhill with serious wobbling that was scary to me. Swapping to experienced mode made the overall riding much easier even for me as a newbie and the wobbling disappeared to 95%. The remaining wobbling is not a problem and only noticeable in fairly steep slopes. I am not sure when the beginners mode (very soft mode) is best, if ever...? 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Enthusiast said:

I am a newbie and started of using default settings including beginners riding mode. It worked fairly well but was a nightmare downhill with serious wobbling that was scary to me. Swapping to experienced mode made the overall riding much easier even for me as a newbie and the wobbling disappeared to 95%. The remaining wobbling is not a problem and only noticeable in fairly steep slopes. I am not sure when the beginners mode (very soft mode) is best, if ever...? 

These modes are miss labeled. They are simply soft, medium, and hard.  I ride in all three, and I'm an experienced rider; so obviously "beginner" mode is miss labeled

BTW I have no problem riding, accelerating or braking an any mode.  If anything, I think I accelerate quicker in beginner mode, because I am able to get my body weight out in front, forcing the wheel to play a bit of catch up. (but I may just be imagining this)

I'm not sure where this "my wheel barely moves in beginner mode" is coming from.  But mine is a 16" wheel.  Still, no one else is reporting unmovable 18" wheels in beginner mode.

Any experienced 18" riders want to experiment and report back?

Edited by Smoother

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On 3/28/2019 at 1:59 PM, Marty Backe said:

There appears to be an ever growing group of EUCers here in Southern California. But as in NYC, they seem to be sticking to themselves :blink1:

I guess some people treat EUCs as cars. They just buy it and ride it. No need to join the plethora of car forums out there. I've run into EUCers who've been riding for years and know nothing of the forum. (They weren't the nicest people to interact with either). It also doesn't help that the guy that used to work with Jason is still here in San Diego building/fixing/selling wheels for people. 

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18 minutes ago, Flyboy10 said:

It also doesn't help that the guy that used to work with Jason is still here in San Diego building/fixing/selling wheels for people. 

I don't understand this statement.  Does it require inside information?

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Posted (edited)
On 3/29/2019 at 6:22 PM, Mossi said:

Update: I tried performance mode and it's much better now. I read the hardest mode would it make harder to go uphill but I would say it's the opposite. For me it seems easyer now and I am able to reach top speed. Maybe on the softer mode you have to put the wheel on a harder angle (don't know how to say it in english) and maybe it doesn't do it on it's own, so you have to apply more pressure. Maybe this is not true, it's just a declaration trial. I feel like rider mode has softened over time and I have to apply a pressure that I can't deliver, even if I stay more in the front. Now in the harder mode it's better. I don't have to put my weight infront of the wheel to go over 20 kph like yesterday in rider mode. I still wish it would react more sensitiv to weight shifting but I can live with it like it is now. I just hope I won't lose to much range.

For me it's the opposite, I can't get my KS16S to accelerate uphill in the hardest mode without standing tip-toed on the pedals, but I guess that's mostly due to my weight, the motor is "too strong" and I can't cause enough offset in the angle :D Usually I ride in the medium mode (forgot what it's called), and the problem went away. Btw, the way I lean forwards resembles a skijumper in flight:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHFlb3MlYHtpoK7RNRtZi

Knees, back and hip/waist straight, hands typically to sides. The wheel will follow.

Edited by esaj
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5 minutes ago, esaj said:

For me it's the opposite, I can't get my KS16S to accelerate uphill in the hardest mode without standing tip-toed on the pedals,

Have you tried moving forward on the pedals for these hills? or are the small pedals a limiting factor?  I'm so used to my Big Foot pedals I forget (thankfully) the issues with tiny factory pedals.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Have you tried moving forward on the pedals for these hills? or are the small pedals a limiting factor?  I'm so used to my Big Foot pedals I forget (thankfully) the issues with tiny factory pedals.

Moving forwards or tip-toeing helps, because it moves the center of gravity further in front of the wheel, but it feels like I'm about to fall off from them. I've grown to like the medium-mode, the slight give in pedals both in acceleration/hill climbing and braking is actually pretty nice, as it gives better grip and no need to bend my ankles as much. Bigger pedals wouldn't hurt though.

Edited by esaj

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